It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Khaleesi
reply to post by frazzle
Congratulations! This whole thread reminds me of 'debates' I have been in with my cousin. His idea of winning a debate includes belittling his 'opponent' and considering the debate a win for him because he talked the loudest and longest. When the opponent simply gets tired of listening to the SAME argument being presented over and over with a TOTAL DISREGARD for other evidence that has been put forth, walks away, he announces " I WIN".
So, YOU WIN even though NO ONE has said this wasn't an atrocity. Congratulations! This atrocity has been reduced to blaming and finger pointing and name calling. (Liar! Petulant!)
Thanks a lot for reducing my ancestors plight by INSISTING a comparison to other atrocities.edit on 6-8-2013 by Khaleesi because: spelling
Wow, nine stars.....
for that petulant emotional outburst.
Its a sign of the times I guess, objectivity and adherence to facts is a dead art.
Almost as dead as the land of liberty, freedom, justice and "the American way".
That was especially profound.
Very few 'facts' have actually been established other than a hell of a lot of Native Americans died, most due to disease and many due to various atrocities and acts of 'war' carried out by various nations and groups.
One of the few other 'facts' established is that none of this constant finger pointing or playing the blame game will do anything whatsoever to help, enable, assist or empower Native Americans today.
You may be surprised but I actually agree with most of what you say. Granted in my OP I said "the worst", I should have said "One of the worst". And that is only the ones we know about. Out of the many people I have met, Americans are some of the most decent ones.
Why don't you do something about "my President and his buck-buddies" doing this, "robbing us, you and me"? Why do you let them "treat us the very same way... we can barely afford to live anymore"? (Notice, I am one of the 'you and me')
Don't you have the power to do something, given that we live in a democracy? Who do you think I point the finger at?
I mostly enjoyed the heck out of that commentary. The good, the bad, and the ugly, that's who we were then and that's who we still are. Unfortunately, as you say, the bad and the ugly seem to be the determining factor in almost every case because the good won't lower themselves to the same tactics used by those others. Denying the earlier determining factors seems to be where we're stuck, and no we can't change them now, but we can try to understand them and learn from them because what we've been doing isn't working. Killing threads and avoiding talking about it won't change anything.
Obama is only "guilty" because he's the face we can see, but he didn't shoot the holes in the bottom of our boat, the holes were already there. Unfortunately, like so many others before him, he and his ADVISORS are doing their best to keep anyone from plugging the holes or building a better boat. Its the system that's drowning us. But we LOVE our system. To death.
Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX
Honestly? I'm a kid. I haven't yet figured out a way to manifest a huge revolution... but believe me, when I do, I'll be on the top of the world, leading the rebellion through the gates. But thus far, the best approach I can come up with personally is handing out DVDs of wake-up documentaries and spreading the word the old fashioned way. I haven't got the money to pay off my car right now, much less make it to the Bilderberg meetings like I want to.
It seems to me that opening eyes is the strongest move I can make right now.
“Secretary Stanton, in an interesting telegraphic correspondence with Governor Tod, of Ohio, on September 9, 1862, stated he believed "there is reason to fear that many voluntarily surrender for the sake of getting home. I have sent fifteen hundred to Camp Chase and wish to have them kept in close quarters and drilled diligently every day, with no leave of absence." Governor Tod, the same day, suggested that these paroled prisoners awaiting a declaration of exchange, be sent to Minnesota to fight the Indians, and Secretary Stanton immediately approved the suggestion.”
25%? That's nothing.
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Sorry but I still have to give "the worst genocide in history" to the Communists. Once Stalin started to set up his collective farming scheme untold millions of people (we never will know the true number) starved to death.
Then Mao Tse Tung, not to be undone, installed his Cultural Revolution in China, displacing millions and forcing peasants to produce industrial good of poor quality while inducing more famines and more political persecution.
Then Pol Pot, not to be undone, installed his "Year Zero" policy in Cambodia which murdered literally 25% of the population
Originally posted by frazzle
I don’t think anyone has said here that “America is bad”, only that the American system has unquestionably done and is doing bad things, often against the wishes and better judgment or knowledge of the American people, just as it happens in any other nation or empire on earth. The reason no one has ever been able to stop any of the bad acts is because we’ve all been so carefully taught not to ask questions and, as you said, to always bow to authority and to follow instructions and orders.
Then Pol Pot, not to be undone, installed his "Year Zero" policy in Cambodia which murdered literally 25% of the population and brought it back to the stone age for decades. Centuries of culture, music, art, literature...all gone.
The figure today is greater than 3 million Agent Orange victims in Vietnam, including children of the second and third generations.
Monsanto, Agent Orange Creator, Returns To Vietnam
Wednesday, August 7, 2013
Monsanto ready to sell GM crops and weed-killing chemicals in Vietnam; Many outraged
Wasicu is a derogatory word the Lakota used to refer to the white man. The literal translation is "fat takers" or "the fat eaters," which was a reference to the white man's greed and wanton disregard with preserving the earth's resources for the next seven generations. This was a foolish thing to do, and the Lakota word for crazy actually means foolish, so perhaps that is how the popularity of the phrase "crazy white man" came about. Wasicu also means any "greedy person," regardless of whether or not they are white.
Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
Yes, it bears repeating that Americans in general are fine people in my view also. The "system" is the government. It is highly unlikely that Stalin acted on the desire of the Russian people. So why do people "play along" when the governments decide to slaughter a large portion of their own population?
Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
Originally posted by Metallicus
Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't feel guilty.
You should be sorry. We are talking about millions of people killed, entire civilizations wiped out, by your ancestors and mine.
And you don't even ask yourself why?
Maybe you have never been on the "other side" of history.
Originally posted by Catacomb
I am proud of my Cherokee, and Scotch Irish heritage. I have relatives who look Cherokee, but I do not. So, should I hate myself, or identify with my Cherokee side, and blame people for something they had nothing to do with?
Heritage is full of good, and bad. Just like the humans who have shaped it. You have good and bad. From every swing of the pendulum, back and forth, on that scale. But, in the end, we are all human. Instead of blaming everyone who is American, and not Native American, how about you simply learn from the past, and not judge people who are different. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, how about you look to how far human beings have come.
One of the things I have learned, for myself, is that I am human. I am not Scottish, or Cherokee. Yes, that is part of my heritage. Yes, I am very proud of them both. Yes, both sides have done good, and bad things, historically. However, the link here is that we are all human. We are all the same. Splitting people up, is just what those that control how you think want you to do.
Don't fall into this predictable cycle of self-loathing, simply because your ancestors did something bad. They probably did 100 times (and I am speaking to your own direct ancestors) more good things than bad. 100 times more good people than bad, existed, in your lineage.
We are no different. I do not care what your heritage is, or what you look like. We are all human, and have the same, good and bad, in all of us. Don't single any one culture out. Learn from the bad, and promote the good aspects of all who live today, and in the past.
We are just that...only human.
However, the link here is that we are all human. We are all the same. Splitting people up, is just what those that control how you think want you to do.
Originally posted by frazzle
Why? Just guessing, but maybe because until its them being slaughtered its somebody else's problem? And as long as they're on the winning side they think they're safe? I don't know, I'll never understand it.
Why? Do you really think it requires a revolution or rebellion? Are we not a free country with free elections?
You know the story of Joan of Arc, right? She was a 17 year old peasant girl who led the French army to defeat the British and recapture their country. Nothing's impossible.
Do you have an online link for the wake-up documentaries?
You’re a kid???? Let me be the first to say you’re way ahead of the game. You may not be all the way there yet, no one is, but you’ve got a good start and you're paying attention.
Just to clarify, I’m not interested in holding anybody accountable for anything, even if that were remotely possible. I’m more interested in people holding themselves accountable without force or coercion, but with the understanding that they don’t always know what’s true and what is not, or what’s just politically expedient. But finding that truth is imperative, even though its often a harsh thing.
I don’t think anyone has said here that “America is bad”, only that the American system has unquestionably done and is doing bad things, often against the wishes and better judgment or knowledge of the American people, just as it happens in any other nation or empire on earth.
Both Dawes and federal non-recognition are silent forms of an ongoing genocide and no one even knows its being done.
I'm really getting tired of this. How many pages in this thread have you read? One?
On each page I repeat this is not about blaming. I did, again, one hour before your post.
I simply look at history and everybody (almost) accuses me of blaming. What is this? Maybe some point in the future, they will require DNA testing to determine your heritage. That is not what I am hoping for, it is what I am afraid of.
Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX
1) I don't think elections make as much of a difference as we'd all like to think.
2) I recommend State of Mind, a brand new documentary, hot off the press. Just google search for conspiracy documentaries, they're everywhere. Terrorstorm, Endgame, Wake up Call, etc.
3) its the "We hate America" bandwagon itself... meh. They'll die out, like any other fad.
4) But saying "Your ignorance is expected, because you're an American." is a little offensive and bias, isn't it? I know you didn't say that, but still.
5) But people insulting me, because I'm an American citizen, NOT because I actually played a part in this tyranny, is unacceptable,