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If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

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posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Why did God give us natures that he knew would go against him and sin and since we cannot help but sin from what you say, why would he punish us for just following the natures he gave us that force us to sin?


Our nature doesn't "force" us to sin, it makes us desire it. The key is to try and give up our own desires for God's desires instead. Sinning allows us the chance to learn and understand that our own desires mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't bring the fulfillment that following God's desires can.


edit on 5-8-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by MuMuMu

Originally posted by Greatest I am

I was thinking that you might recognize that we live in the best of all possible realities so from that POV, I am disappointed.


Earth is considered top choice for spiritual education by the spirits if that is any consolation.


Unconditional love is a concept I have a hard time with. All religious and political systems of thought are based on old tribal instincts and are exclusionary, not inclusionary the way unconditional love would demand.


Well you should have difficulties with it since our material love is always conditional. Let me suggest you experience UL by taking up a Life Between Lives regression. You can experience it for yourself.


What makes you think there is such a thing and if it does exist, love has to be expressed in works and deed so what work and deeds do you see being expressed by whoever is doing this unconditional loving?

Regards
DL


See above. Don't rely on my opinion or experiences, rely on yours.


That is what I am doing and what I found was a great joy from the Godhead when found but not unconditional love.

Your Eh, patients/clients, when returning from their life between lives, must have so kind of message, work, deed or mental gift, if love must be expressed and it must.

What do they report gaining?

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Omnipotent is defined as having unlimited influence.
IOW, God could sell a fridge to an Eskimo.

For any angel to rebel, it would mean that God does not have unlimited influence because he could not influence the 1/3 to do as the other 2/3 did and remain faithful.

Are you saying that God is not omnipotent?


Omnipotent is defined as having unlimited power. It has nothing to do with influence, as God can choose to influence or not influence anything he wants to.

God will never use his power to force anyone/anything to follow him. This is something that must be done of one's free will.



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?


Perfection requires wholeness, and wholeness must include imperfection or it is incomplete.

So, perfection without an imperfection is not really perfection.

"Most true things are stated in paradoxes." -Lao Tzu

edit on 5-8-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)


Not sure if I agree but what do you see as perfect God's imperfection? Regards
DL


It has to be the extra cook in the Creative Kitchen--- "CHEF CHAOS", perfectly imperfect.
edit on 5-8-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Regarding reincarnation, you might be interested in this blog post coming from someone who is not a Christian...

"A Case Against Reincarnation"


The psychics began by telling me that I was an old soul who has had many lives. The first one was that of an ancient Hebrew: during this life I had made a pact with God and had died in service. Since I was born into a Jewish family, this fit nicely and, admittedly, I liked it very much, for it made me feel important. This also seemed to be a possible explanation for my burning desire to become spiritual. The next life the psychics revealed was that of a crusader who had died in the Crusades freeing the Holy Land from the Infidel. From there, I was told that I had been a Frenchman who was robbed and murdered on a road to Paris. Following that life, they said I had been a World War I soldier killed in the trenches of Europe.

All of a sudden my legs began to vibrate, then my arms, then my whole body, and, as the psychics continued giving me past lives, the vibration intensified until it was uncontrollable. I didn't know what was happening; I thought this must be my kundalini rising. Then suddenly, the door of the room swung open and a large woman - the director of the school - burst in, followed by her assistant and in a huff exclaimed, "What are all these spirits doing in the room? Get them out of here!" and began giving orders saying, "Everyone stand up. You, move the chairs. You, open the windows. This reading is over!"

Well, as one can imagine, I was bewildered as well as disappointed that my reading had ended so abruptly. I thought that if it had gone on, I could have risen out of the chair. On the way home I couldn't stop wondering what that was all about and why the director of the school was so upset that the room was filled with spirits. After all, isn't that what is supposed to happen at a psychic center? Perhaps, I had exceeded the limit and had too many spirits, who became disruptive and attracted her attention from the floor below.

As the weeks passed, I was tormented, trying to figure out what had happened. Then, out of nowhere, the answers seemed to pop into my head. I knew with a strange certainty that the director had been right - the room was filled with spirits and, moreover, they were hovering around me during the reading. The power that vibrated my body was the combined energy of their aura fields. It became clear to me that the psychics were indeed skilled in their craft and were able to read the identities of the spirits in the room and, in particular, their last experience on earth - their death. Most importantly, I somehow knew that the psychics were mistaken when they told me that the lives they were reading were my past lives, when in reality they were the lives of the spirits in the room.


www.spiritsintheroom.com...



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by MuMuMu

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Reincarnation. Damn. And I was starting to like you.
I will allow that one imperfection as I think I respect most of what you believe.

Tell us though, why do you believe in reincarnation? Do you have anything in the way of facts for us?

CPT

I could point you to Ian Stevenson's 40 yrs of scientific investigation of reincarnation or my 40yrs of past life regression therapy but I would suggest that you seek your own prior lives experience and you will have the undeniable facts that you seek.

Got $125 and Skype? You're good to go!



Expense is no object. Desire is.
If such were real, I think the Godhead I found would have shown it.
My paradigm was confirmed and it did not include anything like reincarnation.

I cannot see me, whatever me is, making a yo-yo out of my consciousness and going back and forth from the cosmic consciousness to some new body. That sound so un-God-like.

Ever notice that at reincarnation gatherings there are always a bunch who say they used to be the same ancient famous person. 3 Lincolns, 4 Marie Antoinette etc.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?


Perfection requires wholeness, and wholeness must include imperfection or it is incomplete.

So, perfection without an imperfection is not really perfection.

"Most true things are stated in paradoxes." -Lao Tzu


edit on 5-8-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)


Not sure if I agree but what do you see as perfect God's imperfection?

Regards
DL


Could you re-phrase your question? I'm having trouble parsing it.



God is said to be perfect.

You indicate that he is not due to some imperfection.

"Perfection requires wholeness, and wholeness must include imperfection or it is incomplete.

What is that imperfection or lack of wholeness, if I understand what you wrote, that prevents God from being perfect?

IOW. I think; where does he lack in wholeness?

Regards
DL


God is whole and perfect because we, who need salvation, are a part of him - part of the whole.

God encompasses and transcends every pair of opposites that can be conceived. Mortal and immortal, perfect and imperfect, truth and lie, male and female, good and evil, personal and impersonal.

God creates those boundaries and then crosses them, blurs them. Every archetype of the collective unconscious is part of God. Including the archetype of the trickster. Coincidentia oppositorum.


edit on 5-8-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Why did God give us natures that he knew would go against him and sin and since we cannot help but sin from what you say, why would he punish us for just following the natures he gave us that force us to sin?


Our nature doesn't "force" us to sin, it makes us desire it. The key is to try and give up our own desires for God's desires instead. Sinning allows us the chance to learn and understand that our own desires mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't bring the fulfillment that following God's desires can.


edit on 5-8-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)


Our natures absolutely force us to sin. To not think so, you would have to have at least one example of a man who did not or will not sin and your dogma itself says that there are none who have not or will not go off the mark. It is destined that all men will sin according to your dogma of the fall of man. Not some men but mankind.

Unless you calling your God a liar?

If not then I repeat my last full question to you as I have refuted this answer.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


We were created perfect. We need salvation because we were enlightened to know the difference between good and evil. And since we were not created as robots, but creatures with free will it was not a matter of if, but when we would choose to rebel and sin.


As a babe (no inprinting) close to perfection. As a growing individual within a corrupt society or lack luster parenting different story. I suppose that is why one becomes sequestered in Monastaries as a Buddist, to protect the soul from outside influences (keeping it pure/untainted). As I see it freewill allows for everything, sin, pleasure and its OK...the point is to experience all things in goodness or evil. Perfection is just a goal to acheive. NO ONE WANTS THAT anyway thats the job of the sequestered (chosen profession perfection). Who in their right minds would incarnate here and NOT want to bend, stress or change the rules (whatever they are); probably part of the problem, *no believable* standards and proceedure manual--.
edit on 5-8-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Omnipotent is defined as having unlimited influence.
IOW, God could sell a fridge to an Eskimo.

For any angel to rebel, it would mean that God does not have unlimited influence because he could not influence the 1/3 to do as the other 2/3 did and remain faithful.

Are you saying that God is not omnipotent?


Omnipotent is defined as having unlimited power. It has nothing to do with influence, as God can choose to influence or not influence anything he wants to.

God will never use his power to force anyone/anything to follow him. This is something that must be done of one's free will.


Now why would you want to start lying to me?

1om·nip·o·tent
adjective \äm-ˈni-pə-tənt\

Definition of OMNIPOTENT
1often capitalized : almighty 1
2: having virtually unlimited authority or influence
3; obsolete : arrant

Influencing is not forcing. It is persuading.

With unlimited powers of persuasion, how could your God possibly lose 1/3 of his perfect angels who would have had to make perfect choices.

If not then all who are perfect can be imperfect, even your God. Right?

Check those quotes in the O P and follow the logic. You has a perfect tree producing corrupt fruit. We know your God by his fruit and you are saying her is corrupt.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Our natures absolutely force us to sin. To not think so, you would have to have at least one example of a man who did not or will not sin and your dogma itself says that there are none who have not or will not go off the mark. It is destined that all men will sin according to your dogma of the fall of man. Not some men but mankind.


All men sin in order to learn that their sinful desires get them nowhere. Some will learn from this and some will not. It depends on how much pleasure/fulfillment one thinks he's getting from his own sinful desires.



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Now why would you want to start lying to me?


om·nip·o·tent (m-np-tnt)
adj.
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.
n.
1. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
2. Omnipotent God. Used with the.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Omnipotence (from Latin: Omni Potens: "all power") is unlimited power.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:30 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



With unlimited powers of persuasion, how could your God possibly lose 1/3 of his perfect angels who would have had to make perfect choices.


Once again, I'll say that even though God has the power to persuade, doesn't mean he will.

Why would God want to endlessly persuade someone that doesn't want to be persuaded due to their own free will?



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:30 PM
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God created man in His own image, after His likeness, in Gen 1:26. Man fell due to a lie told to Eve by Adam, which opened a door for evil. Children would then no longer be in the image and likeness of God, but in the image and likeness of Man (Gen 5:1).



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?


Perfection requires wholeness, and wholeness must include imperfection or it is incomplete.

So, perfection without an imperfection is not really perfection.

"Most true things are stated in paradoxes." -Lao Tzu


edit on 5-8-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)


Not sure if I agree but what do you see as perfect God's imperfection?

Regards
DL


Could you re-phrase your question? I'm having trouble parsing it.



God is said to be perfect.

You indicate that he is not due to some imperfection.

"Perfection requires wholeness, and wholeness must include imperfection or it is incomplete.

What is that imperfection or lack of wholeness, if I understand what you wrote, that prevents God from being perfect?

IOW. I think; where does he lack in wholeness?

Regards
DL


God is whole and perfect because we, who need salvation, are a part of him - part of the whole.

God encompasses and transcends every pair of opposites that can be conceived. Mortal and immortal, perfect and imperfect, truth and lie, male and female, good and evil, personal and impersonal.

God creates those boundaries and then crosses them, blurs them. Every archetype of the collective unconscious is part of God. Including the archetype of the trickster. Coincidentia oppositorum.


edit on 5-8-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)


If we are part of God and are imperfect and in need of salvation then God cannot be perfect as we, being a part of him are not.

Why do we need salvation if created imperfect in the first place?
We cannot help being as created.


Let's cut to the chase now as this is getting stupid.

You speak of what God does above with boundaries etc.

How do you know this to be true?

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Our natures absolutely force us to sin. To not think so, you would have to have at least one example of a man who did not or will not sin and your dogma itself says that there are none who have not or will not go off the mark. It is destined that all men will sin according to your dogma of the fall of man. Not some men but mankind.


All men sin in order to learn that their sinful desires get them nowhere. Some will learn from this and some will not. It depends on how much pleasure/fulfillment one thinks he's getting from his own sinful desires.


Exactly. We are all created to sin and god wants us to sin so we are doing his will by sinning, elevating us you say, so how can God be justified in punishing us for doing exactly what he wants?

Do you punish your children when they do what you want?

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Now why would you want to start lying to me?


om·nip·o·tent (m-np-tnt)
adj.
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.
n.
1. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
2. Omnipotent God. Used with the.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Omnipotence (from Latin: Omni Potens: "all power") is unlimited power.

en.wikipedia.org...




I repeat. Why are you trying to lie and distort known definitions. Webster was around way before wiki and trhe writers had that definition to work with.

We are just about done here when debate turn to lies. Shame on you Christian sinner.
God is watching you.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



Why did God give us natures that he knew would go against him and sin and since we cannot help but sin from what you say, why would he punish us for just following the natures he gave us that force us to sin?


Because love isn't love unless it's freely given. If I were God I would not create robots either, but creatures who were capable of choosing to love me back. The secondary consequence of that is the knowledge that some of those creatures would choose not to love back.
edit on 5-8-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



With unlimited powers of persuasion, how could your God possibly lose 1/3 of his perfect angels who would have had to make perfect choices.


Once again, I'll say that even though God has the power to persuade, doesn't mean he will.

Why would God want to endlessly persuade someone that doesn't want to be persuaded due to their own free will?


Your book say he has infinite patience. It is to you to explain his lack of patience not me.
Now you resort to reverse onus. Is that all you have Christian?

Are you going to let this Gnostic Christian have his way and make you look foolish?

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 5 2013 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by Jim Scott
God created man in His own image, after His likeness, in Gen 1:26. Man fell due to a lie told to Eve by Adam, which opened a door for evil. Children would then no longer be in the image and likeness of God, but in the image and likeness of Man (Gen 5:1).


Likeness as in perfect?

What lie did Adam tell Eve?

Regards
DL



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