If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

reply to post by Greatest I am


Here is my perspective, similar perhaps to others?

God = Perfect... maybe not.

1. A perfect being is identified by their products, they are perfect. If a cabinet maker is perfect, its all perfect. That is the ONLY thing a perfect being can produce..perfection
2. If something produced is imperfect then either the creator is perfect and intentionally created something imperfect; OR, they are not perfect by proof of imperfect products.
3. If a perfect being created an imperfect item on purpose and allowed imperfect things to be replicated. then perfection cannot be.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
Read Genesis. I will give you a hint free will and sin.

He has.

Standard issue mainstream responses such as yours and others, despite the unwarranted stars they get, won't impress the OP much, I wager. But hey keep trying if that's what floats yer boat.

/shrug

edit on 5-8-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Now you know why most church hierarchies are pushing to get more apologists out here. Because of our two fools here who forget that most non-Christians know more of their screwed up theology than they do.

Don't try to improve them. They make my job so much easier to impress all the young lurkers who are undecided and who see that they cannot answer simple questions.

They are patting themselves on the back when it is you and I who should be thanking them.

Many kudos lads.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by MuMuMu

Originally posted by greavsie1971
reply to post by MuMuMu

 

My copy of the bible (KJV) states that God thought the creation of man was 'very good' not 'perfect'

Can you tell me which translation states it was perfect? I'm not disputing it , just interested.

I have no idea. I do not believe in the fallen man concept nor most of the Bible. It is not my experience spiritually, personally and clinically that there exists nothing except imperfect, improving souls.

Yes and no but you have me curious.

Care to try a small thinking experiment?
I think you might do better than most.

I like to use the term evolving perfection for nature. Otherwise, a perfect God or nature becomes a stagnant pool of information and our souls and consciousness as a part of that perfection would be useless to the universe.

Evolving, the perfection of whatever God and nature was, to whatever God and nature will be, means we have to think this way, unless you see God as somehow losing his initial perfection. This is not allowed in a perfect God’s or natures repertoire.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle and pure logic.

What do you think?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

www.youtube.com...

This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

Regards
DL

I have never met nor shall I a perfect man. I hope to meet a perfect spirit and eventually become one. I have never met a man or a spirit in my 40yrs of clinical practice that was born with sin requiring redeeming. I see imperfect souls constantly who are in need, and receive, assistance in advancing spiritually bu this is accomplished not by a 2nd Coming or direct divine intervention but by reincarnation and education.

Originally posted by greavsie1971
reply to post by MuMuMu

 

Sorry my bad, that reply was meant for the OP.

Just read the O P. The quote is there. I do my work ahead of time.
I also answered this just above.

But if you want to think your incompetent God only does good work and not perfect work, it would explain how his plan can be fouled up from the get go.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by guitarplayer
You need to start at the beginning not in the middle or the end of the bible. God created man and woman perfectly yet they were seduced by the serpent (satan) and fell from grace. Christ was not murdered as you say He laid His life down as a perfect sacrifice. He laid it down and took it back up again. Those who are carnally minded cannot perceive spiritual things.

That is counter to what Jesus said.
He basically said that all spiritual things happen in our minds. They are carnal minds.

Can you tell us why God, who gave Satan the power to deceive the whole earth and whom Eve could not possibly resist, put Satan right there beside Eve?

Or is that too spiritual for you to handle?

IOW. Why did God put the fox in the henhouse with the hens?

To your comment on Jesus, is suicide a moral thing to do?

Do you think it moral to perform or embrace human sacrifice?

Spiritually speaking of course.
I will try real hard to understand you.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by HanzHenry
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Here is my perspective, similar perhaps to others?

God = Perfect... maybe not.

1. A perfect being is identified by their products, they are perfect. If a cabinet maker is perfect, its all perfect. That is the ONLY thing a perfect being can produce..perfection
2. If something produced is imperfect then either the creator is perfect and intentionally created something imperfect; OR, they are not perfect by proof of imperfect products.
3. If a perfect being created an imperfect item on purpose and allowed imperfect things to be replicated. then perfection cannot be.

Good logic.

If you are right with your --- "God = Perfect... maybe not.", then this would be a lie. Right?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

That would also mean that Omni-max God is not Omni-max at all. Right?

Regards
DL

If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

The same reason the Bible tells us that angels were created out of perfection, but given free will to leave their original state to become fallen angels. You know, they're the same ones you talk to that lead you to misinterpret every scripture you've ever posted.

"The Angels that Abandoned Their Original State"

www.gbchr.org...

Originally posted by Greatest I am

I like to use the term evolving perfection for nature. Otherwise, a perfect God or nature becomes a stagnant pool of information and our souls and consciousness as a part of that perfection would be useless to the universe.

Evolving, the perfection of whatever God and nature was, to whatever God and nature will be, means we have to think this way, unless you see God as somehow losing his initial perfection. This is not allowed in a perfect God’s or natures repertoire.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle and pure logic.

What do you think?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

www.youtube.com...

This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

Regards
DL

Here's what I know from my dealings with advanced beings, spirit guides, angels, etc.

CPT

There is absolutely no fear in the spirit world that the plan (Nature, God, Creator, etc) is perfect. None. There is no doubt that unconditional love drives everything. None. There is no doubt that a spirit can ascend spiritually "back to or towards" the Creator as part of the perfect plan in place. It is your choice how far you ascend, you can set anchor anytime, anywhere in the ethereal plane you desire. No guilt, no questions asked.

How this matches with your thought experiment you can decide. These are the realities I have experienced and work with 200+ hrs monthly since the late 70s.

How did I do?

Originally posted by MuMuMu
I have never met nor shall I a perfect man. I hope to meet a perfect spirit and eventually become one. I have never met a man or a spirit in my 40yrs of clinical practice that was born with sin requiring redeeming. I see imperfect souls constantly who are in need, and receive, assistance in advancing spiritually bu this is accomplished not by a 2nd Coming or direct divine intervention but by reincarnation and education.

Reincarnation. Damn. And I was starting to like you.
I will allow that one imperfection as I think I respect most of what you believe.

Tell us though, why do you believe in reincarnation?
Do you have anything in the way of facts for us?

I am not being a smart ass here. I claim apotheosis and also have nothing that I can show as evidence even as I know I have a personal experience as a fact for myself. No good for anyone else though.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


We were created perfect. We need salvation because we were enlightened to know the difference between good and evil. And since we were not created as robots, but creatures with free will it was not a matter of if, but when we would choose to rebel and sin.

Originally posted by Deetermined

If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

The same reason the Bible tells us that angels were created out of perfection, but given free will to leave their original state to become fallen angels. You know, they're the same ones you talk to that lead you to misinterpret every scripture you've ever posted.

"The Angels that Abandoned Their Original State"

www.gbchr.org...

You might have a point there. Actually, I think it is God's interference that has me drawing the conclusions I do.

God may be causing me to lie.

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.


That aside though, how do you explain God poor showing by losing so many of his angels?
A full third if tradition and dogma holds true.

His angels would also have been perfect. How can perfect angels do anything imperfect like rebel with Satan?

Did they not believe that God was God and if they did, how could they ever think of rejecting him?

Educate us my friend.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Perfection requires wholeness, and wholeness must include imperfection or it is incomplete.

So, perfection without an imperfection is not really perfection.

"Most true things are stated in paradoxes." -Lao Tzu

edit on 5-8-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Not sure if I agree but what do you see as perfect God's imperfection?

Regards
DL

Could you re-phrase your question? I'm having trouble parsing it.

Originally posted by MuMuMu

Originally posted by Greatest I am

I like to use the term evolving perfection for nature. Otherwise, a perfect God or nature becomes a stagnant pool of information and our souls and consciousness as a part of that perfection would be useless to the universe.

Evolving, the perfection of whatever God and nature was, to whatever God and nature will be, means we have to think this way, unless you see God as somehow losing his initial perfection. This is not allowed in a perfect God’s or natures repertoire.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle and pure logic.

What do you think?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

www.youtube.com...

This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

Regards
DL

Here's what I know from my dealings with advanced beings, spirit guides, angels, etc.

CPT

There is absolutely no fear in the spirit world that the plan (Nature, God, Creator, etc) is perfect. None. There is no doubt that unconditional love drives everything. None. There is no doubt that a spirit can ascend spiritually "back to or towards" the Creator as part of the perfect plan in place. It is your choice how far you ascend, you can set anchor anytime, anywhere in the ethereal plane you desire. No guilt, no questions asked.

How this matches with your thought experiment you can decide. These are the realities I have experienced and work with 200+ hrs monthly since the late 70s.

How did I do?

I was thinking that you might recognize that we live in the best of all possible realities so from that POV, I am disappointed.

Unconditional love is a concept I have a hard time with. All religious and political systems of thought are based on old tribal instincts and are exclusionary, not inclusionary the way unconditional love would demand.

What makes you think there is such a thing and if it does exist, love has to be expressed in works and deed so what work and deeds do you see being expressed by whoever is doing this unconditional loving?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

We were created perfect. We need salvation because we were enlightened to know the difference between good and evil. And since we were not created as robots, but creatures with free will it was not a matter of if, but when we would choose to rebel and sin.

Why did God give us natures that he knew would go against him and sin and since we cannot help but sin from what you say, why would he punish us for just following the natures he gave us that force us to sin?

We cannot help but sin from what you say. If natural for us, why punish us for being exactly what he wanted and created?

There can be no justification for such injustice but I look forward to your attempt to justify your God's tyranny.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Did they not believe that God was God and if they did, how could they ever think of rejecting him?

Like us, they (angels) have the ability to choose whether or not the want to follow good or evil, even though they have absolute knowledge of God.

Like humans, fallen angels have pride that allows them to be tempted and gives them the desire to want to be God. God isn't going to force anyone to follow or worship him. You may think that God giving us free will and emotions (such as pride and ego) makes us imperfect, but it doesn't. It's what we do with them that makes us imperfect.

Unfortunately, the free will that led them to their fallen state, also puts them in denial about the fact that there is no salvation plan for them, since they had the absolute knowledge to begin with. You may think that a third of angels falling makes God look like a failure, but he doesn't. God would be happy and content with one person following him as long as it's of their own free will to want to do his will over their own.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

I was thinking that you might recognize that we live in the best of all possible realities so from that POV, I am disappointed.

Earth is considered top choice for spiritual education by the spirits if that is any consolation.

Unconditional love is a concept I have a hard time with. All religious and political systems of thought are based on old tribal instincts and are exclusionary, not inclusionary the way unconditional love would demand.

Well you should have difficulties with it since our material love is always conditional. Let me suggest you experience UL by taking up a Life Between Lives regression. You can experience it for yourself.

What makes you think there is such a thing and if it does exist, love has to be expressed in works and deed so what work and deeds do you see being expressed by whoever is doing this unconditional loving?

Regards
DL

See above. Don't rely on my opinion or experiences, rely on yours.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Perfection requires wholeness, and wholeness must include imperfection or it is incomplete.

So, perfection without an imperfection is not really perfection.

"Most true things are stated in paradoxes." -Lao Tzu

edit on 5-8-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Not sure if I agree but what do you see as perfect God's imperfection?

Regards
DL

Could you re-phrase your question? I'm having trouble parsing it.

God is said to be perfect.

You indicate that he is not due to some imperfection.

"Perfection requires wholeness, and wholeness must include imperfection or it is incomplete.

What is that imperfection or lack of wholeness, if I understand what you wrote, that prevents God from being perfect?

IOW. I think; where does he lack in wholeness?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Reincarnation. Damn. And I was starting to like you.
I will allow that one imperfection as I think I respect most of what you believe.

Tell us though, why do you believe in reincarnation? Do you have anything in the way of facts for us?

CPT

I could point you to Ian Stevenson's 40 yrs of scientific investigation of reincarnation or my 40yrs of past life regression therapy but I would suggest that you seek your own prior lives experience and you will have the undeniable facts that you seek.

Got $125 and Skype? You're good to go!

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Did they not believe that God was God and if they did, how could they ever think of rejecting him?

Like us, they (angels) have the ability to choose whether or not the want to follow good or evil, even though they have absolute knowledge of God.

Like humans, fallen angels have pride that allows them to be tempted and gives them the desire to want to be God. God isn't going to force anyone to follow or worship him. You may think that God giving us free will and emotions (such as pride and ego) makes us imperfect, but it doesn't. It's what we do with them that makes us imperfect.

Unfortunately, the free will that led them to their fallen state, also puts them in denial about the fact that there is no salvation plan for them, since they had the absolute knowledge to begin with. You may think that a third of angels falling makes God look like a failure, but he doesn't. God would be happy and content with one person following him as long as it's of their own free will to want to do his will over their own.

So they knew that rebelling would put their salvation in jeopardy and they intentionally put themselves in denial.

That makes no sense at all pal.

Omnipotent is defined as having unlimited influence.
IOW, God could sell a fridge to an Eskimo.

For any angel to rebel, it would mean that God does not have unlimited influence because he could not influence the 1/3 to do as the other 2/3 did and remain faithful.

Are you saying that God is not omnipotent?

You have a paradox or catch 22 to solve. I hope you can do better than you have.

Regards
DL