Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Right. The Gnostics and the Cathars were converted to death by Catholics.

Right . . .

What is your point?

My response was in continuation of the conversation that you initiated here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

My point, besides the inquisitions and the crusades, the wars against the Celts, and natives populations, the Gnostics and Cathers, as well as any other group that clung to their beliefs and that didn't align with their divine doctrine, including those that embraced the concept of reincarnation, were killed.

Reincarnation was not foreign to early Christianity, in fact it was embraced. It was 500+ later that the Catholic Church banned the concept, without a Papal writ, and began burning and otherwise destroying any remnant of it in the Bible and in the writings of the early elders.

For the few that might be interested:

Since emperor Constantine was mentioned earlier (highly despised in ATS for keeping heresies apart from christianity) I'd like to do something similar. I'd like to talk about an empire and that would be Rome.

Rome had the tactic of absorbing the cultures and religions of the conquered and mixing them with theirs to keep everybody happy. One of the problems the empire had with Christians was that they wouldn't worship Rome's gods.

Here we are in 2013 and what do you see?

reply to post by Oceanborn


We see people worshiping Rome's version of Jesus?

I think the history of Rome absorbing and morphing other cultures to fit their needs plus all of the pagan symbolism in Jesus' life should be a huge red flag to anyone. It's so obvious that they tampered with the story of Jesus, yet some refuse to see it.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


"Rome's version" how? Why?

As for the "pagan symbolism",are there such things in the New Testament?

reply to post by windword


Yes I am aware of this, however it was not just the type of reincarnation you are talking about. One of the more dominate conceptions of the beliefs where that the rebirth was one more life on this Earth while the sinners stayed buried.

What do you think about the Archons of the Gnostics whom were reptilian beings who induced false realities in people and the clear connection between kundalini meditations and 'past life' experiences or meeting 'ascended masters'?

The texts even cite them as having a base on Saturn which draws a strong connection to Shiva and his 3rd eye.

reply to post by Oceanborn


The virgin birth and miracles are pagan symbolism. The virgin birth with the three wise men has to do with the stars and the miracles are naturally occurring events given a supernatural twist.

What was the point of your post? I thought that's what you were hinting at.

ETA: The resurrection is also pagan symbolism.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


I assure you that I haven't talked to aliens. Are you trying to say we have been tricked into believing the things we believe? Because I find that pretty ironic.

How are you so sure you haven't been tricked by aliens? How are you so sure your reality isn't a false one planted in your brain by aliens?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Oceanborn

 

The virgin birth and miracles are pagan symbolism. The virgin birth with the three wise men has to do with the stars and the miracles are naturally occurring events given a supernatural twist.

What was the point of your post? I thought that's what you were hinting at.

You're not really giving me anything here.
About the virgin birth,I have read posts were people talk about other religions that do mention a virgin birth. Is that what you meant? If yes,shouldn't we also mention those religions and compare them with Christianity? Because in the past I saw that people were looking for the smallest of similarities and when they'd find one they would isolate it and keep it out of context.
I don't see how the birth and the wise men have to do with the stars in general. There was a star guiding them,I know that but that's pretty much it. Christ didn't talk about them or used them in any way.

About the miracles,that's just your opinion and as far as I remember,most of them weren't natural occurring events.

Edit: I missed your later addition. You also say the ressurection is pagan. How? You're not giving me anything here.

Also I forgot to say that the point of my post was the tactic of mixing cultures and religions to keep various kinds of people "united" under a single empire.

reply to post by Oceanborn


Three wise men = Orion's Belt, them following stars is clearly astrological/pagan in origin

Turning water into wine = water fertilizing soil in order to grow grapes which in turn can be made into wine

Walking on water = the suns reflection "walking" on water or the sun "walking" over the horizon when it sets/rises

Feeding five thousand = with two fish (male and female), many more fish will be made; with five loaves of bread, a crop of wheat can be made from its seeds

Coin and the fish = fishermen selling their catch for money

Healing the sick = over time people will be healed naturally

Resurrection = pagan symbolism of the winter solstice

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

First of all,the sick Christ healed weren't going to be healed otherwise. Blind,deaf,lepers etc. Those wouldn't heal by themselves.

You're giving your own understanding of those things but I don't see how they're connected with Christianity in any way. How can you say that they indeed symbolise those things? For instance,just because the wise men were three that means that they have to be symbolising orion's belt? What if I'll see a company of three men tomorrow,walking on the street? Should I assume they're trying to pass the symbolism of the orion's belt? Would you?

I see how you made these connections but there's nothing to validate them.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Can you provide a link to that text?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


You realize that sins which Jesus was bearing was symbolized by the (solar) cross don't you?

That would indicate that the solar worship you try to attribute to him would be the sin which he was bearing and died upon. This is mentioned in the Bible with the worship of Tammuz facing the East.

The water being turned into wine at the wedding was likely a reference to the old Dionysian (god of wine and debauchery) cults of illumination except that the illumination being referenced was from the one true God which did not involve the behavior of the Dionysian s.

You fail to mention Jesus as the solar man with the 12 disciples/tribes of the zodiac.

As to your comment about people being healed with time naturally . . .

LOL Jajajajajaja say that to the next AIDS/ HIV sufferer you meet.

EDIT
Here you go windword;

The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org...

reply to post by Oceanborn


There's nothing to validate them just as there's nothing to validate the miracles actually happening.

What validates them for me is the fact that Rome was pagan before it legalized Christianity, and you yourself admitted that Rome took others ideas/cultures and morphed them to fit their own needs.

The oldest surviving copy of the gospels is dated to the 4th century, around the same time as Rome legalizing Christianity. You can think that that is a coincidence, but I choose to believe there is a reason for that.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Yes, I have actually done a thread on the Jesus/Dionysus/Bacchus connection. What Rome did was morph Jesus from a regular man into their new version of Bacchus. Bacchus even rose from the dead and had a mortal as his mother and god as his father, just like Jesus. Except Bacchus/Dionysus predate Jesus by hundreds of years

You make that connection yet you do not realize that Rome is who created that connection in the first place by adding in those miracles to the story.

reply to post by Oceanborn

For instance,just because the wise men were three that means that they have to be symbolising orion's belt?

The number 3 was attached to the wise men when the governor of New Mexico wrote the novel Ben Hur.

reply to post by Oceanborn

One of the problems the empire had with Christians was that they wouldn't worship Rome's gods.

Here we are in 2013 and what do you see?

What I see is that Christianity has been used as a springboard to inject the post-exile invention of One and Only Creator god as per Isaiah 44-46. This invented one and only has supplanted the traditional gods and has gained approximately 75% market share in the World today.

That's what I see. Blaming paganism is one great big red herring designed to confuse people.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

There's nothing to validate them just as there's nothing to validate the miracles actually happening.

Yes but your beliefs aren't included in the New Testament so they have no connection with Christianity. In the other hand,the miracles are in the NT.

What validates them for me is the fact that Rome was pagan before it legalized Christianity, and you yourself admitted that Rome took others ideas/cultures and morphed them to fit their own needs.

Rome indeed absorbed cultures and religions and mixed them together. Something that they couldn't do with Christians. Also they couldn't make Christians pay loyalty to their deities which it was a sign of treason if I remember correctly. It is documented that they couldn't,they were asking Christians to pay homage to the Roman deities(among other things) and the Christians were refusing.

Also,if what you claim is true,they'd normally do the same for the heretics. Mix the heretics and the Christians together by altering again the Christian religion and,voila,everybody's happy. Why didn't they do that instead? By your beliefs,they could alter the religion if they wished to do so.

Also,the Christians of those times were dying for their own beliefs. They were dying horrible deaths. Don't you think that they would notice if someone would mess with those beliefs?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Dionysus was Pan the constellation Capricorn (see Enki/EA Babylon ruled by the planet Saturn/Shiva) . . . Isis the cow/ Apis bull/ Mithras' bull are all the examples of a crucial difference between Jesus and the various 'enlightened' ones.

Jesus had 12 disciples as opposed to being merely represented as the "house" (zodiac sign) which the sun was in. It is a clear reference to him being the Sun (son) sitting at the right hand of his creator. The 12 disciples where that he was above mere representation as the house. IE the he was there at the beginning and the end of the cycle.

Also Dionysus was not a virgin birth it was a rape . . . it was preceded by a deception by a shape shifter.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


I suppose that you are referring to The Hypostasis of the Archons (The Reality of the Rulers)?

I don't see the reptile / Saturn connection nor any connection to the idea that only "good" people will reincarnate. Perhaps you could quote the text that suggests what it is you're trying to convey?

I do understand the idea of the demiurge or creation, and that Gnotics and Cathars thought that the God of the Old Testament was actually "the evil one", and that this reality was created by the rape of the shadow image of the goddess.

This story and it's allegory, while interesting, does little to effect my beliefs toward my own pre-existence and reincarnation.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Oceanborn

One of the problems the empire had with Christians was that they wouldn't worship Rome's gods.

Here we are in 2013 and what do you see?

What I see is that Christianity has been used as a springboard to inject the post-exile invention of One and Only Creator god as per Isaiah 44-46. This invented one and only has supplanted the traditional gods and has gained approximately 75% market share in the World today.

That's what I see. Blaming paganism is one great big red herring designed to confuse people.

Well,the way you presented this confused me a bit (english is not my mother language).

Anyway,if the popularity of each religion is what concerns you then know that Christianity isn't that popular. Lots of people claim to be Christian,I know that. What if I'll say that I'm Bin Laden,would that be true? Off course not.

Personally I don't blame paganism. I do blame the ones who like to manipulate people though.