Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

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posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 03:37 PM
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{Disclaimer: Christianity is the religion I know best, but all ideas and input on this subject, regardless of religious affiliations, are welcome.
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Is a shiny, brand new, innocent soul created every time a woman's egg is fertilized? If so, doesn't that make the soul a biological manifestation? How then can one justify the belief that the soul doesn't die, but the body does?

If the soul is a biological manifestation, why the concept of rewards and punishments in the afterlife? But if the soul pre-existed before the body existed, would the actions of that soul, prior to it's earthly incarnation dictate the circumstances of that body?

When Jesus promised eternal life, was he speaking of a universal truth, or some magical, spiritual life giving spell, that only Jesus can impart? If Jesus was correct, and all the "born again" are bestowed with eternal life, and are free as the wind, is it possible that those souls could choose to reincarnate in a new earthly body?

Did Jesus teach reincarnation?

The idea of reincarnation states that you can be punished for your actions in a future lifetime. However, the other side of the coin is that you have more than one lifetime to work out your salvation.

Early Catholic church father, Origen Adamantius asserted that we get the body that we deserve.


Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions? www.earlychristianwritings.com...


He also asserts that we spiritually"outgrow" our bodies.


It can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body... then it is beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are ever vanishing and ever reappearing. —Origen

LINK

St Gregory stated:

"...But since there is a necessity that the defilements which sin has engendered in the soul as well should be removed thence by some remedial process, the medicine which virtue supplies has, in the life that now is, been applied to the healing of such mutilations as these. If, however, the soul remains unhealed, the remedy is dispensed in the life that follows this.." – Great Catechism.
www.ccel.org...


During the time period of the life of Jesus, reincarnation was a widely accepted view of many, including some Jews. Jewish historian Josephus writes, in his Antiquities of the Jewish people (18, 1, 3) that reincarnation was taught widely in his day.

There are passages of the New Testament that can be only deciphered if looked at in the context that the pre-existence of souls as a generally accepted belief. For example, Matthew 16:13-14 says that when Jesus asked his disciples "Whom do men say that I am?" they replied that some people said he was John the Baptist, who had been beheaded a few years before. Some thought he was Elijah, or Jeremiah. Matthew 17:13, Jesus never rejects the concept of reincarnation, as he tells his disciples that John the Baptist was Elijah.


And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


Jesus never rejected the the possibility that the blind man could have sinned before his birth.

So, if reincarnation was a widely held belief, and Jesus never dismissed the concept, and in fact taught about it, and early church fathers wrote concerning the idea of reincarnation, why do the Christian churches so adamently reject it's possible reality?

Is it because reincarnation gives a person more than one chance, removing the tactic of desperation? Is it because it would make Jesus' supposed resurrection allegorical and not such a big deal, as we all die and are reborn?

What would happen if Christians began to openly accept the concept of reincarnation? Would the world stop spinning?





edit on 27-6-2013 by windword because: t




posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 03:44 PM
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Christianity and reincarnation repel each other like oil and water.

We can not EARN heaven – not in one lifetime or a million.

That’s why we needed Jesus to be our savior.



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


We need Jesus to save us from what?



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


The burning pits of Murgatroid! Oh heavens to Betsy.... Hell, ya know... Fire and brimstone... Eternal damnation...

Depends what POV you take on religion....

If Jesus spoke about re-incarnation it's in the Vaults of the vatican and are never to see the light of day because it would change the whole religious debacle they have majority of the world indocterinated to believe...

On that note, I believe in re-incarnation and that we existed prior to coming to earth. Call me crazy



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 04:38 PM
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This is a fascinating documentary that discusses how and why the Roman Catholic Church came to ban the concepts of reincarnation.




posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


If reincarnation was a "known" fact and accepted throught the world, things would be very different around this world.

It was for good reasons of "Controlling" the masses that all accounts of Re-Incarnation was taken out of all religions. Well a good 75~89% by my count


This is a deep rabbit hole your going down, it's a good one for sure at that


There are several cases of re-incarnation that many on ATS will discredit but all can't be debunked and using a logical mind in a ilogical world isn't always the best way to be.

I'm not sure how far you've looked into re-incarnation but you'll have a lot of fun and will open many doors in your mind during your research. Don't forget to drink lots of water


Good luck on your journey~



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by windword
We need Jesus to save us from what?

From Religion...

I became convinced about reincarnation last year after I realized that counterfeit religion is all one huge lie.

When I began to see that reincarnation was connected to false religions, that's when I knew that it was just another ploy to mislead people away from the truth.


"Why would Satan bother coming up with a big lie about reincarnation? What's the point?"

Mankind has an innate desire to commune with God. It is in our nature, because God put it there. Satan will use any means available to lead people away from God. He doesn't have to get people to believe there is no god, he simply has to get them to not believe in the Christian God. A simple way for him to do this is with counterfeit religious experiences such as "reincarnation past-lives."

Reincarnation -- Satan's Second-Biggest Lie

Reincarnation comes from Hinduism, Buddhism, and New Age beliefs which are proven Illuminati mind control tools. When the evidence is examined, the findings show that reincarnation is more lies and religious propaganda.

1) God NEVER lies.

2) Religion ALWAYS lies.


The question will doubtless come up, "How can we determine if this is really the true answer? What makes this any more believable than Reincarnation?" The fact that Jesus Christ, the source of our salvation, rose from the dead to demonstrate His power to save us.

You cannot believe in both the concepts of Resurrection and Reincarnation at the same time, although some New Age groups try. The Christian doctrine of the Resurrection teaches that because of Jesus' bodily Resurrection from the grave, all the dead will one day rise from the dead with "resurrection bodies."

If you keep being reborn in different bodies, how are you going to shoehorn a resurrection in there? And if you did, which of the hundreds of bodies would you be resurrected in? Would you be a man or a woman?

Is Reincarnation an Answer?



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


Reincarnation isn't a religion. It is a philosophy that is and can be incorporated into many different belief systems.

Don't forget Jesus Christ is a religious figure, celebrated in the Christian religion. If you believe in Jesus, then you adhere to a religious belief, which also incorporates reincarnation philosophies.

Like Evolution theory, reincarnation and Christianity CAN co-exist.



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 



The question will doubtless come up, "How can we determine if this is really the true answer? What makes this any more believable than Reincarnation?" The fact that Jesus Christ, the source of our salvation, rose from the dead to demonstrate His power to save us.

You cannot believe in both the concepts of Resurrection and Reincarnation at the same time, although some New Age groups try. The Christian doctrine of the Resurrection teaches that because of Jesus' bodily Resurrection from the grave, all the dead will one day rise from the dead with "resurrection bodies."

If you keep being reborn in different bodies, how are you going to shoehorn a resurrection in there? And if you did, which of the hundreds of bodies would you be resurrected in? Would you be a man or a woman?

Is Reincarnation an Answer?


This argument supposes that, indeed, the soul is a biological manifestation, and that someday, some god person will come along and reactivate your DNA, and your old self, cloned, and your soul will live together in eternity!


But if reincarnation is true, how will this god person know who's soul attach to which body?!
( Oh No! Should I take the female version or the male version? )

So because, if we agree that you say that the soul is a biological manifestation, reincarnation is illogical, because no one can have two souls. Right?



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by windword
 



So, if reincarnation was a widely held belief, and Jesus never dismissed the concept, and in fact taught about it, and early church fathers wrote concerning the idea of reincarnation, why do the Christian churches so adamently reject it's possible reality?

Origen wrote on the pre-existence of the soul, not reincarnation, and the person being born blind refers to God's omniscience, exactly as stated in Psalm 139.

That's what, the fifth time I've told you that in the recent past?



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Jesus obviously knew about reincarnation... Look at his conversation with Nicodemus...

He told him specifically YOU must be born again... because he was a Pharisee... the group that Jesus said we're the children of the devil...

the church changed his actual meaning to something that happens within this life time...

Job clears it up though...


20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.


case closed... Christians refuse to accept the possibility of reincarnation because they all believe they're going to heaven.... with a one way ticket.

I believe many Christians will be in for a supprise

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:35 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


You can say it a trillion times, but you still won't be right.


It can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body... then it is beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are ever vanishing and ever reappearing.


There's no other way to interpret the above text other than reincarnation.


Psalm 139? Not seeing it.

edit on 27-6-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



He told him specifically YOU must be born again... because he was a Pharisee... the group that Jesus said we're the children of the devil...

Read in context, that scene with Nicodemus is obviously about a spiritual rebirth. It has nothing to do with reincarnation (or baptism, hopefully pre-empting a "truejew" diatribe, lol.) You were born physically, you must be reborn spiritually.


the church changed his actual meaning to something that happens within this life time...

And how do you know what his "actual meaning" was? Are you claiming that you are Jesus or Nicodemus?



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by windword
There's no other way to interpret the above text other than reincarnation.

Of course it can -- Origen is claiming that the soul is independent of the body, pre-existed it, and could chose to never incarnate if it wished.



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:46 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



Read in context, that scene with Nicodemus is obviously about a spiritual rebirth. It has nothing to do with reincarnation (or baptism, hopefully pre-empting a "truejew" diatribe, lol.) You were born physically, you must be reborn spiritually.


its exactly in context... the church tells you he meant spiritual rebirth... yet he said born again... Born of water and spirit... which is rebirth.

Listening to what others tell you as opposed to just reading what it says...


And how do you know what his "actual meaning" was? Are you claiming that you are Jesus or Nicodemus?


That's what It says... You must be born again....

DO you really think Jesus would be telling a Pharisee he must be spiritually reborn when they're completely convinced their ways are correct?

No no... He said it to a man who would never change his ways... he must be reborn into this world...

Its obvious... Christian interpretation of that scene is incorrect in my humble opinion




posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


I have seen, read, and watched many things regarding reincarnation. To me, there seems to be a lot of evidence (granted it's mostly "hearsay") that points to reincarnation happening. Mostly in the very young who "remember" things that they couldn't possibly know about an actual person that they claim to have been. I have read about one of these children who travelled to meet their "widow" - only to make the widow a believer by talking about things only the dead person could know. Many stories and studies that you can find online too. There also seems to be some "evidence" pointing to people who were killed suddenly in an accident or murdered - and their reincarnated body will have birthmarks or other markings that resemble a mortal wound. My youngest daughter has a large grouping of birthmarks on her lower back that sure look like the shot grouping of a shotgun blast...although she has never mentioned anything that would indicate a past life memory.

My friend - you need to also realize that Christianity has been corrupted by men who seek power and control. They scare you with tales of sin and hell...things that were deliberately misinterpreted to give control to the church. I am a Christian myself and I do not believe there is anything wrong at all in questioning beliefs that have been crammed down our throats by false doctrines and religious dogma.

After all - who did Christ Himself speak out against the most? The religious leaders - not the rest of us "sinners". Reincarnation is a subject that deserves to be looked into. I am not sure what exactly my thoughts are other than I certainly see it as a possibility. Perhaps we choose to come back over and over for new experiences - who knows for sure.



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen
 



Read in context, that scene with Nicodemus is obviously about a spiritual rebirth. It has nothing to do with reincarnation (or baptism, hopefully pre-empting a "truejew" diatribe, lol.) You were born physically, you must be reborn spiritually.


its exactly in context... the church tells you he meant spiritual rebirth... yet he said born again... Born of water and spirit... which is rebirth.

Listening to what others tell you as opposed to just reading what it says...

Okay, let's try reading what it says:


Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” (John 3:3-8 NIV)

I underlined the important bit -- there are two types of birth, and being born again means being born spiritually. There's nothing in there that says anyone is, or needs to be, born in the flesh multiple times.


DO you really think Jesus would be telling a Pharisee he must be spiritually reborn when they're completely convinced their ways are correct?

No no... He said it to a man who would never change his ways...

Um... spoiler alert. Nicodemus became a disciple of Jesus and, with Joseph of Arimathea, buried Christ after the crucifixion. If that's not changing your ways, I don't know what is -- and I'm guessing he wasn't physically reborn in the interim.



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
There's no other way to interpret the above text other than reincarnation.

Of course it can -- Origen is claiming that the soul is independent of the body, pre-existed it, and could chose to never incarnate if it wished.


Or, it could choose to incarnate and reincarnate as many times as it deems necessary.


edit on 27-6-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



Okay, let's try reading what it says:


Oh come on Adjensen... Don't you think I've read it literally hundreds of times?

Flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit.... but We are all born of flesh and spirit

The difference between the two... is that those that are oriented towards the flesh accept the ways of the flesh... and those who recognise the spirit accept the ways of the spirit...


I underlined the important bit -- there are two types of birth, and being born again means being born spiritually. There's nothing in there that says anyone is, or needs to be, born in the flesh multiple times.


So I suppose the quote from job is incorrect as well?


Um... spoiler alert. Nicodemus became a disciple of Jesus and, with Joseph of Arimathea, buried Christ after the crucifixion. If that's not changing your ways, I don't know what is -- and I'm guessing he wasn't physically reborn in the interim.


Well that's your guess... My guess is that he was reincarnated... given a body he deserved in his next life...

This belief that everything is ok once you repent your sins is amazing to me... Just like Paul... A self proclaimed murderer.... put many Christians to death... but it was all ok once he realized the error of his ways...

Basically saying.... Do whatever you like... kill, rape and pillage... no problem as long as you eventually repent...


its insanity...



posted on Jun, 27 2013 @ 06:10 PM
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Christians can't accept reincarnation because the idea destroys the foundation of their belief system....

IF reincarnation exists... Theres no need for Hell... Which is the backbone of their religion... Fear of Hell...

Which means no more control... no more fear based conversions.... its all over if reincarnation is accepted

Born again means exactly what it says.... rebirth...

And it is by no means a goal... though perhaps a little better then a lake of fire...

At least its logical... while the idea of hell has no basis in logic

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)





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