Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

reply to post by frazzle


and was the GREATEST death toll during this time? what was the population of native peoples at this time compared to when Europeans first arrived?

how does anything the US did at this time constitute genocide?

mass displacements and atrocities sure....I wont deny that.... but GENOCIDE? No.

The US didnt control the west until much later after it finally acquired the current continental US. That is where everyone is saying the US had its own version of the Holocaust ......that is just agenda driven revisionist history at play.


I mean if we want to play this game then this thread should be titled "Europe is responsible for yet another genocide".....

I would rather live in the here and now considering that no one alive today did any of these things and no one alive today had any of these things done to them. Everyone involved is LONG dead and we don't do these things anymore to native Americans, So what's the point of all this?

Originally posted by tadaman
reply to post by frazzle

 

and was the GREATEST death toll during this time? what was the population of native peoples at this time compared to when Europeans first arrived?

how does anything the US did at this time constitute genocide?

mass displacements and atrocities sure....I wont deny that.... but GENOCIDE? No.

The US disnt control the west until much later after it finally acquired the current) continental US. That is where everyone is saying the US had its own version of the Holocaust ......that is just agenda driven revisionist history at play.

edit on 13-8-2013 by tadaman because: (no reason given)

Lots of people feel the same way about the German holocaust, they are called ugly names and in some cases thrown in jail for uttering it.

"To learn who rules over you, notice who you cannot criticize." Voltaire

Yeah, revisionist history is applicable. The winners, and all that.

reply to post by frazzle


I don't see how that proves your point. are disputing the whole of historical thought and study on the subject?

This is accepted history. Voltaire doesn't really apply since we now admit what we did wrong. No one is denying that with the exception of Europeans apparently who feel that they didn't kill off entire populations in the Americas....the US did it.....sure....

reply to post by tadaman

I would rather live in the here and now considering that no one alive today did any of these things and no one alive today had any of these things done to them. Everyone involved is LONG dead and we don't do these things anymore to native Americans, So what's the point of all this?

Despite the fact that we are still doing it to the Indians, we now have a bigger and better target. Muslims. A whole cart load of them are now long dead. On our watch. But its okay because they're barbarians and savages and insurgents when they try to protect their homelands from our invasions.

Cognitive dissonance.

reply to post by frazzle


so this is about Muslims?

you see now why I call you people liars.

this is all about making the US out to be satan. Please. you sound so desperate.

by the way....Europe has troops in the middle east as well........always has. Africa was its first colonial experience being pricks to people...

You like living in the first world...no? the price is too high...? then leave. shut off your computer and live in the third world you love and defend.

if not know the price of your lifestyle....don't kid yourself. YOU are the first world......if you can't help but feel guilty then leave...put your ass where your mouth is......

reply to post by frazzle

What? European fur trappers and traders had been all over the western part of this country since the 1600s, usually along with their Indian guides. Europeans were all a flutter over the furs brought back from the "new country" and everyone there knew the stories of the vast expanse of the wild lands, including the kings.

A small handful of independent trappers ventured westward, that didn't convey the true extent of the vastness of the land.
True westward expansionism didn't really start until the late 18th century reaching it's peak in the early to mid 19th century.

Some of those diseases were transported into western lands by Lewis and Clark in 1804,...

Correct, to a point.
The Lewis and Clark expedition was the first real attempt to map the land west of the Mississippi, to establish an 'American' presence there and to discover a route to the Pacific coast - this was in 1804 - 1806.
Maybe they did take some diseases with them, but Old World diseases had already had a devastating effect on the Native American population prior to this.

.... before them there were no epidemics.

Using an estimate of approximately 30 million people in 1492 (including 15 million in the Aztec Empire and six million in the Inca Empire), the lowest estimates give a death toll due from disease of an astonishing 80% by the end of the 17th century (eight million people in 1650).

en.wikipedia.org...

A guy named Nicholas Biddle funded that expedition. He was the president of the US Central Bank. He also edited the final report of that expedition. Take from that what you will.

Nicholas Biddle was 18years old in 1804 at the start of The Lewis and Clark expedition and was known to be in France during 1804.
The Lewis and Clark expedition was commissioned by the President Of The United States at the time Thomas Jefferson.
Biddle became President of The Second Bank Of The United States in 1822.
Yes, he did contribute to editing the final report of The Lewis and Clark expedition.

Make of that what you will.

Incidentally many Indians did survive the diseases, some with hideous scars, but still alive.

Of course many survived, a hell of a lot didn't.

Originally posted by jimmyx
quit using the collective "we"...I feel absolutely no guilt for what happened to the native American Indians. I was born in 1952, and had nothing to do with them or racism against blacks. trying to falsely shame me and others, that had nothing to do with it then, or have had nothing to do with it during our lifetimes, invalidates the very argument you are trying to make.

i don't think we should feel guilty, but we shouldn't get defensive over the subject and we should acknowledge the fact that there was a terrible injustice done and that the western hemisphere was taken by force. we shouldn't buy into the fairy tale that the first americans were these peaceful pilgrims we paint them out to be. from the very beginning the explorers lied, cheated and exploited the people and land that is the americas.

Originally posted by jimmyx
quit using the collective "we"...I feel absolutely no guilt

Run a simple search before you make stupid and false comment like this.

tadaman was the only one who used "we" referring to the settlers on page 33.

TheIceQueen was the only one who used it o\referring to the settlers on the page before that.

I used the word "we" to refer to the people in this forum discussing the topic.

Read first before you insult.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman
he didn't insult you.

you mad or something?

in 30 something pages the term was used alot.

are you an American by the way? did you even study American history here? Nothing mentioned here goes beyond a grade school education in social studies.....who is pretending like nothing bad ever happened?
If not you're a revisionist European shifting blame....

If you are then you just either spent the whole thread refering to the US while excluding yourself from it or placing yourself in it.....or in others words saying "we"

we all learned this at age 10 in the US....

Originally posted by conspiracy nut

 

i don't think we should feel guilty, but we shouldn't get defensive over the subject and we should acknowledge the fact that there was a terrible injustice done and that the western hemisphere was taken by force. we shouldn't buy into the fairy tale that the first americans were these peaceful pilgrims we paint them out to be. from the very beginning the explorers lied, cheated and exploited the people and land that is the americas.

I am beginning to think that there is possibly an agenda, beyond the 'not feel guilty' mantra.

Interesting to note that nobody here advocated Americans of today should feel guilty. The only ones who come up with this 'feeling' are those who claim they are 'not feeling'.

So what is their agenda?

check that.

the OP is riddled with the term "we" and most posts afterwards by the OP and Americans in agreement with this lame ass white guilt used the term "we"

speak for yourselves.

Originally posted by tadaman

 

If not you're a revisionist European shifting blame....

This is getting absurd. Shoot the messenger, again.

Your attempts to shift blame are so vain and transparent, it is laughable.

Originally posted by tadaman
check that.

the OP is riddled with the term "we" and most posts afterwards by the OP and Americans in agreement with this lame ass white guilt used the term "we"

speak for yourselves.

The OP was about 30 pages ago, count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 16 ... ok whatever

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


the only agenda is butt hurt and the aim to place the US in a bad light by attributing other peoples sins to it as if something is owed to someone. Maybe someone feels slighted and is too lazy to read what really happened beyond blindly accepting some ill placed sentiment of superiority for being in the "we are so sorry" crowd.

you think you are the first person to try this crap? You act like this is out of a noble intention to seek out truth when in reality the facts are well known and there exists no effort to hide them. That said you can't distort them yourself in the opposite direction for the same reasons the facts were sought after to begin with.

you're upset with the US and instead of channelling that sentiment into something constructive you take a defeatist attitude and proceed to hate something out of spite.

You think you are better than others for this little angry and fictitious diatribe professing the evils of the US?
Are you REALLY trying to make it better or just out to hurt people who still love their country and their people?

what is it? why did you even make this thread? Is this what you and your disillusioned friends talk about while sipping java in the developed world?

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


you still used the term. You did so many times throughout. speak for yourself

you felt the need to belittle a fellow member because he disagreed with you and asked you to take your little hate blame crap elsewhere. We are not impressed.

Originally posted by tadaman

 

you still used the term. You did so many times throughout. speak for yourself

you felt the need to belittle a fellow member because he disagreed with you and asked you to take your little hate blame crap elsewhere. We are not impressed.

You just used "we" yourself. Its a dirty word now. All because those

Americans committed the worst genocide in world history.

But don't feel guilty.

Be happy and enjoy!

reply to post by tadaman

the only agenda is butt hurt and the aim to place the US in a bad light by attributing other peoples sins to it as if something is owed to someone. Maybe someone feels slighted and is too lazy to read what really happened beyond blindly accepting some ill placed sentiment of superiority for being in the "we are so sorry" crowd.

The butt hurt is coming from your own end of the equation.

You're plenty happy to be included in the "we" who

wrote the declaration of independence
and the constitution
and the pledge of allegiance
and "MY country tis of thee"
and the American national anthem
etc. etc. etc.

They're just as dead as the ones who killed Indians for a career so you could call it "MY" country, but you're perfectly okay with that "we".

Hypocrisy in the morning. Almost as sweet as napalm.

(I haven't forgotten you, freeborn.)

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


so you got nothing huh.....that's what I thought. just rhetoric and word play.
you just made your argument..if you can call it that...... as absurd and sophmoric as that reply....

nice one.

I dont blame you though. It is impossible to prove a fundamentally flawed and ill informed argument based on ones own opinion. You can try to convince people of it of coarse but it really isn't the same as proving it.

I take it that you refuse to back up your claim of the US committing the "worst" genocide in history....ok fair enough.

we should take from that that you see the error of your argument and just can't bring yourself to admit it openly.

ok.

reply to post by frazzle


more rhetoric? where do you people come up with this stuff?

I can not be assigned anothers guilt or apathy. This entire argument is retarded.

I can agree with something like a code of law that everyone agrees upon. That does represent me and all because that's its purpose....

duh I guess. It worries me that this would escape you......you like drive and vote and stuff????? wow.

Originally posted by tadaman

 

nice one.
I take it that you refuse to back up your claim of the US committing the "worst" genocide in history....ok fair enough

Why would I need to back down? You have not even tried to offer a better number. Until you do...

Americans committed the worst genocide in world history.