It shouldn't matter if you aren't doing anything wrong

I am more angry that the OP is stating that people who arent bothered by this as it is not affecting their lives, are somehow moronic.

European Leaders are just as stupid as American ones. Of course they would say that. But they obviously still do it.

Originally posted by Briles1207
I am more angry that the OP is stating that people who arent bothered by this as it is not affecting their lives, are somehow moronic.

So you get all bent out of shape over what you perceive to be a personal insult on the internet but your privacy and basically every other right you have means nothing to you? If privacy means nothing to you, why even bother with anything else? It's one of the defining characteristics of the human race. We don't mind socializing but we all need our privacy. Frankly, it's the people who can't respect that who are the ones who are frightening.

Freedom was never meant to be free. Our founders absolutely knew that innocent people would be victimized from time to time when they wrote the Constitution. But in their eyes, it was a fair price to pay for liberty.

At any rate, I knew instantly that you were in the UK without even looking. It's always UKers with this bizarre lack of respect for individuality and personal rights and freedoms. I wonder why that is?

Originally posted by Daedalus


show me the contract for the internet that says i legally waive my constitutional right to privacy.

as to opting out of internet usage...you first. i could do with a few less ignorant posts to reply to.

Oooh sorry...but when you state you could do with a few less ignorant posts to reply to..I didn't ask you to engage in a flame war with me. The point is this...people have either been fully aware or at least had strong suspicions about all this internet spying for years..probably including yourself. The fact you and everyone else continued to use the internet makes my point, if you really, REALLY cared about privacy you wouldn't use it.

And your calling me ignorant..well perhaps i am..but maybe your like millions of other who supposedly just had a bucket of cold reality poured over their heads and are currently in shock about all this? the rest of us are not one bit shocked because it was bl00dy obvious all along. And for the record I was never happy about it but I know the risk Im taking with my privacy whilst im online...that's why I never joined Facebook for one thing..HOW ABOUT YOU THOUGH???

Also, if it's not just the USA gov AKA Big Brother that can track you online...everyone can track everyone else online. Do you think its healthy and a move forward that you can drop a photograph from one place in the internet into Google image search and find matches, that will eventually lead you to the identity of that person??? Do you think it's a good thing you have sites like 4square that logs every place you go, due to your phone..dating websites like POF where people think they are keeping their identity "safe" simply because they dont use their real names..but rather use their real faces......These are just a couple of examples of how the online world is a minefield of intrusion and spying..And all the "smart" phones, owned by the dummest people, they can be tracked everywhere, as we all know full well...And if someone is a good hacker supposedly they can access all your hard drive and even turn on your web cam...We already knew all this yet we used the internet...Including you. to think Big Brother didn't exist in all that was ridiculous.

How many sites state that's your ip address is being recorded or that you getting cookies on your computer...I mean its everywhere you go online..this tracking..I dont like it..I never did...but you make a deal with the devil using the internet..And cell phones, we know they probably cause brain tumors, yet we cant stop using them...we know driving is a million times more dangerous than flying yet we still drive..we also know it causes pollution and oil wars, yet we still drive..many people drive one person to an SUV, that's how much people really give a 5h17...We dont as a collective species, because we are full of 5h17 and selfishness...and TPTB know that and encouraged it within us through the TV...Now we are sitting ducks...Your just acting like all this is a huge surprise to you...you couldn't possible be that dumb.

Originally posted by BrianFlanders

Originally posted by Briles1207
I am more angry that the OP is stating that people who arent bothered by this as it is not affecting their lives, are somehow moronic.

So you get all bent out of shape over what you perceive to be a personal insult on the internet but your privacy and basically every other right you have means nothing to you? If privacy means nothing to you, why even bother with anything else? It's one of the defining characteristics of the human race. We don't mind socializing but we all need our privacy. Frankly, it's the people who can't respect that who are the ones who are frightening.

Freedom was never meant to be free. Our founders absolutely knew that innocent people would be victimized from time to time when they wrote the Constitution. But in their eyes, it was a fair price to pay for liberty.

At any rate, I knew instantly that you were in the UK without even looking. It's always UKers with this bizarre lack of respect for individuality and personal rights and freedoms. I wonder why that is?

edit on 11-6-2013 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

I wouldnt say "UKers" have a lack of respect for individuality and persons rights & Freedoms.

We are the most watched country in europe, with the Most CCTV. Yet, I can protest where and when I like, I can express my opinion without fear of reprisal. I can go wherever I like with my family, and travel the length and breadth of the country unhindered.

I would say Americans have a self righteous nature which they think entitles them to throw their toys out of the pram anytime somebody suggests something which infringes on a piece of paper that has no modern relevance.

The constitution is out of date. You are bound to it. Thats is the opposite of being free. You will never evolve as a nation unless you can see past that.

The constitution was written at a time when it was relevant.

Did you know:

in North Carolina, it is illegal for dogs and cats to fight

in Massachusetts it is illegal to put tomatoes in clam chowder

a bartender in Nebraska cannot sell beer unless he is simultaneously brewing a kettle of soup

in Alabama it is illegal to wear a fake mustache that causes laughter during church services

No modern relevance.

In the UK it is still illegal (on a bit of paperatleast) to shake a mat outside of your front door. It was originally because it would scare the horses pulling carriages.

It is no longer relevant, and despite it being written down, nobody hides behind it or inforces it.

I am not saying dont have a constitution or rules to abide by, but come on guys, get with the programme!

Originally posted by DeadSeraph


Is it possible that the complacency and apathy we see in the average citizen over such issues is in fact a result of some of the indoctrination we've been through? Are they putting something in the water to pacify people? I just don't understand why people don't care?

It's like we are all sitting in the same car stalled on the train tracks, and we can see the train coming clear as day but we are all too lazy to just get out of the car...

I'm just baffled

Hey DeadSeraph, good thread and yes I'd have to more than agree with you that people are uncharacteristically apathetic and numb. So much so that it seems like the world at large are indeed brainwashed with the exception of the small percentage. Right now the world should be up in arms over the 'slow kill' policy taking place. Yet its the same old same old trying to get a rise out of people is equivalent to trying to wake someone out of a coma. It is only getting worse.

So between the idiot box, media, newspapers, governments, GMO foods, vaccines, what they are putting in the water including fluoride, food additives, preservatives, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, chem trails, radio wave emissions, harp technology, vaccines, micro-waves from cell phones, computers, towers and every form of surrounding technology not to mention the technologies that we have no idea about that they are implementing as well - they have created the perfect slave world. Not to mention the economic/banking/entire economic infrastructure system that doesn't actually exist and has crashed. We are living now in the domino effect.

Plus every other toxin that is practically in every single thing we consume, touch, use for cleaning and then some. The enemy has snared the planet in such a way that people are becoming like the walking 'dead' or 'automatons'.

Add a long work week that keeps you constantly exhausted and broke anyways so that you have to keep focusing on more ways to make money to keep the hamster in the hamster wheel, add liquor, cigarettes, drugs, prostitution and every other form of corruption, addiction and a plethora of diversions to keep you entrenched in your own personal lobotomy and you have a system of slaves that require minimal surveillance other than the spy technology in place right now.

It appears that we are at the stage where complete totalitarian take over will be a walk in the park for them with virtually little resistance.

Originally posted by Egyptia

Originally posted by DeadSeraph


Is it possible that the complacency and apathy we see in the average citizen over such issues is in fact a result of some of the indoctrination we've been through? Are they putting something in the water to pacify people? I just don't understand why people don't care?

It's like we are all sitting in the same car stalled on the train tracks, and we can see the train coming clear as day but we are all too lazy to just get out of the car...

I'm just baffled

Hey DeadSeraph, good thread and yes I'd have to more than agree with you that people are uncharacteristically apathetic and numb. So much so that it seems like the world at large are indeed brainwashed with the exception of the small percentage. Right now the world should be up in arms over the 'slow kill' policy taking place. Yet its the same old same old trying to get a rise out of people is equivalent to trying to wake someone out of a coma. It is only getting worse.

So between the idiot box, media, newspapers, GMO foods, vaccines, what they are putting in the water including fluoride, food additives, preservatives, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, chem trails, radio wave emissions, harp technology, vaccines, micro-waves from cell phones, computers, towers and every form of surrounding technology not to mention the technologies that we have no idea about that they are implementing as well - they have created the perfect slave world. Plus every other toxin that is practically in every single thing we consume, touch, use for cleaning and then some.

Add a long work week that keeps you constantly exhausted and broke anyways so that you have to keep focusing on more ways to make money to keep the hamster in the hamster wheel, add liquor, cigarettes, drugs, prostitution and every other form of corruption, addiction and a plethora of diversions to keep you entrenched in your own personal lobotomy and you have a system of slaves that require minimal surveillance other than the spy technology in place right now.

It appears that we are at the stage where complete totalitarian take over will be a walk in the park for them with virtually little resistance.

Do you ever worry about being wrong? The way you write seems to imply you truly believe everything you have just said. But what If, there is the tiny little possibility that you are wrong, what then? Because after reading some peoples posts on this thread, it is almost like they WANT all this to be true. My guess is it would be like a christian being told god doesnt exist. Fingers in ears because the alternative will leave you lost.

reply to post by Briles1207


It would be great if I was wrong but the sad thing is that the evidence is all around you. The only way I could be wrong is if I lived in a bubble and thought that the world was the opposite. It is evident that everything is coming undone and to a culmination as is recorded in The Bible and that there is a purposeful UN-doing happening as well by those that created this version of our world in the current power structure.

reply to post by Briles1207

in North Carolina, it is illegal for dogs and cats to fight

So you support dog/cat fighting?

a bartender in Nebraska cannot sell beer unless he is simultaneously brewing a kettle of soup

It is a fact that food consumption before and during the intake of alcohol slows the absorption of alcohol into the bloodstream.
You support public drunkenness?

in Alabama it is illegal to wear a fake mustache that causes laughter during church services

I could see where it might be advantageous to maintain decorum during religious services. Like at a funeral.
Do you support the Westboro Baptists? They like to disrupt funerals.

in Massachusetts it is illegal to put tomatoes in clam chowder

Seriously, have you ever eaten Manhattan Clam Chowder? It is a travesty.

reply to post by butcherguy


Haha nice ;-)

You should be a politician.

The moment your born your given a name and a number...and your put in the system. To be absolutely honest, im not even comfortable with that much. ...Im was never happy about mercury fillings or fluoride in water or inoculations spiked with mercury, chemicals in food...but all those things are already done to you without your knowledge or permission when your an innocent kid. So your basically in it up to your neck before you even realize it..the quicksand civilization I mean and the loss of personal freedom.

I'm not comfortable with the reality that in order to travel to other countries you need paperwork and passports..worse retina scans and fingerprinting and worse still body scans and pat downs. But if you don't comply you cant travel...

I not happy about extortionate price fixing in utility bills, price fixing in supermarket collusion. im not happy that people are driven by unhealthy self interest, self interest that separates and fractionalizes any kind of society or community cohesion..I was never happy with the two party political system, that pretends to give people a choice. i was never happy at how dumb people are and how much dumber they are getting by the week.

Ive not been happy with all these things for at least 20 years...and every years there is more to be p155ed off about..Yet there is no community or cohesive society..Everyone is an "individual" making their own supposedly individual life choices and life styles...We are all so very important and the God's of our own destinies...My 455 we are. The reality is everyone is deluded, living in delusion. Everyone thinks they are separate but almost everyone follows the same patterns...Their alleged striving to be individuals, leads down the same road and all roads lead to Rome.

The society of all these supposedly free thinking minds should be the most difficult society to police and control but instead its the easiest to control..funny that. Well not so funny or strange at all when you think about it. Like I said the pursuit of individualism leads to living for yourself..living for yourself means your separate from others...and when your separate, your isolated. And that's what we have, a society with millions of people but all living separate lives...Even the family has been eroded and destroyed for the most part. Has all this been done by some design? Yes in my opinion. Give the people what they desire and then use that desire to exploit them and divide them. Even look at how people search for friends and potential mates these days..There has to be a check list..of what music you like, films you like, what opinions you have ...and so on and on..The irony is most people seem to have one thing in common..they all think they are special and different. Its quite pathetic really and it has lead to a culture where you dont know your neighbor and dont want to know them...unless they fit your narrow criteria of a worthwhile person. In a society like that, the ones pulling the strings have no opposition...at least no credible opposition...just small militias or student protests which in reality is simply a bunch of people who want a day out and a bit of fun...all sharing their chosen special lifestyle choice, that of the political demonstrator and vegan..usually.

When you see it like this, you understand why there is no huge public backlash..its because there is not cohesive society...its just people, who have been indoctrinated to chase self interests.

Originally posted by Bluesma
No, my EXACT words were "public insults" not personal- and it was said within a humorous joke, with a smiley to make it clear that it was lighthearted ribbing. You tried, failed, and lets move on. I'm perfectly rational and we can continue the debate on rational terms.

So i got one word wrong on the second post about the subject.....sue me..

point is, if i didn't see it as satirical, sarcastic, or tongue-in-cheek, then how many others saw it the same way?

The only one here who tried anything was you, when you tried to pull the gender card, and appeal to emotion by making it appear as if people are ganging up on you because you're a woman...i didn't even know you were a woman until you said something...and i could give a fig less...women are not the only irrational people on the planet...

Originally posted by Bluesma

Once again, I UNDERSTAND that is how you feel- got it.

And once again- I personally don't feel the same for myself. I am not concerned about protecting my own privacy to the same extent you are.

That isn't hard to understand, I do not believe you do not understand me, I think you just don't want to accept that someone else has a different opinion than yourself, and want that to change. The whole "bewilderment" issue here is BS. There is such a thing as wilfull refusal to comprehend someone or something, and that is what seems to be the case here.

"to the same extent"? there is no extent...privacy is privacy....it's a one-flavor cone..either you have it, or you don't..

If you don't value your privacy, and you feel it completely ok for whomever, whenever, to watch whatever they want in your life, then i really do pity you. you've lost any semblance of reason, and sense of sovereign identity...i guess enjoy being a slave -shrug-

it's nothing to do with willful refusal to comprehend other opinions, it's to do with rational, logical thought....i comprehend your view and opinion, and i think you're a complete mentalist....it's kinda like watching a line of people walk into a wood chipper, and trying to convince them it's not a good thing to be doing, only to have them tell you "oh, well, that's just your opinion, you're just not cool enough, or smart enough to understand why we walk into the wood chipper"...it's bloody madness...

You are mentally unstable to a spectacular degree..

Originally posted by Briles1207
this will only affect you if you LET IT.

That's like saying being robbed will only affect you if you let it...

Until there is proof that the government has used this information for sinister reasons, I will not see it as a threat to my personal existence.

you're just not understanding it.....of course, i'd expect as much from someone who lives in a surveillance state, where there are cameras absolutely bloody EVERYWHERE....

Do you reckon you'd be alright with cameras in the loo as well?

IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER. if the information is being used for sinister purposes, or to work out if they should send someone to give you a hug...here, in these United States of America, the law says they have no business doing this, no right, no authority.

If you want to jump around and shout "Theyre looking at what im doing and I dont like it because what im doing is of such importance that the government could jail me for years, thats up to you.

Believe me, 99% of what the population get upto is of absolutely no interest to the government and alot of the data they collect is worthless. You just arent that interesting.

ok then...if the information is worthless, and we're not that interesting, then what is the point in collecting said data in the first place? why violate people's privacy without reasonable and just cause?

What are they going to do with a text saying "Hey babe, thanks for last night, was great to see you"?

Absolutely nothing....and that will most likely always be true. which again, begs the question: "if the information is useless, what is the point in having it?" things like that are private, and none of the federal government's business..

I know what you will say.

"It doesnt matter what information they have or whether im doing anything wrong, THEY SHOULDNT BE DOING IT"

Well im sorry but that is being outraged for the sake of being outraged

no, it isn't....good god, man....do you actually read what you type?

it's not outrage for the sake of outrage, it's logical, reasonable, sane thinking....

i put forth the question again, to both you, and bluesma.....

if you found out that for the last 5 years, i'd been tapping into the webcam of your computer, and watching you have sex, or whatever, would you not be furious?...furthermore, would you not be furious if you found that during that same time, i also had a camera in your shower head?

or, do you believe it would be completely OK, for me to fly to your country, come to your home, follow you around all day, every day, listen to your conversations, read everything you read, watch everything you eat, stand over your shoulder and watch everything you do...no detail being missed...and then make detailed notes about all of it, and be able to recite it from memory to anyone who wants to know? does that seem like something that's alright to you?

You can continue believing that this is a sinister plot to control the massess, thats your perogative.

it may be, it may not be, but the fact remains that it IS a violation of our basic human right to privacy, and it IS illegal, and it IS morally reprehensible..

But dont drag people who dont care onto your soapbox by suggesting people who arent bothered are somehow idiots.

I hate to be crass, or insulting, and i understand that the T&C says that personal insults are not allowed, and i would hope the mods grant me a little latitude this one time, so i can make my point....but if you don't believe human beings have, as one of the most basic of rights, a right to privacy, then you kind of ARE an idiot..

Originally posted by TheBlackHat

Originally posted by Daedalus


show me the contract for the internet that says i legally waive my constitutional right to privacy.

as to opting out of internet usage...you first. i could do with a few less ignorant posts to reply to.

Oooh sorry...but when you state you could do with a few less ignorant posts to reply to..I didn't ask you to engage in a flame war with me. The point is this...people have either been fully aware or at least had strong suspicions about all this internet spying for years..probably including yourself. The fact you and everyone else continued to use the internet makes my point, if you really, REALLY cared about privacy you wouldn't use it.

And your calling me ignorant..well perhaps i am..but maybe your like millions of other who supposedly just had a bucket of cold reality poured over their heads and are currently in shock about all this? the rest of us are not one bit shocked because it was bl00dy obvious all along. And for the record I was never happy about it but I know the risk Im taking with my privacy whilst im online...that's why I never joined Facebook for one thing..HOW ABOUT YOU THOUGH???

Also, if it's not just the USA gov AKA Big Brother that can track you online...everyone can track everyone else online. Do you think its healthy and a move forward that you can drop a photograph from one place in the internet into Google image search and find matches, that will eventually lead you to the identity of that person??? Do you think it's a good thing you have sites like 4square that logs every place you go, due to your phone..dating websites like POF where people think they are keeping their identity "safe" simply because they dont use their real names..but rather use their real faces......These are just a couple of examples of how the online world is a minefield of intrusion and spying..And all the "smart" phones, owned by the dummest people, they can be tracked everywhere, as we all know full well...And if someone is a good hacker supposedly they can access all your hard drive and even turn on your web cam...We already knew all this yet we used the internet...Including you. to think Big Brother didn't exist in all that was ridiculous.

How many sites state that's your ip address is being recorded or that you getting cookies on your computer...I mean its everywhere you go online..this tracking..I dont like it..I never did...but you make a deal with the devil using the internet..And cell phones, we know they probably cause brain tumors, yet we cant stop using them...we know driving is a million times more dangerous than flying yet we still drive..we also know it causes pollution and oil wars, yet we still drive..many people drive one person to an SUV, that's how much people really give a 5h17...We dont as a collective species, because we are full of 5h17 and selfishness...and TPTB know that and encouraged it within us through the TV...Now we are sitting ducks...Your just acting like all this is a huge surprise to you...you couldn't possible be that dumb.

not looking for a flame war...i'm just annoyed by people who say privacy is not important, and shouldn't be expected, in any amount....

i don't have a facebook account.... i think social media is stupid, but more importantly, i knew all about how facebook came to be YEARS ago...it is a CIA/NSA datamining operation disguised as a fun internet hangout. the IAO was "officially defunded" by Congress in 2003. However, several IAO projects continued to be funded, and merely run under different names....i'm pretty sure the IAO is not shut down, it's just operating on the black budget now....when you become a black project, there is no longer ANY accountability OR oversight.....

i've known verizon was working with the NSA, and allowed them to install intercept stations all along the backbone...i've known about this for 15 years...and i've known that companies like google, yahoo, AOL, and others were providing information to the federal government....i've known that ISPs were caught giving this information away....none of this is any surprise, and i'm not acting like any of it is a surprise....i'm not sure where you're getting that idea from...

if you're smart, there are ways to remain virtually untraceable...i'm not going to go into them here, but they exist...you just gotta know how to find them..

reply to post by Daedalus


I apologize if I misunderstood the tone of your previous post...anyhow. Im in agreement with you and I too am pi55ed off that there is no privacy. I am pi55ed off that not only is there CCTV everywhere but I come from the UK so its been in my life since the 1980's, so you get used to it...but I am even more p155ed off that everyone has a mobile device that has a video camera on it, and that unsuspecting people can be recorded without knowing it and then have that image or conversation plastered all over the internet without any knowledge or permission. I can only guess at how many sex tapes are uploaded every day without permission of the other parties involved...yet Ive never heard any real public concerns over this blatantly obvious stuff.

I mean its not just Big Brother its the Stazi, except the Stazi isn't hired or secret, its everyone, everywhere all the time. The technology has leap frogged our ability to use it responsibly. The internet was basically what I always knew it was..Pandoras Box.

Originally posted by Briles1207
I am more angry that the OP is stating that people who arent bothered by this as it is not affecting their lives, are somehow moronic.

The truth can be uncomfortable sometimes. Yes, It's not effecting you personally right now. We get it. That's not the point.

Originally posted by Daedalus

So i got one word wrong on the second post about the subject.....sue me..

point is, if i didn't see it as satirical, sarcastic, or tongue-in-cheek, then how many others saw it the same way?

The only one here who tried anything was you, when you tried to pull the gender card, and appeal to emotion by making it appear as if people are ganging up on you because you're a woman...i didn't even know you were a woman until you said something...and i could give a fig less...women are not the only irrational people on the planet...

You just can't drop it, can you? I made no claim of victimization (I do not believe in victimization), both you and the other poster tried to turn this into a personal slant and it didn't work- let's stay on topic.

"to the same extent"? there is no extent...privacy is privacy....it's a one-flavor cone..either you have it, or you don't..

No, I disagree. Having someone know I went out to a restaurant for pizza is one level, having them know I called my husband on the phone is another, having them know exactly what I said is another, having them know I made love with him in our bedroom afterward is another, having them know what positions we did and how many orgasms I had is another...
I definately feel there differing levels of privacy, and some I feel more defensive of than others, and relative to who we're talking about (I feel less defensive about my doctor seeing me naked than my co-worker, for example)

If you don't value your privacy, and you feel it completely ok for whomever, whenever, to watch whatever they want in your life, then i really do pity you. you've lost any semblance of reason, and sense of sovereign identity...i guess enjoy being a slave -shrug-

That is not how I feel, though it may be a very fun and easy simplistic way to imagine a person who does not agree with you- it allows you to totally ignore any validity or rationale to their point of view.
But obviously you know it isn't true, because in our discussion with each other, I described how I am more concerned about the invasion of privacy threat from other people that are NOT the CIA- so obviously the "whomever, whenever, whatever.." is meaningless.

it's nothing to do with willful refusal to comprehend other opinions, it's to do with rational, logical thought....i

Obviously not, as I illustrated above. Your comments are not logical, given the available information.
You can claim to not understand my opinion here.... but that would be due to your ignoring certain parts of the information and explanation that have been given. I think that ignorance (of what is still up and written, for anyone to see) was deliberate on your part, because those parts of what I said did not contribute to the false image you desired to project of who I am, what I feel and think.

..it's kinda like watching a line of people walk into a wood chipper, and trying to convince them it's not a good thing to be doing, only to have them tell you "oh, well, that's just your opinion, you're just not cool enough, or smart enough to understand why we walk into the wood chipper"...it's bloody madness...

1- I'm walking into the danger? Okay, I respect your right to your opinion.
Let me point out, however, that I felt that country was threatening long long ago, as a child when hippy parents told me never to trust it, and I noted that my school was teaching me to say the pledge of alligence, and also that nationalism is a cause of war. That gave me a hint that we were being screwed with.
I left.
You're still there.
Who's walking into the woodchipper.....???

2- I never said anything about cool or smart- I am sorry if you feel intimidated that way, it was not my intent and I did what I could to remain respectful despite your attempts to turn this into an exchange of personal slurs.

3- As I have tried to point out, for some people in the world, they have immediate survival concerns they cannot afford to turn their attention from. There are many, many causes that people will insist are essential- like saving whales, the ocean, Chemtrails, nuclear waste...... they may be real threats to our future. And yet, tell that to the person who has a child that will die in the next week if they can't scratch up some food- NOW.
If you are one of the comfortable wealthy ones that can afford to look deeper into future and focus on that, do it!

But why waste time calling others who are dealing with other more immediate things "morons"? Or twisting their words and meanings to paint them as inferior to yourself? Not once did I say your concern is stupid or moronic or not true, I simply said I have other concerns I choose to focus on.

Originally posted by Briles1207

I wouldnt say "UKers" have a lack of respect for individuality and persons rights & Freedoms.

OK. Upon further consideration, you have a point. I wouldn't necessarily say such a think about ALL UKers because that's the same thing as any other kind of blanket statement about an entire group of people.

What I really meant to say (And was just too lazy to type it ll out) was that IN GENERAL, UKers seem to have that basic tendency to me. I have been discussing all sorts of things with people from just about everywhere since 1999. Out of all of them, UKers and Australians seem to be the ones who care least about freedom and have nothing but contempt for individuality. And they are usually quite aggressive about the way they express it.

We are the most watched country in europe, with the Most CCTV. Yet, I can protest where and when I like, I can express my opinion without fear of reprisal. I can go wherever I like with my family, and travel the length and breadth of the country unhindered.

And where are your assurances that this will always be the case? Just because it is clear and sunny today means it will never rain? Sunny skies are a sure sign of a lifetime of smooth sailing? Are you really that naive?

I would say Americans have a self righteous nature which they think entitles them to throw their toys out of the pram anytime somebody suggests something which infringes on a piece of paper that has no modern relevance.

You may not believe the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution has any modern relevance but that's because you're just plain ignorant. Your disdain for people's rights and their privacy and individuality is so obvious I don't know why you bother to deny it.

The constitution is out of date. You are bound to it. Thats is the opposite of being free. You will never evolve as a nation unless you can see past that.

Evolve to what? If you think privacy is obsolete, I'd hate to know what you think is the next step in our evolution.

The constitution was written at a time when it was relevant.

Here is where you have a reasonably good point. At that time, people actually understood that government has to have some limits that cannot be changed. People don't get that anymore. Most Americans (and UKers, for that matter) have no real concept of the enormity of the full implications of today's technology in a totalitarian type of environment.

If you don't have those limits and you allow government to cross those lines just once, you might as well trash the whole idea of limitations. Why? Because precedent breeds repetition. It is inevitable.

Did you know:

in North Carolina, it is illegal for dogs and cats to fight

in Massachusetts it is illegal to put tomatoes in clam chowder

a bartender in Nebraska cannot sell beer unless he is simultaneously brewing a kettle of soup

in Alabama it is illegal to wear a fake mustache that causes laughter during church services

No modern relevance.

Did you know that most of these laws were bad laws when they were written? The 4th Amendment (and most of the others) were based on the Magna Carta. The fundamental principles of Magna Carta were not even outdated when the US Constitution was written. It is still relevant today. The right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure never becomes obsolete in a right thinking person's mind.

In the UK it is still illegal (on a bit of paperatleast) to shake a mat outside of your front door. It was originally because it would scare the horses pulling carriages.

I bet it's also illegal to break into people's houses while they're at work and go through their belongings. Do you really believe the Fourth Amendment is comparable to laws about tomatoes and shaking mats and scaring horses?

I am not saying dont have a constitution or rules to abide by, but come on guys, get with the programme!

Which "program" would that be?

If you've done nothing wrong
You've got nothing to fear
If you've something to hide
You shouldn't even be here

PET SHOP BOYS

Originally posted by Briles1207
My point is that this will only affect you if you LET IT.

How do you know that? How can you possibly know what they intend to do with all the information they're collecting (and undoubtedly storing)? How could you possibly know it will never affect you, me or anyone?

A government that can afford to build a fleet of aircraft carriers can certainly afford however many hard drives they need to store your entire life digitally. It's not even like they have to go far out of their way. They spend this kind of money every day. From there, it's just a matter of delegating and procedure.

Until there is proof that the government has used this information for sinister reasons, I will not see it as a threat to my personal existence.

I don't need proof. The very fact that they're doing this at all is sinister. I don't need proof of anything if I come home one fine day and find a stranger in my house going through my stuff. He's not supposed to be there to start with! Things got sinister the instant I saw him.

If you want to jump around and shout "Theyre looking at what im doing and I dont like it because what im doing is of such importance that the government could jail me for years, thats up to you.

No. I think you need to take a break and put your thinking cap on. Ask yourself what kind of information can be gleaned from, for example, something as seemingly mundane as your everyday internet browsing habits. If you just look at it as a bunch of random data, it might not seem like a big deal.

But when you think about it, your internet activity actually draws a pretty clear picture of who you are, what you think, how you think. Most people reveal details about themselves online they wouldn't tell anyone in real life. For example, I know quite a few closeted gays who only "come out" when they're online and they believe they have a modicum of anonymity.

People generally reveal their real personalities online. Someone who might seem nice and polite and cool in real life can be a real jerk on the internet. Or maybe they just have bad days and they like to vent.

Whatever. At the end of the day, all they have to do is find a way to store all this data indefinitely. The technology (if it doesn't already exist) undoubtedly will be created to enable them to create detailed dossiers on every citizen.

Now understand this. Because I'm tired of hearing this mindless "If you aren't doing anything wrong..." argument. It does not matter if you aren't technically doing anything wrong. Governments love to play god. It's what they do best. Give them the room to expand and that's just what they'll do. Let your imagination run wild with the possibilities.

Let's say the government decides it would be a brilliant idea to use this (and future) technology to do the whole Minority Report "Precrime" thing. In such a world, it does not matter if you're doing anything wrong. What matters is the statistical probability that you MIGHT do something wrong. Now this is obviously highly unethical but we already know these people ignore ethics when they believe they can justify it.

Try to imagine, just for a moment, what your entire last 10 years of internet activity might say about you in a psychological profile created by a machine with AI. Everything you've ever said online. Every link. Every video. Every picture. Every email. Every post on every message board. Every flippant comment on every web site. Everything you've ever read online. All your purchases. What you eat. Whether or not you like to exercise and stay in shape. Your sexual proclivities. Whether you tend to be docile or aggressive. How well you respond to psychological conditioning. GPS enabled smartphones could allow them to track your every move. And phones certainly will not be the last devices to get "smart" with GPS, voice recognition and so forth.

And that is really just scratching the surface. It all sounds really paranoid but it actually isn't.

Believe me, 99% of what the population get upto is of absolutely no interest to the government and alot of the data they collect is worthless. You just arent that interesting.

Somehow, I find that argument rather unconvincing.

What are they going to do with a text saying "Hey babe, thanks for last night, was great to see you"?

Stick it in the database. If nothing else, it tells them exactly what you were doing at precisely that date and time.

"It doesnt matter what information they have or whether im doing anything wrong, THEY SHOULDNT BE DOING IT"

Well im sorry but that is being outraged for the sake of being outraged.

No. You seem to be arguing against common sense just to be arguing.

But dont drag people who dont care onto your soapbox by suggesting people who arent bothered are somehow idiots.

Well, if the shoe fits..

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
I apologize if I misunderstood the tone of your previous post...anyhow. Im in agreement with you and I too am pi55ed off that there is no privacy. I am pi55ed off that not only is there CCTV everywhere but I come from the UK so its been in my life since the 1980's, so you get used to it...but I am even more p155ed off that everyone has a mobile device that has a video camera on it, and that unsuspecting people can be recorded without knowing it and then have that image or conversation plastered all over the internet without any knowledge or permission.

The public surveillance cameras (while disturbing) are not as egregious as tapping phones and spying on internet activity, IMHO. I mean, yeah. It's all creepy as hell. Especially when you look at the sheer numbers of cameras.

As far as the cell phone cameras, I'm not so concerned with that. I don't really have any reasonable expectation of privacy in a shopping mall. If a person can look at me, they can take a picture. I'm not going to be happy about it but I'm expecting to be seen when I'm in public.

The technology has leap frogged our ability to use it responsibly. The internet was basically what I always knew it was..Pandoras Box.

Yeah. I have to admit I pretty much predicted where the internet was going to take us the first time I heard about it. I mean, obviously there have been surprises along the way but you don't have to know exactly HOW something will happen to know it WILL happen.

I have actually toyed with the notion in my mind that maybe TPTB WANT to destroy the internet (as we know it). If you think about it, the entertainment industry has been decimated by the internet. An internet connection is a complete broadcasting station to say basically anything you could ever want to say. The MSM becomes more and more irrelevant as people start to ask big questions and stop trusting them.

They would certainly prefer a much more restrictive online environment. Maybe they want to make us turn away from freedom.