Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by windword


It comes from their use of El which was the planet Saturn.

Text If early church fathers would have embraced reincarnation, Christianity would still be alive and well, with oversoul Jesus being our light at the end of the tunnel.

reply to post by windword


Which early church fathers are you referencing? The first Jewish Christian Jerusalem Church or the Roman butchers who systematically murdered them and called it the Gentile Catholic church. Most people are not even taught the difference. I guess it depends upon who you want to believe but to better answer your question it would be -- No, reincarnation is not taught by Jesus or the Apostles or the Disciples of the Jerusalem church.

If Jesus or the Jerusalem church would have embraced reincarnation, He most certainly would not have double talked and taught about hell. Can't be both ways. How can you keep getting a new soul with the same old spirit and still have a hell to punish that spirit? Makes no sense to anyone who can rationalize.

I guess God could toss that spirit into hell for a little while and then give it another chance. But then what would be the sense in that if the guy who is reincarnated never remembers what he did wrong in the first place? That would be like a drill instructor slapping you alongside the head for screwing up and you can't remember what you screwed up. Man you would be in boot camp forever wouldn't you? Well?

reply to post by Oceanborn

Anyway,if the popularity of each religion is what concerns you then know that Christianity isn't that popular.

That's why I stated that Christianity was the springboard. Even after Christianity looses it's support, the idea of a One and Only Creator God remains as far as a political reality that influences people's thinking.

Think about it. Deism posits the same character. Atheism, to a large extent, is also a direct reaction to that same character.

reply to post by Oceanborn

Also,the Christians of those times were dying for their own beliefs. They were dying horrible deaths. Don't you think that they would notice if someone would mess with those beliefs?

What times? If you mean before the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, there was no unified concept of what Christianity was. In fact, there were "Christians" before Christianity. The "Christ" was a conceptual ethereal being that was worshiped under a few names. Chrestus, Christos and Sol Invictus to name a few.

Celtic and Druid slaves from Brittiania were being blamed for drought, disease and disorder, and as a result, in hopes of staving off anger from the gods and calming the population, Nero had many of them brutally murdered, and history labeled them as Christians. www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by pthena


If I got this right you're saying that monotheism is being fed to us and one of the ways is Christianity.
If that is so then why the lifestyle that is pushed on us by the world's leaders is doing the exact opposite thing? Driving us away from Christianity? Take a look even at many who claim to be Christians,they're so far from Christ's path they can't even see it and the worst part is many of them are clueless about it.
That being said,Christianity will be around as long as humanity exists. That's what I think.

reply to post by Oceanborn


Those pagan themes are part of the bible, that's the part you're not acknowledging. You not seeing them does not mean they aren't there. They are, it's just you don't want to see them there.

Why don't you think they could have done it with Christian beliefs? What makes Christian doctrine so special compared to others that it is incorruptible or unchangeable?

Who were the heretics and how do you know they weren't actually the true Christians with Jesus' real message that Rome changed? What if the "heretics" message was the one changed?

Tex Reincarnation was not foreign to early Christianity, in fact it was embraced. It was 500+ later that the Catholic Church banned the concept, without a Papal writ, and began burning and otherwise destroying any remnant of it in the Bible and in the writings of the early elders.

reply to post by windword


Hog wash-- Give me your source to even make a statement like that, Jesus has never embraced reincarnation of the soul's spirit that has died. In the first place Christianity would have never have gotten off the ground with that philosophy. It is contrary to the teaching of the Christ and would even demean His purpose to have come in the flesh in the first place. Show me in the accepted manuscripts even the mention of reincarnation and I don't mean resurrection. Resurrection is a one shot deal for the spirit and has nothing in common with reincarnation.

Now if you were to say that reincarnation was not foreign to that generation, then I would have to agree. There were many people that embraced reincarnation but it sure was not Jesus or the first Christian Church. If you were to to say the Roman Catholic organizations, who decimated the Jews, then that could very well contain some truth as they did embrace about every cult of that era. .

reply to post by Oceanborn

If that is so then why the lifestyle that is pushed on us by the world's leaders is doing the exact opposite thing? Driving us away from Christianity?

The post-exile Judaic priesthood/intelligentsia chose polytheist Cyrus the Great as Messiah for their own plan for World domination. Judaic Intelligentsia doesn't give a rat's ass how people live or believe as long as they hold the actual political/financial reins of power.

Monotheism is as real as people think it is in their heads even if they are completely heinous dissolute drunkards and whoremongers. That's the power of ruling over the wicked.

Christianity will be around as long as humanity exists. That's what I think.

I agree. It will exist in both of it's manifestations:
1) Individual people trying to follow a loving/giving life style
2) Large political blocks of influence.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Oceanborn

 

Also,the Christians of those times were dying for their own beliefs. They were dying horrible deaths. Don't you think that they would notice if someone would mess with those beliefs?

What times? If you mean before the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, there was no unified concept of what Christianity was. In fact, there were "Christians" before Christianity. The "Christ" was a conceptual ethereal being that was worshiped under a few names. Chrestus, Christos and Sol Invictus to name a few.

Celtic and Druid slaves from Brittiania were being blamed for drought, disease and disorder, and as a result, in hopes of staving off anger from the gods and calming the population, Nero had many of them brutally murdered, and history labeled them as Christians. www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 2-7-2013 by windword because: added link

I've done these conversations before,that's why I didn't bother starting one now. That's why I didn't even reply to the OP.

About the killed Christians not being Christians. Give me the author's sources and we'll take it from there.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Oceanborn

 

Those pagan themes are part of the bible, that's the part you're not acknowledging. You not seeing them does not mean they aren't there. They are, it's just you don't want to see them there.

Why don't you think they could have done it with Christian beliefs? What makes Christian doctrine so special compared to others that it is incorruptible or unchangeable?

Who were the heretics and how do you know they weren't actually the true Christians with Jesus' real message that Rome changed? What if the "heretics" message was the one changed?

About the first one. You're the one making the connections with paganism and you haven't even tell me your reasoning. You just made connections with things you wanted.
You wouldn't call three random people on the street as symbolic but you do with the wise men. Why? Because you want to,it's simple.

Do what with Christian beliefs,change it? I followed your logic for a moment and I told you,if they could,why didn't they do it again and have the heretics included in the party? Your logic is that they could and did change it. So what happened when the heretics showed up? It could only happen once? Is there a limit about those things?

About the third one. I judge em by their fruits.

reply to post by pthena


They do care because they wouldn't have power over Christians. How would they do that? Not with money,not with entertainment,not with lust,not with power. They can't have Christians under control,that's why they lead people away from it.

reply to post by Oceanborn


Lol, I've already given you reasons, you're just ignoring them.

Those random people on the street have absolutely no connection to religion and power structures. Those three people don't have billions of people following them and are not preaching a book as "truth". You're comparing apples to oranges.

The thing is, you are the one who DOESN'T want that connection made and ignore the obvious connection because it goes against your preconceived notions of the bible being the word of god.

Who are the heretics you're talking about? The Gnostics? As I said, the Gnostics may very well have been the real Christians who held Jesus' true message, only the Romans came in, killed them, then changed their message to fit their needs then burned and banned any of the teachings they deemed "heretical" to their new power structure.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Except the Gnostics believed in a salvation through works and knowledge, whereas Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through him . . .

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Neither the orion's belt has a connections with Christianity but you made it.
Neither the "other" three people (the wise men) had billions of people following them.
There's nothing there except the number three really. If there was a symbolism about it that would mean that the orion's belt has some significance and yet nothing is mentioned about it or anything similar.

So they got into so much trouble while they could just mix the both religions together? It would be easier than mixing the polytheistic religions. Instead of doing that they chose to exterminate the one side. Why? They weren't doing that with others.
The religion-mixing (something that you agreed upon) was happening to keep the people happy. What's the point of changing it and then exterminate one side? Either just alter the religion or just exterminate them.

Edit:

The thing is, you are the one who DOESN'T want that connection made and ignore the obvious connection because it goes against your preconceived notions of the bible being the word of god.

I'm right here. Show me why those connection stand true. So far I've only seen connection of the type that anyone can make about anything.
You showed me the connections but there's no reasoning behind them,is it my fault?

Man...and to think that I was actually trying to avoid this mess.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Didn't Jesus teach us to do good works through his teachings of loving one another? Through him (his teachings) could you achieve salvation.

Good works = salvation and heaven on Earth. Jesus didn't teach anything different.

reply to post by Oceanborn


They altered the religion AND exterminated them. Why can't both be done? Because you don't want to see it that way?

What makes you so certain that Rome decided out of nowhere to change its ways and NOT alter a religion to fit their needs? They had been doing it for over a thousand years, why would they change with Jesus and his teachings?

Did you know that once Constantine decided to legalize Christianity, he killed all the pagans who refused to convert? What do you mean they didn't exterminate both sides?

Text What times? If you mean before the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, there was no unified concept of what Christianity was. In fact, there were "Christians" before Christianity. The "Christ" was a conceptual ethereal being that was worshiped under a few names. Chrestus, Christos and Sol Invictus to name a few. Celtic and Druid slaves from Brittiania were being blamed for drought, disease and disorder, and as a result, in hopes of staving off anger from the gods and calming the population, Nero had many of them brutally murdered, and history labeled them as Christians

reply to post by windword


@ windword

You are dead in the water wrong on all counts.

There was a unified concept of Christianity many years before the Roman organizations took the concept by force. This concept was the Jerusalem church which was established by the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus at the day of Pentecost after Jesus died. In fact this first Christian Church existed for well over forty years and was known as the first Christian church of Jerusalem. The liturgy was entirely Hebrew and Rome had nothing to do with its foundation or existence. In fact it had even started to branch off the mother church when the Sanhedrin and Romans murdered the Christians and drove them from their churches. Hadrian put the final sword into them in 135 Ad when he again decimated the Jews and destroyed all church records that he could find.

The first recorded use of the word Christians was used in the NT in the book of Acts. There is no other record of this name being used before Jesus the Christ was known to the world.

Act 11:26 And finding him, he brought him to Antioch. And it happened to them a whole year they were assembled in the church. And they taught a considerable crowd. And the disciples were first called Christian in Antioch.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


But their needs was to keep everybody happy under the empire's control. That's why the whole thing was happening. Why would they keep mixing religions otherwise,to keep themselves busy? What I've just said is what makes me certain. The whole thing was to keep people happy,that was the whole point of it.

Did you know that once Constantine decided to legalize Christianity, he killed all the pagans who refused to convert? What do you mean they didn't exterminate both sides?

I know he killed the pagans,that was the one side. If the religion mixing was keep on going then he'd mix Christianity with their religions,have everybody happy and call it a day.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Didn't Jesus teach us to do good works through his teachings of loving one another? Through him (his teachings) could you achieve salvation.

Good works = salvation and heaven on Earth. Jesus didn't teach anything different.

Good works are part of it yes. However you are completely ignoring the whole believing in the one true God and that he was a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. That whole accept the love of the Father being the most important rule of all.

I think your constant cherry picking is keeping you from seeing the big picture here.

I also thought it was hilarious that you are promoting Gnosticism and then at the same time mocking their beliefs of reptilians from Saturn (EL) as aliens. Their idea of reptilians from Saturn (shiva and his serpent illumination) creating false realities which deceive people falls right in line with your reincarnation/ ascended master theory.

It is very clear that you are going to mock and throw cherry picked concepts at anything that does not agree with your beliefs. Like saying you don't need to pray to Jesus because you have the same soul and then saying you pray to him everyday.

Also do you think your Dionysus is Jesus allegory still stands after my response to it?

reply to post by Oceanborn


Why did they mix religions before Christianity? You believe they changed all of a sudden? No they didn't.

I guess the best way to keep the citizens happy was by killing them, torturing them, and throwing them to the lions, right? Sorry, but that makes zero sense. If pagans were that "one side" then what do you call the persecution of Christians by Rome before Christianity's legalization? Does that not count as a side to you?

The idea of Jesus dying for our sins was the perfect set up to make the masses complacent and uncaring. If someone forgave sins, that means they also forgive future sins as well, it also gave them (TPTB) a scapegoat to justify all their past and future sins because they believe Jesus' "true" message and spread it to the common people.

Originally posted by Seede

Tex Reincarnation was not foreign to early Christianity, in fact it was embraced. It was 500+ later that the Catholic Church banned the concept, without a Papal writ, and began burning and otherwise destroying any remnant of it in the Bible and in the writings of the early elders.

reply to post by windword

 

Hog wash-- Give me your source to even make a statement like that,

Sigh, did you read the OP? I realize that we're on page 25 of this thread, but a lot of your questions and objections have been addressed and are still open on the discussion table.

Jesus has never embraced reincarnation of the soul's spirit that has died.

That's just not true. There are many times that Jesus implied a reincarnative concept, most obvious is the conversation with Nicodemus. There is also the ongoing discussion of Elijah and John the Baptist.

Again, this thread is filled with examples of the scriptural suggestion of reincarnation. Again, these have already been presented by me and others, throughout the thread, and are on the table for discussion.

In the first place Christianity would have never have gotten off the ground with that philosophy. It is contrary to the teaching of the Christ and would even demean His purpose to have come in the flesh in the first place.

Not at all. I completely disagree with you.

Show me in the accepted manuscripts even the mention of reincarnation and I don't mean resurrection. Resurrection is a one shot deal for the spirit and has nothing in common with reincarnation.

Could we start the ones in the OP?

Now if you were to say that reincarnation was not foreign to that generation, then I would have to agree. There were many people that embraced reincarnation

I agree.

but it sure was not Jesus or the first Christian Church.

I disagree.

If you were to to say the Roman Catholic organizations, who decimated the Jews, then that could very well contain some truth as they did embrace about every cult of that era.

The Catholic Church banned the concept of reincarnation and it's discussion around 550 AD.

Please re-read the OP and at least skim through the thread to see what has already been brought to the table, so that we can move forward from there.