It shouldn't matter if you aren't doing anything wrong

I'm sitting here scratching my head over the lack of reaction to the latest information coming out on the U.S governments spying activities. No, I'm not talking about the verizon scandal (although that is huge in its own way). I'm talking about PRISM.

For those of you who might not have heard the latest on this, You can read a bit about it here: source< br />
from the article:

It appears the National Security Agency’s sweeping surveillance is not something only Verizon customers should be concerned about. The agency has also reportedly obtained access to the central servers of major U.S. Internet companies as part of a secret program that involves the monitoring of emails, file transfers, photos, videos, chats, and even live surveillance of search terms.

The Washington Post disclosed Thursday that it had obtained classified PowerPoint slides detailing the program, code-named PRISM, from a career intelligence officer who felt “horror” over its privacy-invading capabilities. “They quite literally can watch your ideas form as you type,” the source told the newspaper.

Now most of this comes as no surprise to "conspiracy theorists" who have been trying to warn everyone about this stuff for years. While it bothers me that the government is so avant garde with their approach to the destruction of civil liberties, the peoples reaction to it bothers me more. Infact I find it deeply disturbing.

From the same article sourced above, are these gems in the comments section:

I've never seen such stupid over-reaction to nothing as on this board. Is there actually anyone who did not know the NSA monitors and analyzes practically every electronic signal in the world-- that's its job (watch a Hollywood spy movie, fer chrissakes). The way these people are acting you'd think they'd just caught the president secretly selling weapons to Iran and taking those proceeds to fund Nicaraguan terrorists......

and this:

I'm trying to recall where and when it was that I signed a "User Agreement For The Internet" that promised me that everything that I did on the public net would forever be completely private and confidential and shielded from monitoring by any party, including authorized agents of the government.

I've heard similar sentiments parroted here on ATS. The idea that we shouldn't be bothered by infringements on our civil liberties if we aren't doing anything wrong.

How is it that people can be so daft? Do they REALLY believe it's ok for their rights and freedoms to be eroded so long as they are obeying the law? I can't even wrap my head around the stupidity and lack of common sense and foresight involved in making such a statement. I can't help but think that people who make such statements have somehow been brainwashed.

Which brings me to my next question:

WHY aren't more people up in arms about this? You would think people would be ranting about this all over the front page of ATS?

Is it possible that the complacency and apathy we see in the average citizen over such issues is in fact a result of some of the indoctrination we've been through? Are they putting something in the water to pacify people? I just don't understand why people don't care?

It's like we are all sitting in the same car stalled on the train tracks, and we can see the train coming clear as day but we are all too lazy to just get out of the car...

I'm just baffled

I'm with you 100%....but what can we do about it. We can type and talk till our faces are blue but at the end of they day, they will do what they want. Pass the laws that they want. Kill us if they want. What can we do? How do we fight this BS? The only thing I see is, dropping off the radar but how hard will that be? People don't want to rock the boat. They're too comfortable...so can you blame them?


What can we really do about it? Serious question...

reply to post by DeadSeraph

Ive always been aware that court orders or not, all my activities on and off-line, plus home and cell phone, my cable viewing habits and credit card purchases...were all under archiving by the gov.

Its finally taking hold and breaking news where the John Q. Public is being made aware that this stuff has been long-standing, back to the 1st surveillance satellites we launced to intercept "enemies".." transmissions".So, they just happened to be capable of picking us all up as well....and there it began.

I dont know if we see it fully in our/this generation...but BIG BROTHER...the NEW WORLD ORDER...and the MARK of THE BEAST...are all coming true with the wealth of disclosure coming out for the masses in accepting that this is real.

I truly believe the people who post that nonsense are payed.

Unfortunately most people don't understand the laws that protect them, or are truly scared to speak out they've been told how to think for so long all you need to do is insult their intelligence, and they agree to whatever you say, so not to be thought of as stupid.

So, when to many people start complaining about an issue you just start calling them conspiracies, and use insults then watch all the sheep fall in line.

We're pathetic as a whole no one wants to stand out for fear of ridicule it's sad, and so damn irritating...

Originally posted by beatbox
I'm with you 100%....but what can we do about it. We can type and talk till our faces are blue but at the end of they day, they will do what they want. Pass the laws that they want. Kill us if they want. What can we do? How do we fight this BS? The only thing I see is, dropping off the radar but how hard will that be? People don't want to rock the boat. They're too comfortable...so can you blame them?


What can we really do about it? Serious question...

edit on 7-6-2013 by beatbox because: (no reason given)

I like to think that if an occupy wall street type movement would start, and demand answers for crimes against America most of us would stand with them.

I'd do it myself, but what would a nobody disappearing from the world gain?

Never mind, I'm with you what can we do?...

Originally posted by beatbox
I'm with you 100%....but what can we do about it. We can type and talk till our faces are blue but at the end of they day, they will do what they want. Pass the laws that they want. Kill us if they want. What can we do? How do we fight this BS? The only thing I see is, dropping off the radar but how hard will that be? People don't want to rock the boat. They're too comfortable...so can you blame them?


What can we really do about it? Serious question...

edit on 7-6-2013 by beatbox because: (no reason given)

That's the million dollar question. The thing that popped into my head today was the term "control structures". It seems to me that the entire system is set up in such a way that we are kept in neat little lines. If we step out of line on a large scale, the system is set up in such a way that we will soon willingly step back in line.

What I mean is how income is generated by most people in the western world. The bulk of us don't have the luxury of possessing large amounts of capital to play with. Where as the elite can use their money to make more money, most of the average citizenry work day jobs. We generally live pay check to pay check, and the bulk of our income goes to those wealthier than us in the form of taxes, utility bills, and rent/mortgage payments. If we get out of line, we go hungry.

With recent developments in public surveillance and the changes brought on by the digital age, I fear it will be easier than ever to simply "pull the plug" on someone who steps out of line. Hunger and poverty are powerful weapons.

Honestly, the only way I ever see it changing is complete collapse of western civilization. People will not fight back until they lose everything that keeps them comfortable and complacent. We have seen charismatic people step up to the plate and try to change things from within the system (Ron Paul comes to mind, whether you agree with his policies or not). However, the majority of people are spoon fed by the public school system and mainstream media so it's incredibly easy for the power brokers in the upper echelons of society to paint any legitimate threats to their control structures as crack pots or kooks (or racist crack pot kooks in Paul's case).

At the very least, I think we can make a change in how people view the idea of liberty and freedom. We can at least try to restore the value people place in these concepts. Currently, there doesn't seem to be a lot of respect for civil liberties among the general population. The only way people will give a damn about an erosion of freedom is if they can be convinced it is just as valuable (or more so) than their ipads or facebook accounts.

Maybe the only way we can do that is by illustrating how much easier it would be for "Big Brother" to take those things away from them with a surveillance state than without it? I'm not sure and I'm really at a loss as to how the little guy can fight back.

I've heard people say we need to fight back with our wallets and while I agree that could be an effective strategy, it only works if everyone does it. I fear we are running short on time and things could get ugly very quickly unless a large majority of people decide they've had enough of the crooks that run the show at the top.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


What about fighting fire with fire?

Maybe if we could convince people that minorities are the ones mostly being surveyed, and that it would make them lose what they've gained with the civil rights movement then the PC folks would join the cause.

Then we could call anyone who claims security over liberty a racists!

What can we do?
We could all unplug.
Personally, I have been thinking about just getting a pre-paid phone that doesn't require personal info. Do all my Internet surfing etc at a public place that has wifi.
I've already closed bank accts and only pay with cash, though it seems big bro is attempting to make that difficult to impossible in some cases.
Work under the table if possible...
Stop using store membership saver cards unless they're in a bogus name.
There are ways to avoid giving personal info out there, you just need to be pro active and creative.
People are too lazy, too dependent on the machine these days to walk away from it.
And THEY (TPTB) know it.
JMHO of course

I wonder if that argument cuts both ways.

Surely if government is doing nothing wrong they would let everyone read all their mail and film their offices, and they wouldn't have a major punitive freak out over Wikileaks?

So how about it?

I am shocked at the government for what they are doing, but...there is nothing I do online (or off ) that I would be concerned someone else knew. I'm one of the ones that think it doesn't matter if I'm not doing anything wrong. I have seen little here or anywhere else online that anyone says or does that would be something the government or anyone else really would care about. I am not a believer in conspiracies, so am not the least bit paranoid; I have the webcam lens covered with black tape to prevent a really unflattering picture being captured. Webcams are at a really, really bad angle.

What bothers me the most is the tremendous amount of equipment and people it takes to wade through the mundane crap they are "spying on." It's a big waste of time and money.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Goverment survillence technologuies being used on civilians required huge oversight to ensure they dont lose transparancy of the democratic process. Remember Eisenhower did warn o the industrial miliary complex, to always be on guard and dont let it become too controlling. How many US black projects go on outside of Us government scrutiny? does any one know for sure? So what you want to invite citizen survillence onto the black list and hope that contractors who run it wil do the right thing by the population (sheesh).

Hmmm, what can we do to stop government overreach?

How about voting for those who, instead of promising us riches, promise us freedom. That could work. Unfortunately, those politicians are hard to find and are usually not very charismatic. It takes a lot of effort to get those folks elected. It's tough, a lot of hours and no pay for your efforts.

Start at the local level and work your way up. Why focus solely on the National elections when the states can do more for your freedoms. Especially in this day and age. States are beginning to find there own freedoms and are pushing back on the Fed. Local elections can change the Fed.

How about taking a more active role in your government? Believe it or not, writing a letter to a congressman does affect the way they vote. Understand many are jaded and they have every right to be but, if you just sit there and complain on this website, nothing will ever change.

Occupy Wall Street? No, they were leaderless and failed. Not a good example for change. They did nothing but dirty up the sidewalks.

It is up to each and every one of us who values freedom to not just voice our disagreements, but to actively support those freedoms.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Oh I guess I can't resist reacting to such overt provocation. Public insults and all- who could resist bringing forth an equally exaggerated counter argument?

Actually, I don't feel you've put up enough argument behind your position to contend with. I'd need something besides "you're just daft if you are not against this". It's to easy to counter with "You must be a criminal if you're against it."

The issue of privacy on the net always makes me wonder if, when people started to gather together into grouped dwellings, forming villages, there was controversy over the problem that walking around in that village meant ANYONE might see your face, might be able to ask around and know your identity and background, might see your daily activities......?

If so, the answer was probably as simple as it is now- if you don't want to be seen and known, don't live in or walk around in, a village or city. Or in this case- don't use the internet. Stay out of that cyber-community.

I am not doing anything illegal, and am not really against those that are, being caught, in general.

Nobody made a big fuss when they passed the Patriot Act.
Few said anything when they started holding people without due process.
No one got in trouble when they were resorting to torture.
Nothing was said when they began assassinating US citizens.
Mum was the word when they started issuing biometric ID's and installing facial recognition tracking everywhere.

You honestly expect them not to take the next step down “police state avenue”?

reply to post by DeadSeraph


I've talked about it with real-life (non internet) people the last 2 days. The reactions ranged from trying to make fun of me by saying that I'm predicting they are going to put trackers in my d*** to pretending I didn't say anything, to anything else that could get them to not talk about what is actually happening. Its unbelievable how far people will go to avoid TALKING about it.

Does anyone else find this to be disconcerting?

reply to post by pirhanna
You can tell you're sarcastic friends that when they get a Real ID compliant (gold star) license that they get a United Nations International Civil Aviation Organization biometric facial recognition format photo that is put in a internationally searchable state database, and it allows you to be tracked by any facial recognition installed camera in the world.

The FBI just got a $2 billion dollar grant for these camera systems.
Florida has been installing them at every intersection for the last couple of years.
And if they still don't believe you, tell them to search up the Boston Marathon and see how the FBI admitted that they were running facial recognition searches against the federal passport, visa, and states drivers license databases.

They don't need to put anything in you, they can already track you.

Don't fret folks, it's all to protect the kiddies from predators or to stop the terrorists! What right minded citizen could oppose that?

All the talk of terrorism these days is laughable. Seriously, how many people are terrorized? How many people are living in constant fear of some bogeyman (whoever is deemed the bogeyman of the moment) and are terrorized?

They want us all living in fear, acting and thinking in lockstep and following the manipulated herd as we are easier to control that way. Any individuality or expression of opinions to the contrary is to be dealt with harshly and the perps made to look like kooks or subversive elements attempting to bring down civil society.
I have never been one to follow the herd and question everything, especially anything coming from the mouths of those who crave wealth and power over the rest of us. It is those people that are the danger to civil society.

They are all so paranoid, they spend as much time spying on each other as they do spying on us. Imagine how threatened they must feel to have so many peasants opposing them, while at the same time wondering which agencies or groups within those agencies are spying on them too as they all try to gain more power over not just us, but their political and control freak colleagues too.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


There was an NSA guy on TV yesterday talking about all the personal security measures he had to deal with on a daily basis........and made it clear that he felt it was no big deal if average Joe and Jane had to put up with some of this in their personal life/communications ect. Really?

reply to post by Britguy
Yes, good clean efficient running governments need to have all the barn yard animals chipped and accountable for every move they make.

And, with everybody small and large out their running around with Star Treck communicator why those dumb animals might start think of self more highly than they should.

We need to know where you are, who you talk to, what your buy and what you read. The "Beast" is afoot. This is all heading, and we are not far now, permission to buy and sell......the mark of the "Beast" the big machine. Welcome to the machine everyone.

Yes I have indeed noticed the "I dont care if Im monitored" attitude, for a very long time. To be frank, I am one of those who doesnt really care.
Ill explain why. I am not naive enough to think that the internet in not monitored 24/7. I know TPTB read all emails etc, or at least have access to them. And that's the deal we make with the devil, when we use the internet. You give up your privacy for quick emails and message boards and easily accessible porn etc. The thing is, I know my internet usage is pretty much no different for most of the population. So they aint gonna find much of interest with me or 80-90 percent of everyone else. So their monitoring the entire population is a waste of time.
Thats the first point.

Secondly its obvious that any "terrorist" or such as, would have to be pretty damned stupid to make plans over the internet...pretty dumb...and any "terrorist" they catch from using the internet probably wasnt that dangerous in the first place, more likely just some idiot or lunatic who likes to rant or fantasize online.
So monitoring the internet is also a waste of time if the objective is to catch terrorists...even tony soprano was smart enough to use pay phones...etc.

The intelligence community cant be that stupid...so the real reason for monitoring everyone is not to catch terrorists etc...the real reason is to cause mass paranoia...and coerce everyone to be submissive..or else.
Also this "leaked" information that they are monitoring everyone...how leaked is it really?? seriously. They want to reinforce the message that "WE ARE WATCHING YOUR EVERY MOVE". Well only an authoritarian parent would want to make children believe that, so they behave like well trained drones.

We have seen this pattern of behavior in the USSR..and we will see it again and again in the future. The Stazi had files on every citizen, and the west cried foul back in the day, about police states and big brother authoritarian regimes... but the FBI had files on everyone too..or almost...or was that the CIA.

So you have history repeating itself..as it always does anyhow. Lets face it, we do not need cell phones, we do not "need" the internet. And perhaps we should all just quit making it so easy for "them" to monitor us. i mean how much less full of anxiety would you be if you knew you couldn't be monitored? So opt out of the technological BS, it hasn't improved your life, just allowed you to become monitored voluntarily. Of course if you know you made a willing deal with the devil in the first place, the first time you used the internet, then you already accepted you gave up your privacy.

To me its much like drinking alcohol or smoking...there are potential consequences that people like to forget about...thats the internet.