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If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

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posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by Kody27
I thought Lucifer was satan? And he was an angel first then rebelled and all that jazz. So Satan existed as a snake before Lucifer? Chalk up another unexplainable contradiction for Christianity haha. No but seriously all that stuff was made up for white people to believe.


That was a high point of my day so far. Thanks!




posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by MuMuMu
 


Thanks. the funny thing is, I'm white. Guess I'm not on board with what's accepted by most my race. dang



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 12:51 PM
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You have to read scripture to know what's in it...

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.




edit on 6-8-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by BornOfSin

Leonardo Da Vinci deciphered the same truth as I did. It is in all his paintings



Originally posted by BornOfSin
He was one of the smartest men to have ever lived, I am a certified genius in the top percentile.

Notice the common trait here? It is that we are much smarter than yourself, and therefore should be appreciated as such, as we are able to work things out that you can not. Obviously.

This is ignorance my friend, to be a certified genius and then claim to be smarter begs the question of what is intelligence? Is it measured by logic? By your ability to understand? Or rather achievement? There is no definitive answer so to say you are smarter then someone could be completely wrong. Because there is no definitive answer to intelligence and there is indubitably more then one factor to gauge intelligence, you can be (near) assured that his intelligence may surpass your own in a factor, giving him the ability to comprehend things in certain ways which you are perhaps unaware of. To claim that you are able to figure out things that others cannot simply because you are smarter is almost contradictory to your earlier statement saying you deciphered Leonardo da Vinci's secret. There should be no explanation as to why if you are of the top percentile.

Originally posted by BornOfSin
When I release Genesis soon, it will be taken VERY seriously .. Cause the translations are correct. And you will remember every post you made .. and exactly how much egg is on your face.

This is also contradictory because this is saying you deciphered what others over thousands of years haven't. Surely you do not believe you are the only genius who has tried?

A question I would like answered is why would perfection be imperfection? The implications of that are impossible.
If it is to learn then that is a ridiculous notion because if god created man with knowledge of only good then how is to learn of evil beneficial? If no teachings of evil were ever presented to Adam and Eve surely they would still be good for the knowledge was only obtainable through satan ( who god could destroy at any second) and the tree of knowledge. If it was because we fell from perfection with 'free will' then that could also be argued wrong. God is omniscient so wouldn't he be aware of every action we did before it happened? Before he even created us he would have known how the fate of mankind played out. Thus free will is not free will.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
You have to read scripture to know what's in it...
edit on 6-8-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

No you don't I like the audiobook.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by BornOfSin
 

"Fruit tree" actually refers to the Bible.

Eden would be an idealized Israel, if the people of that country obeyed The Lord.
The good tree would be the sanctioned temple worship.
The bad tree would be the more fun, old Canaanite nature worship in the groves, with drinking and sex.
Banishment from Eden is the explanation for why the literal Israel is not so great.
edit on 6-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 03:18 PM
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It seems a lot of the posts to this thread came from your lower mind or the ego. So I must talk a little bit more about the ego so that you can better understand yourselves. Because to know yourself is the key to salvation. First, please read my previous post here in order to realize where the ego came from: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Let's begin with the understanding of who you are spiritually. You are your mind, period. You are your consciousness. Without your mind, you do not exist. For all Consciousness is God. For all things that exist in this world and next, it all came from Consciousness. When you look at the mirror, you know that you exist. Animals don't know they exist as a cat or a dog. But you know you are a human being. With that in mind, let's look at the different "selves" that exist in your consciousness, starting from the lowest point to the highest.

1. The Lower Self - Ego or Subconscious: As discussed earlier, the Ego was created by your Soul when you descended from Heaven or Spiritual Realm. The Ego itself is not evil. But it exists in order for you to properly function in the Physical Plane. It is like a computer. Society, your parents, your peers, your church, your school, your politicians, your every aspect of life teach the Ego what to do in whatever circumstance. For example, if you are hungry, the Ego or Subconscious tell you to go get food. Breathing, heart beats, blood pressure, kidney functions, and all bodily functions are controlled by the Subconscious, where the Ego is the subset of your programmed physical mind. If someone says something that contradicts what your Ego understands as "truth," then you will fight back with what you believe. Finally, let's say that you have cancer. If your Ego continues to believe that you have cancer and die, you will surely die.

So again, the Ego is the computer. You MUST tell it what to do or it will tell you what to do based on its programming from life on Earth. 99% of people in this world function on automatic pilot. They just drift from one day to another and let their Ego do the work. This is dangerous and that is why ignorance is not bliss but the cause of your own destruction.

2. The Middle Self - Conscious Self: This represents the you who came from Heaven discussed previously. This is the essence of who you are or the piece of mind that came from God's own Consciousness. This is the only part that can come back to Heaven. Only the Conscious Self can reprogram the Lower Self or Ego to BE the Kingdom of Heaven and NOT the Kingdom of Earth. That is why ONLY you can be the savior in this aspect of the study. You must tell the Ego to detach from ALL Earthly things, including your beliefs and thoughts. You must transcend your current paradigm. Keep transcending until you go back to Heaven. But I will discuss more about this transformation at another time.

3. The Christ Self - Holy Spirit, Super Consciousness: Right after we descended from Heaven, in order to combat the Ego, members of Heaven split up their consciousness like God did and put a piece of his or her mind into your Consciousness. So the Christ Self has always been with you since the beginning of birth on Earth. Its job is to remind you, in whatever way possible, that you are Divine. It will remind you all the way to your death bed. But for some reason you still chose to follow the Ego, then you must do it all over again in the next life or reincarnation. Don't get confused with the Christ Self as Jesus Christ. If you got confused, then you just let the Ego think for you. Get out of that Mental Box. The Christ Self is a teacher sent from Heaven to teach you things that are much higher in thinking than your Ego. It can also be called the Buddha Self or Krishna Self, depending on where you were raised.

4. The Higher Self - I AM Presence, Divine Consciousness: Ascension to Heaven can only be possible by merging with your Higher Self in FULL. You can merge with it before ascending, but not a full merge. You must become ONE with your Higher Self in order to be in Heaven or Spiritual Realm. Your Christ Self is your teacher initially, but after merging with your Teacher, you must transcend that by merging with your I AM Presence. And therefore, the Higher Self will be your teacher from then on. Now do you understand more about salvation?

Your Higher Self is YOU before descending onto the Physical Plane, Your Perfect Self that came from God. Your whole mission in life is to overcome the Ego or Lower Self.
edit on 8/6/2013 by ctophil because: (no reason given)

edit on 8/6/2013 by ctophil because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Jim Scott
 

Adam told Eve that if she touched the fruit, she would die.

The word here translated as "touch" can mean to gather, as in reaping, so it is directly connected to the eating, where first you have to draw the fruit from the tree.
So there was no lie being told in connection with the use of that word.
The lie was from the serpent, when he said "No".


What? I thought Lucifer encouraged the eating of the tree of knowledge , NEVER said NO. How do you not know that the fruit was actually PICKED from the tree and not from the ground (windstorm catastrophy). Wizard of OZ, the animated apple tree slapped Dorothy's hand (metaphor) dont pick an apple from a tree that wishes its fruit to fall on the ground to ROT, or have NO fruition (fell on sterile ground).
edit on 5-8-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)


The Serpent in the Garden of Eden tempted Eve to eat the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Once again, don't read Genesis with the Mind of Man (The Ego) and put everything into a literal interpretation. The Bible is full of symbolism, more so than literal meanings. The following is an interpretation from the Mind of God.

1. The Serpent was not Lucifer. Although the consciousness was similar to Lucifer. The Serpent represented ANY Fallen Being who can tempt you in this Physical Plane and even higher planes. The only place you can't get tempted is in the Spiritual Realm or Heaven.

2. The Tree is a symbol for Consciousness. So the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represented the Mind of Man or Fallen Consciousness. Therefore the Tree of Life represented the Mind of God. God was trying to teach that if Adam and Eve let their consciousness fall into the Mind of Man, then they would surely die. But the Serpent lied to Eve, saying that if you use the Mind of Man, you won't die.

3. God actually meant that Death in this passage is that the Ego or Mind of Man can cause your own destruction or death. So Adam and Eve would surely die. When you eat the Fruit (Mind of God) of the Tree of Life (Consciousness of God), then you will live--you will have life eternal or go back to Heaven.

4. The Garden of Eden was not a physical location on Earth. It was in the highest plane of the Material Universe (I.e. Identity Plane). In that plane, although much less dense than here, there still existed Fallen Beings to tempt people. As long as you are in the Material Universe, there will always be Devils as you call them.

5. God in the Garden of Eden was NOT the Creator as most people think. It was an Ascended Being who was a teacher in the Identity Plane. I will not reveal the name due to the Ego of mankind. That's why Adam and Eve tried to hide from God when they realized their minds have fallen. Can you really hide it from the Creator?

There are much, much more symbolism in the entire Bible. So never take any form of scripture literally. This will only make your Ego go into another Mental Box.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by BornOfSin
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Here is the true interpretation of the Isaiah quote you gave, I took the time to jump ahead in my project re-translating the Bible, to do this especially for you.

It's quite different to what you thought, and rather comical when you consider you used it for a meaning that opposes its true interpretation.


ISAIAH 50

10) Who of you respecting Yahweh, (I am, we are) hear the spoken words of the servant who walked through the darkness? There is no splendour to those who depend on the name of Yahweh (I am, we are), for salvation through their oaths.

11) They are all consumed by the flame of the 'holy fire' and attached to their beliefs through ties and affiliations of austerity, that are the hands burning society. By this hereby; they must convert and reattach.






That's funny, because your version is not what it says in Hebrew. If you're trying to make your own religion, don't come at people sealed to Christ lest you be found talking to brick walls. We will not hear you, and the Master said we would not.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by ctophil
 



5. God in the Garden of Eden was NOT the Creator as most people think. It was an Ascended Being who was a teacher in the Identity Plane. I will not reveal the name due to the Ego of mankind. That's why Adam and Eve tried to hide from God when they realized their minds have fallen. Can you really hide it from the Creator?


By all means, please share with us which "Ascended Being" was in the Garden of Eden instead of God, based on what your spirits tell you. There's nothing secretive with God, only lying spirits.

You do realize that after Adam and Eve sinned by eating from the Tree of Knowledge that they were banned from eating from the Tree of Life ever again after that? The only other ones in the garden besides Adam and Eve, were the Cherubim who shielded the Tree of Life from them after they sinned, so that they wouldn't be able to eat from it again.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by greavsie1971
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 


I wouldn't bother.They obviously do not want to learn about what the Bible states. They just want pick holes and criticise. He wont accept we are all different with different experiences and therefore different beliefs.
The fact we are members on ATS means we have so much in common with each other. Instead some like to highlight our differences and create divide. If the NSA are monitoring this site (which Im damn sure they are) they must love this. How will we ever stop tyranny if we waste so much time criticising each other for our differences.
We cannot even accept each other, we are just like our governments.........'agree with me or I will ridicule you.'
I am to blame also. We have no hope.!!!Im new to ATS, I thought it was the ideal place to share thoughts and ideas, instead I have spent most of my time explaining why I believe what I do. I guess Im still learning which threads to avoid


Here is the thing Greavsie, if one joins this site, youd better be able to explain yourself because "being hammered" is second nature and defending points of view paramount to elevating the discussion. Its not for the timid, more for the scatterbrained Egoist that has a strong point of view. NSA can do as they like, they monitor phone communications, why not have the CABAL easily at hand here and not have to hunt and peck wasting manhours. I doubt they are very interested in RFT forum (REALLY). We have so much in common in being able to use this website for self expression; and in that IS HOPE in the fact you have compatriates that YOU CAN challenge (and will not mind at all).
edit on 6-8-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 

You are a bible thumper that takes verbage as exactiude/truth?

I think that the words are important and has to do with why the story was being told.
It has nothing to do with some actual historical events, that of course would be impossible to know.


The words are important, and are meaningful; but in what century? This is modernday and as poetry or 1500 year old antiquated rhetoric fine. I cant relate to any of it other than ancient wisdom that for some applies as a doctrine. I use the bible as an oracle, (if I have a question I thumb the pages and get an answer). The story is a great one but has been told by at least 5 other faith systems prior to this one. There is much information on ATS regarding the 'neverending SAME story'. Its an amalgomation of Pagan ideaforms, its corrupt storytelling. The historic events descibed may be true?? Here is my question, lets all start over with a savior, and with all of the technology available to us can PIN IT DOWN as WITNESSES; all of us.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by ctophil
 



5. God in the Garden of Eden was NOT the Creator as most people think. It was an Ascended Being who was a teacher in the Identity Plane. I will not reveal the name due to the Ego of mankind. That's why Adam and Eve tried to hide from God when they realized their minds have fallen. Can you really hide it from the Creator?


By all means, please share with us which "Ascended Being" was in the Garden of Eden instead of God, based on what your spirits tell you. There's nothing secretive with God, only lying spirits.

You do realize that after Adam and Eve sinned by eating from the Tree of Knowledge that they were banned from eating from the Tree of Life ever again after that? The only other ones in the garden besides Adam and Eve, were the Cherubim who shielded the Tree of Life from them after they sinned, so that they wouldn't be able to eat from it again.



There are certain mysteries that the general public are not ready for due to their current consciousness. But when they are ready for it, of course the Kingdom of God has no secrets for them to see and hear. Like over 2,000 years ago, Jesus taught the general public in parables, since they didn't understand it in any other way. He taught more directly to his disciples. But even then, over half of his disciples did not grasp the wisdom. The collective consciousness back then were much lower than today's people. That is why I don't speak in parables unless I have to. Although I do use symbolism in order to create a better picture for most people. Believe it or not, people are generally higher in mindset than it was during Jesus' time. If I was walking around over 2,000 years ago, I wouldn't be teaching the same way I did in this thread. People would be completely lost and would deem me heretical and blasphemous.

Just realize that the God in the Garden of Eden was not the Creator. The Creator would not and should not lower His consciousness to be our teacher on Earth. Please understand The Creator never interacts with his co-creators in the Material Universe. He leaves that to his Ascended Co-creators who have already succeeded in going back to Heaven already. That is their job. It will also be our job too when we are back in Heaven. It is our free will to choose between the Tree of Life or Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If the Creator suddenly appeared before you, believe me, you wouldn't choose the Tree of Knowledge. The Creator's Energy surpasses the human intellect. Lowering his consciousness into the Physical Plane would be way too much energy that not even the Earth can survive the impact.

As to your question, remember that the Bible uses a lot of symbolism. What you thought was God banning Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of Life again actually meant that it is highly difficult for them to again eat from the Tree of Life. Because once you eat from the Tree of Knowledge, it will clog your mind to the point where it becomes blind with Duality--hence Good and Evil. Once again, God's Mind does not see good and evil as opposite polarities, this only comes from the Mind of Man (Fallen Consciousness). Remember I said that the Tree of Life represented the Mind of God or God Consciousness. How many people on Earth do you know who has fully put on the Mind of God? The author of Genesis also used his mindset to write it back then. He wrote down what he thought was banning from the Tree of Life. But the clearer meaning is what I just said. That is why I keep saying scriptures are not infallible. Finally, people are usually quite judgmental of themselves. The Ego makes them feel so guilty of doing the wrong thing that they deemed themselves unworthy of touching the Tree of Life ever again.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by ctophil
Originally posted by veteranhumanbeing

reply to post by Jim Scott
 

Adam told Eve that if she touched the fruit, she would die.



veteranhumanbeing
What? I thought Lucifer encouraged the eating of the tree of knowledge , NEVER said NO. How do you not know that the fruit was actually PICKED from the tree and not from the ground (windstorm catastrophy). Wizard of OZ, the animated apple tree slapped Dorothy's hand (metaphor) dont pick an apple from a tree that wishes its fruit to fall on the ground to ROT, or have NO fruition (fell on sterile ground).


ctophil

The Serpent in the Garden of Eden tempted Eve to eat the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Once again, don't read Genesis with the Mind of Man (The Ego) and put everything into a literal interpretation. The Bible is full of symbolism, more so than literal meanings. The following is an interpretation from the Mind of God.

1. The Serpent was not Lucifer. Although the consciousness was similar to Lucifer. The Serpent represented ANY Fallen Being who can tempt you in this Physical Plane and even higher planes. The only place you can't get tempted is in the Spiritual Realm or Heaven.


The SERPENT IS THE GARDEN (the environment physical plane).


ctophil
2. The Tree is a symbol for Consciousness. So the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represented the Mind of Man or Fallen Consciousness. Therefore the Tree of Life represented the Mind of God. God was trying to teach that if Adam and Eve let their consciousness fall into the Mind of Man, then they would surely die. But the Serpent lied to Eve, saying that if you use the Mind of Man, you won't die.


The tree of knowledge is the symbol for "ENLIGHTENMENT" nothing other. There was no "mind of man" before the symbolic eating of its fruit. The tree COULD represent God if God stepped up and protected the shills, Adam and Eve (IDEAFORM) There was never a "mind" until the partaking/consumption of the "fruit of God" (enlightenment) calling the human into existance. The Serpent NEVER lied, they lived within its domaine (created there) (garden) after inception.


ctophil
3. God actually meant that Death in this passage is that the Ego or Mind of Man can cause your own destruction or death. So Adam and Eve would surely die. When you eat the Fruit (Mind of God) of the Tree of Life (Consciousness of God), then you will live--you will have life eternal or go back to Heaven.


God meant no thing; as God is expressing itself through the EGO of the human and therefore death of those bodies minds would negate its reason for creating them as OWN expression. Why would it trick itself into life eternal when it already knows this is a fact? Spirit/soul is everlasting indestructable.


ctophil
4. The Garden of Eden was not a physical location on Earth. It was in the highest plane of the Material Universe (I.e. Identity Plane). In that plane, although much less dense than here, there still existed Fallen Beings to tempt people. As long as you are in the Material Universe, there will always be Devils as you call them.


Bible says in the valley of the Uphrates and Tigress rivers converge (physical) was the garden. As long as we exist a material bodies we REMAIN Gods expression PHYSICALLY GROSS MATTER. I understand that all planes of awareness exist all at once, it wouldnt surprise me it existed in all 12 dimensions simoultaneously occuring. Of course in the lesser dense planes (gaseous down to gross matter) anything can happen. The third dimension HEAVY is influenced by the upper realms and visa-versa? contaminated forsight or hindsight? WHOS IN CHARGE HERE? There was never a question regarding the matter format, it had been done in the upper realms "still existing" BUT NOT CHALLENGING enough, (lets put legs on a rock give it a brain and animate it).


ctophil
God in the Garden of Eden was NOT the Creator as most people think. It was an Ascended Being who was a teacher in the Identity Plane. I will not reveal the name due to the Ego of mankind. That's why Adam and Eve tried to hide from God when they realized their minds have fallen. Can you really hide it from the Creator? There are much, much more symbolism in the entire Bible. So never take any form of scripture literally. This will only make your Ego go into another Mental Box.


So you have catagories for the God aspect? Its about time someone lets the others onto the great secret hidden. There are multiple Gods. I certainly understand the teachers, and the "gardeners" that carry out the physical planes stewardship. You cannot hide from the ulitmate creator as YOU ARE IT. No need for doctrine, its all available within your own mind/being if ONE BOTHERED TO LOOK.
edit on 6-8-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by ctophil
 


"When you look at the mirror, you know that you exist"

Have you ever seen the back of your head?



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by ctophil
 


"When you look at the mirror, you know that you exist"
Have you ever seen the back of your head?


Self recognition. The thing on my shoulder is a parrot, turning to see if there is another 'me' attached to my spine wanting to share banana peices.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 11:21 PM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 



edit on 6-8-2013 by guitarplayer because: MISTAKEN FOR SOMEONE ELSE PERSON WAS NOT POSTED ORIGINALY.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by ctophil
 


"When you look at the mirror, you know that you exist"
Have you ever seen the back of your head?


Self recognition. The thing on my shoulder is a parrot, turning to see if there is another 'me' attached to my spine wanting to share banana peices.


Why are you replying to someone who has not posted to you? if I wanted to post to you I would have, are you in the habit of talking for other people? Such a childish habit.



posted on Aug, 6 2013 @ 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by Illuminating
God is perfect, thus his creations must be perfect, then why do humans need salvation?
If God is all good, then his creations must be good, correct? But because he gave us 'free will' we had a choice and chose wrong, we admitted evil, which god claims to have no doing with, making a break in Christian logic
If God is perfect(so as the bible claims), then god would be able to see what mankind would do, so why did he allow it to happen? He allowed evil to happen yet did not stop it.
All good questions and thoughts to ponder


I would suggest that you read Revlations here I'll post the answer here.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This verse here states from the foundation of the world before it was made the Lamb (Christ) was slain. Meaning that God foreknew what was to occure before it was created and He already had the answer in Christ.



posted on Aug, 7 2013 @ 04:28 AM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 

The historic events described may be true??
Legends at best as far as the direct content.
The real historical events that spawned the tale are real enough, that supposedly there was a kingdom of sorts in the hils of Canaan that got destroyed by the northern empire hungry for loot and slaves and imposing their own authority, which would include an impoverishing tax.
The priests of that hill god, formerly with its own king and kingdom, would be quick to come up with a scheme to show the blame is rightly placed on the people, rather than on the god, for this turn of events.
edit on 7-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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