It shouldn't matter if you aren't doing anything wrong

reply to post by Bluesma


I never implied in any way that the world doesn't have other problems. It has a lot of other problems. I guess that's reason enough for you to stick your head in the sand, though.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph
reply to post by Bluesma

 

I never implied in any way that the world doesn't have other problems. It has a lot of other problems. I guess that's reason enough for you to stick your head in the sand, though.

The problem with the "stick your head in the sand" comment is that I could say the same to you.
While you are fretting and typing away about the CIA, perhaps there is a person on your block that desperately needs help, right now. There are all kinds of things going on close to you that need attention right this moment.
Instead, you concern yourself with other things, ignoring them.

But I don't want to say that. I want to acknowledge that other people around you ARE attending to them while you concern yourself elsewhere, so it is okay that you do so. I only speak on the part of those other people, to help you with your bewilderment at how or why they could actually not be focused on the same thing you are.

Now I am off to work, where there are sick and dying people right now. I leave you to your own calling of duty and service here. Have a great day! (or night, whatever it is for you)

Originally posted by Daedalus


there's a HUGE difference between the town busybody being the town busybody, and the federal government keeping tabs on the citizenry for an as yet unknown purpose....

one is harmless, the other is unmistakably sinister, and dangerous (potentially destructive) to the general welfare of the public...

I think it's giving them too much benefit of the doubt to say we don't know why they're doing it. All we have to do is look at history. When governments do this sort of thing, it's pretty much always the same reason. More power and more control. And since our government is already practically omnipotent, we can only assume this is a really, really bad sign.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
I agree...the ones in charge are "reasonably" clever, but id not say they were brilliant strategists...mostly they look clever because the population is incredibly facile and stupid...but they had to dumb everyone down for a couple decades first..I mean have you witnessed the degeneration of TV, especially over the last 20 years...year on year it gets worse...Look at the discovery channel for a good example..it used to be about science but then it became all about some guys who argue about building ridiculous looking choppers. That's where the apathy comes from

Well, that's what I mean. It's brilliant because it fools so many people. And I agree. It's the damn TV. The vast majority of what goes on culturally in America comes from TV, comic books, Music and books. They have very skillfully hidden all that propaganda and subtext in American entertainment for decades. Acclimation and incrementalism is all it takes. They're simple concepts but explaining to people how they are being manipulated in this way can be a complicated thing. If for no other reason than it's inherently insulting to tell someone they are too thick to comprehend what's happening to them on a daily basis.

I'm sure I've put thousands of people to sleep preaching about the concept of incrementalism. If you could just get people to understand this simple idea and why it's so insidious, you'd be halfway there. But people don't want to understand. They want to deny. There are many reasons but the end result is always the same. You might as well be talking to a wall.

its called a "POLICE STATE"

While you won't get much argument from me on the basic accuracy of this statement, I think maybe it's simply not an effective term to use with the blockheads. When you say something like "It's a police state" people instantly snap to mental images of soldiers in jackboots marching in the streets, people being "disappeared", the Holocaust and other such things. When you sound the alarm and these things don't happen, people just go back to sleep. And eventually, it doesn't even cause them to stir at all. They'll just call you a stupid name and laugh or make some kind of contrived joke about it.

One of the reasons why TPTB are so successful is that they continue to innovate. They take old ideas and they repackage them so people don't recognize them. People expect to see Hitler or Stalin when you say "Police State" or "totalitarianism" or even "Big Brother". It never occurs to them that the next Stalin might not look like the next Stalin. They continually learn from the mistakes of the dictatorships of the past. They learn how to keep people calm and sleeping. They learn how to play the heroes. They learn how to use things like TV to brainwash/indoctrinate people and lull them into a false sense of security.

When they want to show people how their spying can prevent crime/terrorism, they do it on TV. They normalize it. You see it everywhere on TV and when it comes up in real life, hardly anyone even blinks.

reply to post by BrianFlanders

Yes Im in full agreement...but the term "police state" should be used more now, because if people dont get it now, finally, then they really have lost the plot...but as i already said lots of the so called sheeple deserve what they have got. As far as slowly indoctrinating the public to this brave new world..All you need to recognize is that everyone has a propaganda box in their living room, at least in the western world and large parts of the third world too...so the only ones who escape the all out brain wash are probably people who cant afford a TV anyhow...Lucky for them.
.

Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

LOL! "Put your emotions aside..."

Yeah, I'M the one upset.

I'm not concerned. I have a life that is not of interest to the government. I have watched your video. I remain in the same state of non-concern.

I actually get more concerned about uncle Joe (or in my case, Jean-Michel, more likely..) Because one rumor of having said a comment that is not acceptable in this community can mean I will no longer get my mail, cannot buy bread, will be refused gasoline or fuel for heating, and suddenly cannot have an appointment to have my hair cut or my car fixed, or even a job. My neighbor had something of that sort happen, the community was able to make him sell his home and leave with his family.

But even that, I recognize is not the end of the world if it happens. And in the big picture, even the Nazi reign came to an end one day. I do not object to others feeling the personal drive to influence events of this sort in their own lifetime- if you feel it go for it. I only stand up for my right to focus my concern on more immediate and close to home things- like the homeless or sick person next to me, right now.

This world needs many different points of view and activity, and even if you feel you have a big mission to change the political world, you can recognize that there are ALSO other concerns that others need to focus on instead at the same time, no?

Or I guess not. That is what the OP was all about, wasn't it? An inability to understand how a person can actually spend more energy and concern on daily care of problems close to them instead of researching and posting about the CIA on internet? I guess it will remain a mystery for some, an it is not I that make you comprehend.

Once again, you have COMPLETELY missed the point....

it doesn't MATTER if your life is of no concern to the government....they still have no business watching it.

why can't you understand that?

reply to post by Bluesma


the way you phrased your reply, made it sound as if you thought the thread was directed at you...you did claim it was personal insults, and overt provocation..those are your exact words...

as to you being a woman....that had nothing to do with it, in fact, i don't know the gender of most of the people on here, you included, prior to this post. gender is irrelevant. facts, ideas, and words are all that matter here..i could give a fig less about gender...nice try though.

Originally posted by BrianFlanders

Originally posted by Daedalus


there's a HUGE difference between the town busybody being the town busybody, and the federal government keeping tabs on the citizenry for an as yet unknown purpose....

one is harmless, the other is unmistakably sinister, and dangerous (potentially destructive) to the general welfare of the public...

I think it's giving them too much benefit of the doubt to say we don't know why they're doing it. All we have to do is look at history. When governments do this sort of thing, it's pretty much always the same reason. More power and more control. And since our government is already practically omnipotent, we can only assume this is a really, really bad sign.

that's the thing.....you gotta take baby steps....i know why they're doing it, you know why they're doing it, a lot of us know why they're doing it....but until it's all over the news, the rest of the country isn't going to believe it..

we said the government was spying on us, and that major companies were helping them...we were promptly called nuts.

now it's all over the news, and suddenly, we're not so nuts anymore....

well, until they report what we know to be true about the motivations behind this program that everyone now knows about, we'll still be called nuts for talking about it..

Originally posted by Daedalus
that's the thing.....you gotta take baby steps....i know why they're doing it, you know why they're doing it, a lot of us know why they're doing it....but until it's all over the news, the rest of the country isn't going to believe it..

we said the government was spying on us, and that major companies were helping them...we were promptly called nuts.

now it's all over the news, and suddenly, we're not so nuts anymore....

well, until they report what we know to be true about the motivations behind this program that everyone now knows about, we'll still be called nuts for talking about it..

Well, as I always say, they cannot maintain an overt police state without the consent of the public. So that means they will either have to coerce society into cooperating or they will have to keep people asleep. Which is where I believe the "mental health" agenda comes in. Mass coercion is messy and inefficient so it would be far preferable for them to keep people asleep as much as possible.

Obama has already just came right out and said it. Untreated mental illness can lead to things like Sandy Hook. That's where he's starting to clear a path towards compulsory "treatment" for anyone who is deemed to be "mentally ill". He also pointed out in the same speech that the vast majority of the mentally ill are not violent but you can rest assured that he will soon make a plausible excuse for "treating" them all. You just can't take chances, ya know?

And people don't believe this will happen. They seem to have forgotten that this is the same guy that's forcing people to buy insurance. This is the same guy that signed a 3,000 page bill that was rammed through without most people even reading it before they voted on it. I'm sure Obama himself didn't bother to read it. Not that it would have made any difference.

Give this government a perfect tool of oppression (psychiatry) and make a plausible excuse for it (Mental illness and precrime) and see if they don't use it. This has to be where they are going. It's starting to make more sense. Look at the shooters. They all look like complete lunatics. And frankly, even if you look at 9/11, you can chalk it up to mental illness.

Even if you believe 9/11 was staged, just set that aside for a moment. Ask yourself how you would feel about it if you believed the official story. What else besides mental illness could compel people to do something like that?

Religion is also involved, I think. They will eventually get around to calling religion a delusion. Which, of course, will require intensive "treatment". (I am not religious by the way but I absolutely believe in religious freedom). And why? Because religion is another obstacle to complete and utter control by the government.

Originally posted by BrianFlanders

Originally posted by Daedalus
that's the thing.....you gotta take baby steps....i know why they're doing it, you know why they're doing it, a lot of us know why they're doing it....but until it's all over the news, the rest of the country isn't going to believe it..

we said the government was spying on us, and that major companies were helping them...we were promptly called nuts.

now it's all over the news, and suddenly, we're not so nuts anymore....

well, until they report what we know to be true about the motivations behind this program that everyone now knows about, we'll still be called nuts for talking about it..

Well, as I always say, they cannot maintain an overt police state without the consent of the public. So that means they will either have to coerce society into cooperating or they will have to keep people asleep. Which is where I believe the "mental health" agenda comes in. Mass coercion is messy and inefficient so it would be far preferable for them to keep people asleep as much as possible.

Obama has already just came right out and said it. Untreated mental illness can lead to things like Sandy Hook. That's where he's starting to clear a path towards compulsory "treatment" for anyone who is deemed to be "mentally ill". He also pointed out in the same speech that the vast majority of the mentally ill are not violent but you can rest assured that he will soon make a plausible excuse for "treating" them all. You just can't take chances, ya know?

And people don't believe this will happen. They seem to have forgotten that this is the same guy that's forcing people to buy insurance. This is the same guy that signed a 3,000 page bill that was rammed through without most people even reading it before they voted on it. I'm sure Obama himself didn't bother to read it. Not that it would have made any difference.

Give this government a perfect tool of oppression (psychiatry) and make a plausible excuse for it (Mental illness and precrime) and see if they don't use it. This has to be where they are going. It's starting to make more sense. Look at the shooters. They all look like complete lunatics. And frankly, even if you look at 9/11, you can chalk it up to mental illness.

Even if you believe 9/11 was staged, just set that aside for a moment. Ask yourself how you would feel about it if you believed the official story. What else besides mental illness could compel people to do something like that?

Religion is also involved, I think. They will eventually get around to calling religion a delusion. Which, of course, will require intensive "treatment". (I am not religious by the way but I absolutely believe in religious freedom). And why? Because religion is another obstacle to complete and utter control by the government.

edit on 10-6-2013 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

problem with that course of action, is that the more people you put on psychiatric drugs, the more potential homicidal maniacs you're gonna have...more often than not, it's the drugs that make these people do these things...

religion is a form of mental illness, i believe....i mean, people do horrible things in the name of their invisible friend of choice..it's kinda sick. religion has brought more pain, and suffering, and death, and division, and hatred upon the human race, than a thousand, or even a million 9/11s......yet nobody talks about that...

so they'll label everyone mildly crazy, use that to take away the guns, and then violent crime will go up because people on drugs will flip out, and we'll end up seeing a lot more stabbings and beatings...this ain't the kind of change the obama-bots imagined when they went out there and shilled for him.

honestly though, it's not all about obama...we haven't had an honest president in a long time...they've just been getting incrementally worse..and with every administration, the american people decide to steadily increase the amount they're willing to put up with.....lol, talk about waking up one day homeless on the streets of the nation our fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers built...

Originally posted by Daedalus
reply to post by Bluesma

 

the way you phrased your reply, made it sound as if you thought the thread was directed at you...you did claim it was personal insults, and overt provocation..those are your exact words...

No, my EXACT words were "public insults" not personal- and it was said within a humorous joke, with a smiley to make it clear that it was lighthearted ribbing. You tried, failed, and lets move on. I'm perfectly rational and we can continue the debate on rational terms.

Originally posted by Daedalus


Once again, you have COMPLETELY missed the point....

it doesn't MATTER if your life is of no concern to the government....they still have no business watching it.

why can't you understand that?

Once again, I UNDERSTAND that is how you feel- got it.

And once again- I personally don't feel the same for myself. I am not concerned about protecting my own privacy to the same extent you are.

That isn't hard to understand, I do not believe you do not understand me, I think you just don't want to accept that someone else has a different opinion than yourself, and want that to change. The whole "bewilderment" issue here is BS. There is such a thing as wilfull refusal to comprehend someone or something, and that is what seems to be the case here.

Originally posted by Daedalus

problem with that course of action, is that the more people you put on psychiatric drugs, the more potential homicidal maniacs you're gonna have...more often than not, it's the drugs that make these people do these things...

Well, I think it's more about sucking people into the "mental health system" gathering information about people, keeping track of them and controlling/dominating them than it is about the drugs. It seems pretty evident that they can manipulate people even without drugs when they want to. And they can certainly coerce those who don't want to cooperate with threats of fines, imprisonment and all sorts of things. When it comes right down to it, I think they will play hardball where nothing else works.

Basically, I think it's all about finding out what people think and what they believe and purging them of "undesirable" thoughts and behavior. It is basically thoughtcrime in a spiffy new package, complete with fancy psychobabble to make sure people don't catch on.

religion is a form of mental illness, i believe....i mean, people do horrible things in the name of their invisible friend of choice..it's kinda sick. religion has brought more pain, and suffering, and death, and division, and hatred upon the human race, than a thousand, or even a million 9/11s......yet nobody talks about that...

I guess it depends on whether or not you believe 9/11 was a genuine terrorist attack. I have no doubt there are really bad people in the world who would have done it but I also have absolutely no doubt that it provided a very convenient excuse for TPTB in this country to start destroying civil liberties on an industrial scale.

As far as religion being a mental illness? I suppose it mingles with mental illness in the minds of some people who were already messed up but I don't think ordinary religion is mental illness in and of itself. It's mostly a coping mechanism for many people. People like simple answers.

At any rate, the right to believe what you want to believe is one of the fundamental principles of freedom. Frankly, I don't care if it's a delusion or not as long as long as they're reasonably stable and don't pose any immediate risk to anyone. They can believe water is dry for all I care.

so they'll label everyone mildly crazy, use that to take away the guns, and then violent crime will go up because people on drugs will flip out, and we'll end up seeing a lot more stabbings and beatings...this ain't the kind of change the obama-bots imagined when they went out there and shilled for him.

Well, like I said, they'll just start locking people up preemptively if that kind of stuff starts. I think the whole thing is ideological. They do want to create an orderly society (I think) but it's just that their vision of "orderly" is warped. In their vision of a perfect world, they will control everything that can be controlled. They will know everything that is knowable. They will use whatever solution works for any given problem. Simply because they can.

Im sorry guys but I just don't get it. How is this in any way affecting your day to day lives?

Never mind the government, Advertising and marketing agencies have been collating your date for years. They know where you shop, what time you browse certain websites. They Log your IP Address, your address and how many people live in your household.

If they can do it, why on earth has the fact the government have done it caused such an outcry?

If a family member of yours was blown up in a terrorist attack, and they could have prevented it by intercepting communications, would you still be so righteous with your views?

People bang on about their "civil liberties" and I should be able to do what I like because Im free.

People love a scandal and to be outraged.

How about sitting down with your family and enjoying a sunset instead of moaning that a CCTV camera caught you picking your nose.

Originally posted by Briles1207
Im sorry guys but I just don't get it. How is this in any way affecting your day to day lives?

Ummm. Because I have a right to my privacy and my personal dignity? I have a right to live my life without wondering if someone is watching me, what kind of information they're collecting on me and what they intend to use it for?

Because I read 1984 and my imagination is good enough to imagine that kind of a world with the technology we have available today (and will have in the near future)?

Never mind the government, Advertising and marketing agencies have been collating your date for years. They know where you shop, what time you browse certain websites. They Log your IP Address, your address and how many people live in your household.

And I believe they intend to use that data someday. They're not collecting and storing it for no reason. And it isn't just for marketing. If it was, the government would have little interest in it.

And it doesn't matter how long they've been doing it. That doesn't make it OK. If a serial killer has been killing people for 30 years, it doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

If they can do it, why on earth has the fact the government have done it caused such an outcry?

When you do business with someone, you generally sign a privacy agreement. Most people don't bother to read it but it's there and it spells everything out. You're supposed to read it before you sign it. The government isn't supposed to do this because there's this little thing called the 4th Amendment.

If a family member of yours was blown up in a terrorist attack, and they could have prevented it by intercepting communications, would you still be so righteous with your views?

Yes. I have real principles. I don't just pretend I believe in something until it becomes inconvenient. I feel sorry for you if your individuality and your rights aren't worth any more to you than to piss them away the first time something bad happens.

People bang on about their "civil liberties" and I should be able to do what I like because Im free.

What is that even supposed to mean? No one said we should be able to do anything we want. But I think I have a reasonable expectation of privacy when I make a phone call or surf the internet. Expecting to be able to use your phone without your calls being monitored isn't exactly a "wild west" kind of expectation, is it? Should we put cameras in our bathrooms so they can watch us taking a dump, too?

People love a scandal and to be outraged.

No. I don't love to be outraged. I remember when this same kind of crap was going on with Bush. All I ever wanted was for it to just stop.

How about sitting down with your family and enjoying a sunset instead of moaning that a CCTV camera caught you picking your nose.

How about you sit down with your family and reminisce about the good old days when the Stasi was large and in charge?

Originally posted by BrianFlanders

Originally posted by Briles1207
Im sorry guys but I just don't get it. How is this in any way affecting your day to day lives?

Ummm. Because I have a right to my privacy and my personal dignity? I have a right to live my life without wondering if someone is watching me, what kind of information they're collecting on me and what they intend to use it for?

Because I read 1984 and my imagination is good enough to imagine that kind of a world with the technology we have available today (and will have in the near future)?

Never mind the government, Advertising and marketing agencies have been collating your date for years. They know where you shop, what time you browse certain websites. They Log your IP Address, your address and how many people live in your household.

And I believe they intend to use that data someday. They're not collecting and storing it for no reason. And it isn't just for marketing. If it was, the government would have little interest in it.

And it doesn't matter how long they've been doing it. That doesn't make it OK. If a serial killer has been killing people for 30 years, it doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

If they can do it, why on earth has the fact the government have done it caused such an outcry?

When you do business with someone, you generally sign a privacy agreement. Most people don't bother to read it but it's there and it spells everything out. You're supposed to read it before you sign it. The government isn't supposed to do this because there's this little thing called the 4th Amendment.

If a family member of yours was blown up in a terrorist attack, and they could have prevented it by intercepting communications, would you still be so righteous with your views?

Yes. I have real principles. I don't just pretend I believe in something until it becomes inconvenient. I feel sorry for you if your individuality and your rights aren't worth any more to you than to piss them away the first time something bad happens.

People bang on about their "civil liberties" and I should be able to do what I like because Im free.

What is that even supposed to mean? No one said we should be able to do anything we want. But I think I have a reasonable expectation of privacy when I make a phone call or surf the internet. Expecting to be able to use your phone without your calls being monitored isn't exactly a "wild west" kind of expectation, is it? Should we put cameras in our bathrooms so they can watch us taking a dump, too?

People love a scandal and to be outraged.

No. I don't love to be outraged. I remember when this same kind of crap was going on with Bush. All I ever wanted was for it to just stop.

How about sitting down with your family and enjoying a sunset instead of moaning that a CCTV camera caught you picking your nose.

How about you sit down with your family and reminisce about the good old days when the Stasi was large and in charge?

Wow, you really have a need for people to agree with you huh? I suppose its for self validation. Thats cool, Its human nature.

My point is that this will only affect you if you LET IT.

Until there is proof that the government has used this information for sinister reasons, I will not see it as a threat to my personal existence.

If you want to jump around and shout "Theyre looking at what im doing and I dont like it because what im doing is of such importance that the government could jail me for years, thats up to you.

Believe me, 99% of what the population get upto is of absolutely no interest to the government and alot of the data they collect is worthless. You just arent that interesting.

What are they going to do with a text saying "Hey babe, thanks for last night, was great to see you"?

I know what you will say.

"It doesnt matter what information they have or whether im doing anything wrong, THEY SHOULDNT BE DOING IT"

Well im sorry but that is being outraged for the sake of being outraged.

You can continue believing that this is a sinister plot to control the massess, thats your perogative.

But dont drag people who dont care onto your soapbox by suggesting people who arent bothered are somehow idiots.

reply to post by Briles1207

He, like myself, probably thinks that the 4th Amendment is the same one that prevents the government from entering your home without a warrant and taking whatever they want.

If you agree with the government that the 4th Amendment doesn't mean anything, then you don't have a firm grasp of the purpose of our Constitution, IMO.

People bang on about their "civil liberties" and I should be able to do what I like because Im free.

Just think where we would be today if people had not worried about the Constitution when Watergate happened.

Im not american so probably not :-)

second line

Originally posted by Briles1207
Im not american so probably not :-)

second line

European leaders have been quoted as saying that what the US government did would be illegal in their countries.

If you are separated from us, then why rail on about us caring for our liberty?