Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by andy06shake


I was an alter boy and attended a catholic school. I had to go to church everyday before school. Than I would have to serve a wedding on Saturday and than serve a mass on Sunday. Oh, and some of the nuns were the meanest people you would ever want to meet! They enjoyed dishing out the corporal punishment like hitting your knuckles with a ruler, pulling your hair or ear, paddling, or holding a sheet of paper on the wall with your nose without making it fall to the ground.

I no longer attend church or follow religion. Part of the reason why, is the hypocrisy on the part of the priests. They used to live high on the hog, living off the parishioner's donations and owning big brand new cars and boats. Nuns would wait on them hand and foot as if they were Gods, and they ate like kings... They would then preach to the congregation of people who came from poor neighborhoods surrounding the church. These same people would give what little they had in the donation baskets.

Than there were the stories of Purgatory, a place where you go when you're not good enough to get to heaven and not bad enough to go to hell. (I guess we would all fit in that category). They would tell us if you said so many hail Mary's, and so many our fathers, it would release one soul into heaven. Who makes this BS up?
Than there's a saint for every possible thing you can imagine. Lose something, pray to saint Anthony. In desperation, pray to saint Jude. Need protection, pray to saint Joseph....

They also believe that during mass, the wafer actually turns into the flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine turns into the blood of Jesus Christ. I always thought it was just symbolic, but the priests actually believe a miracle is taking place on the alter! I've had to fill the chalices many times as an alter boy, and I can tell you for a fact, it's still the same dry bread wafers and wine I had to fill before the start of the mass.

The church doesn't even want you to take communion if you get a divorce. They only allow you if they annul your marriage. So if your husband beats you, the church turns their back on you because you got a divorce. If you don't receive the sacrament of confirmation, they don't allow you to be married in their church. Talk about not being tolerant or judgmental.

Then there's the spooky confessionals. When I was a kid, I used to think the confessional "closet" was a doorway to hell to confess your sins. You have to tell a priest in a dark closet who is sitting on the other side of a wall with a small sliding door, all your personal sins to get forgiveness from God. I used to picture priests sitting in a rectory laughing about some poor guy's sexual escapades and telling him, just say 6 hail Mary's and 3 Our Father's and your sins will be forgiven. I can picture the Vatican sending out charts once a year to priests that list how many of each prayer is needed to absolve a particular sin.

It's funny, but a lot of guys I know who were alter boys and had to go to church almost every day growing up, no longer attend church or practice the catholic religion. We all realized the hypocrisy and ridiculous control religion has on people.

reply to post by babloyi

If you have any follow-up from that, feel free to ask!

Alrighty...

[98.6] Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.

Are non muslims worse people then believers... In another video I recently saw it said Muslims only shake hands with a certain hand... so as not to corrupt or taint themselves... So does that mean a non muslim is "unclean"?

[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Yet...

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I suppose that's start...

reply to post by curiousme333

I just saw on the news that they are going to ban bikinis in the miss America pageant to appease the muslim community because in their eyes, it is disgraceful. Say what!!!! Then I thought maybe there was more truth to that documentary then some realize.

maybe i am reading wrong, i was looking for something like "muslims forcing to ban bikinis.." to make what the video says as true. No?

I am just amused that its on news and Miss America organisers care about apeasing muslims
i will still not buy whatever they are trying to sell!!

reply to post by Kgnow



kgnow : people, like me, who have left Islam and openly spread awareness to its darkness?

sk0rpi0n : I am someone who was once anti-Muslim... And here I am defending Islam

You just repeated twice that you "are not interested in defending people's personal opinions," however, you just rebutted me with YOUR opinion!

Thats not an opinion, its a direct response to your statement that you "left" Islam.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

Now in your book it says that Mohammad told his followers to kill one of his opponents by any means... even if they needed to lie to do it... How do you hold to a book where your prophet purposefully lies... admittedly to get their agenda accomplished?

my book? What book? Can you please mention the details. Its definitely not in Qur'an.
What i said before is mentioned here in Qur'an

16:106-Who disbelieved with God after his faith/believing , except who was compelled/forced, and his heart/mind (is) assured/tranquillised/secured with the faith/belief, and but who delighted/expanded his chest (innermost) to the disbelief, so on them anger from God and for them (is) a great torture.

Apparently its in "the life of Muhammad"... Is that the Koran?

This is what im talking about...

P.367
The apostle said "who will rid me of Ibnul-Ashraf, Muhammad bin Maslama brother of the Bani Abdul-Ashal said, I will deal with him O apostle of God, I will kill him... He said, "Do so if you can"... O apostle of God, we shall have to tell lies... He said, say what you like, for you are free on this matter...

reply to post by wildtimes


I was going to respond strongly to this thread on my honest opinion
of islam and decided that I wasn't drunk enough.
Too many people and nations back off from this false religion with very
barbaric roots.Nations are slowly being overun and taken over by thugs
who behave more like savage barbarians than humans.

I honestly don't care how many claim that islam is a religion of peace
that was taken over by a few radicals with their own version of islam.
The true meaning of islam is submission to islam and sharia.Anyone who
opposes this demonic-type religion faces the real possibility of losing their
head and life.

I will never submit to islam and sharia and I will fight them until my last breath.
I also don't care if my opinion is not politically correct and gets me into trouble.
I am 58 years old and I have always been an outspoken personality.I will not
shut my mouth and I will always loudly voice my opinion.

reply to post by Akragon

Hey Akragon!

Since you asked so nicely...

It helps if you read the whole of Surah Al-Bayina (98 what you quoted) completely for proper context of the verse you quoted. It isn't very long, just 8 verses. Here is a website where you can do it (a little cumbersome, since it provides 3 translations at the same time):
www.usc.edu...
By the way, the word used here which you('re translation) translated as "disbelieve" is actually the famous "kafar", used here in the verb form. Now a thing that I constantly have to point out, "Kafir" doesn't mean "unbeliever" or "non-muslim". Heck, the Quran has examples of muslims, jews, christians, pagans, even non-religious (in a non-religious context) who are "kafir". "Kafir" simply means someone who hides the truth, or tries disguising the truth. Heck, even the phrasing of the verse you quoted is quite telling: "Those who "kafaroo" (rejected the truth would be a better translation if you ask me), FROM AMONG the...", shows that simply being from the "People of the Book" or "Polytheists" doesn't make you a kafir.

As for the third verse you quoted, from Surah at-Tauba (Surah 9), again, I'd request you to read the verse in context of the rest of the Surah. Now Surah 9 is a little longer than 98, but perhaps you can read the first couple of lines. Anyhow, if it is still a bit complicated, the short of it is that 9:5 isn't a universally applicable instruction from God for all time. It was talking about a specific situation, and related that to a specific historical incident during Muhammad's time. If you're having trouble figuring it out from the Surah, or if you simply want some more detail, again, I'd be happy to oblige, but I'm trying to cut down on the size of my posts for now .

PS: In response to your final question (not directed to me), the "Sirat-ul-Rasul" (translated as "Way/Life of the Prophet") by Ibn Ishaq, is not in the Quran, nor does it come under the Hadith, and is not considered part of the Islamic scripture, because unlike the stringent and rigorous testing done on the Hadith (many of which still fail), the Sirat by Ibn Ishaq had no such verification process...he basically just wrote whatever. The text of this doesn't exist anymore, but only survives in a further edited, annotated and changed form by one of his students.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

Now in your book it says that Mohammad told his followers to kill one of his opponents by any means... even if they needed to lie to do it... How do you hold to a book where your prophet purposefully lies... admittedly to get their agenda accomplished?

my book? What book? Can you please mention the details. Its definitely not in Qur'an.
What i said before is mentioned here in Qur'an

16:106-Who disbelieved with God after his faith/believing , except who was compelled/forced, and his heart/mind (is) assured/tranquillised/secured with the faith/belief, and but who delighted/expanded his chest (innermost) to the disbelief, so on them anger from God and for them (is) a great torture.

Apparently its in "the life of Muhammad"... Is that the Koran?

This is what im talking about...

P.367
The apostle said "who will rid me of Ibnul-Ashraf, Muhammad bin Maslama brother of the Bani Abdul-Ashal said, I will deal with him O apostle of God, I will kill him... He said, "Do so if you can"... O apostle of God, we shall have to tell lies... He said, say what you like, for you are free on this matter...

No its not the Qur'an and its a biography, also Ibn Ishaq the writer is not always taken as authenic and all stories are not used by jurists to make rulings of conduct.

Here is another version from wikipedia

..Muhammad ibn Maslamah
said: "O Messenger of Allah,
do you wish that I should
kill him?" He said: "Yes." He
said: "Permit me to talk (to
him in the way I deem fit)." He said: "Talk (as you like)."..

read the full story here
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka'b_ibn_al-Ashraf

A number of reasons are
given for the assassination.
One reason is that al-Ashraf
had tried to provoke the
Quraysh against Muhammad,
and later composed verses insulting Muslim women.
Another reason is his
attempt to assassinate Muhammad. According to Norman Stillman, Muhammad was acting in
accordance with the norms
of the Arab society of that
period which demanded
retaliation for a slight to a group's honor.

and Akragon your knowledge of Islam is really non existent, hope i can clear your doubts, i appreciate your comments and would love to discuss. Where did you get that piece of information from? Some website?

Excellent and informative video. Thanks you

From the OP:

Watch, absorb, and please discuss. I hope to hear especially from Muslim apologists and sympathizers with your responses and reactions to the film.

I hope everyone on this board will watch it and discuss it, I'm interested in how it will be received by both sides. For me, it was riveting, and shocking.

My reasons for continually asking for people to point out the factual errors in the video include furthering wildtimes' desire to have people watch it, think about it, then comment.

It appears that that isn't going to happen. Let me use a very brief outline of the film, taken from it's website, to try to bring at least some of the ideas to the table. I'm sorry, wildtimes, that people refuse to watch it.

"If their central thesis is true -- and it's worth considering -- then this is the most horrific film of the 21st century so far." - The Charlotte Observer

Part 1: ‘There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet’
Our interviewees affirm their belief that Islamic violence is entirely orthodox behavior for Muslims and stems directly from the teachings and example of the Prophet Muhammad and the commands of the Koran. We learn that the example of Muhammad is one of a violent warlord who killed numerous people. The Koran – the verbatim words of Allah – prescribes violence against non-Muslims and Muhammad is the perfect example of the Koran in action.

Part 2: The Struggle
We learn that jihad, while literally meaning 'struggle', in fact denotes war fought against non-Muslims in order to bring the rule of Islamic law to the world. Violent death in jihad is, according to the Koran, the only assurance of salvation. One of our interviewees tells of his personal involvement in terrorism and his leaving Islam.

Part 3: Expansion
Following the death of Muhammad, his 'rightly-guided' successors carried his wars to three continents, fighting, enslaving, and massacring countless Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and others. Islam did not spread through evangelism or through its natural appeal, but through aggressive wars of conquest. The Crusades were largely a belated response on the part of Christian Europe to rescue Christians in the Holy Land suffering under Muslim oppression. The Muslim world today, while no longer the unified empire of the Caliphs, is exceptional for being responsible for the vast majority of conflicts around the world and for almost all of international terrorism.

Part 4: ‘War is Deceit’
A great problem with Western efforts to understand Islam is due to the Islamic principle of 'religious deception', which enjoins Muslims to deceive non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam. Muslim groups today in the West employ deception and omission to give the impression that 'Islam is a religion of peace', an utter fiction.

Part 5: More than a Religion
The most important characteristic of Islam not understood by the West is that it is more a system of government than a personal religion. Throughout its history, Islam has never recognized a distinction between the religious and the secular/political. Islamic law governs every aspect of religious, political, and personal action, which amounts to a form of totalitarianism that is divinely enjoined to dominate the world, analogous in many ways to Communism.

Part 6: The House of War
Islamic theology divides the world into two spheres locked in perpetual combat, dar al-Islam (House of Islam - where Islamic law predominates), and dar al-harb (House of War - the rest of the world). It is incumbent on dar al-Islam to fight and conquer dar al-harb and permanently assimilate it. Muslims in Western nations are called to subvert the secular regimes in which they now live in accordance with Allah's command. Due to political correctness and general government and media irresponsibility, the danger posed by observant Muslims in the West remains largely unappreciated.

www.whatthewestneedstoknow.com...

reply to post by logical7


No it came from the video... that is the topic of this thread...

Thank you for your reply

I suggest you and babloyi watch the video if you haven't already and respond accordingly... Considering you are the people that know this religion...

That might have quashed this flame before it started... ye know?

reply to post by Kgnow

You are lying about me and making personal assumptions and accusations when you do not know me. Any person that spreads suffering, tyranny, or oppression is wrong. Any religion, any culture, any nationality is wrong if they cause suffering.

Please stop with the presumptuous attempts at personal attacks. Please stick to the discussion!

Drama much?
I was addressing your statement that you had made about "peace, love, freedom, and liberty." I never said anything about you personally. So stop being so melodramatic and stick to the discussion points.

"Who abstain from sex, except with their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy" [Qur'an 23:5-6]

"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." [Qur'an 4:24]

"Your women are a field for you (to cultivate) so go to your field as ye will." [Qur'an 2:223]

www.astudyofquran.org...,0,0,1,0,0
Islam strictly forbids adultery... so rape isn't allowed. Common sense.

YOU implied Allah condoned rape and I want to see the exact verse where rape is explicitly mentioned...NOT verses that you think talks about rape. Either show it to me or stop making these blatantly false statements that anybody can cross-verify and double check.

Jihad was not lawful until after Muhammad left Mecca. Fact.
Challenge to you: Show me where taking up arms under jihad was ordered prior to the hijra of leaving Mecca.

Mohammad took up arms at a later point in time, yes. But your statement that "Islam started peaceful and grew murderous and totalitarian" is an opinion. The words "murderous" and "totalitatian" especially... they are used by someone with a clear agenda against Islam.

To quote all of the abrogations would be tiresome, there are too many! Many Meccan revelations were abrogated by Medinian verses. You know abrogation is wide-spread, don't act like I have to prove it to you. You're just beating around the bush to avoid facts that you already know to be true.

Get to the point please.
I said Allah is the God of the Bible as well... and we see that Allah changes his mind on certain matters, Nineveh for example.

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
Let me use a very brief outline of the film, taken from it's website, to try to bring at least some of the ideas to the table.

It is quite brief, and pretty low on references (except one from the Charlotte Observer).

Originally posted by charles1952
Part 1: ‘There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet’
Our interviewees affirm their belief that Islamic violence is entirely orthodox behavior for Muslims and stems directly from the teachings and example of the Prophet Muhammad and the commands of the Koran. We learn that the example of Muhammad is one of a violent warlord who killed numerous people. The Koran – the verbatim words of Allah – prescribes violence against non-Muslims and Muhammad is the perfect example of the Koran in action.

Short form: This is wrong. Long form: Muhammad was a state leader as well as a spiritual leader, and it occasionally came to him to physically fight for his people. The same was true of most of the OT Prophets, the same will be true of Jesus. I mention these examples to show that this is not anything UNIQUE to Islam.
The Quran prescribes proper etiquette in case a war occurs, and the circumstances in which such a war would be allowed to be fought. None of these circumstances are "They are non-muslim, kill them".

Originally posted by charles1952
We learn that jihad, while literally meaning 'struggle', in fact denotes war fought against non-Muslims in order to bring the rule of Islamic law to the world. Violent death in jihad is, according to the Koran, the only assurance of salvation. One of our interviewees tells of his personal involvement in terrorism and his leaving Islam.

Jihad can encompass many things, and "war fought against non-Muslims in order to bring the rule of Islamic law to the world" is not one of them. Such a very specific definition would definitely have a source, yes? No? Violent death in jihad is certainly not the only assurance of salvation in the Quran, another falsehood. If this interviewee who told of his personal involvement in terrorism was Walid Shoebat, we know of yet another falsehood now.

Originally posted by charles1952
Following the death of Muhammad, his 'rightly-guided' successors carried his wars to three continents, fighting, enslaving, and massacring countless Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and others. Islam did not spread through evangelism or through its natural appeal, but through aggressive wars of conquest. The Crusades were largely a belated response on the part of Christian Europe to rescue Christians in the Holy Land suffering under Muslim oppression. The Muslim world today, while no longer the unified empire of the Caliphs, is exceptional for being responsible for the vast majority of conflicts around the world and for almost all of international terrorism.

Countless christians and jews and zoroastrians and hindus and others were enslaved and massacred? I would definitely be interested in a source for this claim. And then the suggestion that Islam did not spread through evangelism or natural appeal, rather through aggressive wars of conquest is yet another absurd lie. Indonesia, the country with the largest population of muslims in the world, never had any islamic conquest. North and West Africa, another huge concentration of Islam, likewise had no conquest.
At the time of the Crusade, the Holy Land was in no way "suffering" under muslim oppression. Life certainly wasn't peaches and roses, but it was definitely better than the jews and the muslims would have under the Christians in their territory. The excuse used by the Pope was based on the actions of Al-Hakim, one single Caliph who had extreme views towards non-muslims. Hilariously enough, the Crusades actually began AFTER Al-Hakim was gone, and much of his damage (such as an attempt to destroy the Holy Sepulchre) was reversed and fixed (with the help of local Christians, all of who predictably, were also slaughtered along with the jews and muslims when the Crusaders attacked Jerusalem).
And muslims are responsible for all of international terrorism? That is also pretty absurd, and really doesn't work, unless you specifically define terrorism as "Bad things that muslims do".

Originally posted by charles1952
Part 4: ‘War is Deceit’
A great problem with Western efforts to understand Islam is due to the Islamic principle of 'religious deception', which enjoins Muslims to deceive non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam. Muslim groups today in the West employ deception and omission to give the impression that 'Islam is a religion of peace', an utter fiction.

More BS. There is no such thing as "the Islamic principle of 'religious deception'" (unless you mean in the sense that logical7 explained, i.e. that if one's life was threatened if one acknowledged they were muslim, they would be allowed to lie at that point- not, I strive to mention, something that all sects accept as permissible), or anything that "enjoins Muslims to deceive non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam". Muhammad may have used the phrase "War is Deceit", but so did Sun Tzu. And the Jews, and the Greeks, and the British, and the Americans (I draw all these comparisons because your point specifically talked about "the West" and "Western efforts to understand Islam". I'm pretty sure they get that point very well. it is a pretty old saying, but there's a huge jump from "War is Deceit" to "the Islamic principle of 'religious deception', which enjoins Muslims to deceive non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam".

Originally posted by charles1952
Part 5: More than a Religion
The most important characteristic of Islam not understood by the West is that it is more a system of government than a personal religion. Throughout its history, Islam has never recognized a distinction between the religious and the secular/political. Islamic law governs every aspect of religious, political, and personal action, which amounts to a form of totalitarianism that is divinely enjoined to dominate the world, analogous in many ways to Communism.

As I've mentioned in my response to Kgnow, Islam makes no divine command to "dominate the world" at all, in fact, quite the opposite- it acknowledges the existence of other religions, and straight out states that if they weren't meant to be there, they wouldn't have been there.

Originally posted by charles1952
Part 6: The House of War
Islamic theology divides the world into two spheres locked in perpetual combat, dar al-Islam (House of Islam - where Islamic law predominates), and dar al-harb (House of War - the rest of the world). It is incumbent on dar al-Islam to fight and conquer dar al-harb and permanently assimilate it. Muslims in Western nations are called to subvert the secular regimes in which they now live in accordance with Allah's command. Due to political correctness and general government and media irresponsibility, the danger posed by observant Muslims in the West remains largely unappreciated.

Not only an extension of the previous (false) point, but also bringing into the frame a completely false dichotomy. the term "The House of War" or "Dar al-Harb" occurs nowhere at all in Islamic scripture, so this entire point is total rubbish.

I hope now I have "addressed the video" to satisfaction? If you require more details with specific references, I'd be happy to oblige, but I'll need the specific references where these claims were initially made in order to do that. As I'm sure you understand, it is kinda difficult to prove a negative without the actual thing shown.

reply to post by babloyi

It would be worthwhile to discuss each of your comments individually. I'd rather not do that right now. At the end of your post you wonder about the specific references for these claims. I will not transcribe the film. I will suggest, if you want the specific references,

WATCH THE VIDEO! THEY"RE THERE!

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

I said Allah is the God of the Bible as well... and we see that Allah changes his mind on certain matters, Nineveh for example.

The God of the Bible is Yahweh. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the one true God, the living God.

Originally posted by xXxinfidelxXx
reply to post by wildtimes

 

I hate to sound negative and all, but we are all complicit so long as this violence continues to be done in our name. I know it sucks to not really be able to do anything about it as a minority in a supposedly democratic system but yeah...should put some fire under our asses to spread the word a lil more intently maybe. Believe me when I say that all that keeps me from going crazy when it comes to things like this is I detach myself emotionally from most things these days..which is how I can get down to the nitty gritty with some level of ease..not to toot my own horn or anything...but yeah...The truth is neither positive nor is it negative. The truth is merely what it is. I am not gonna say that I'm entirely emotionally detached. Hearing people go on and on about how much they hate people they've never met for insane reasons does get my blood boiling, but that's just people for ya. People tick me off. Facts are what keeps me going.

Just to let you know if you are Muslim, I don't judge you. Even though I am not Muslim but, not faithless, I understand where you are coming from. My religion is under constant attack as well, so I do understand. I love you and not in a twisted way like some people think when they hear the word "LOVE". The ironic thing is, it is religions like yours and mine that are under attack by the very same people. The people who only see and hear everything on t.v. The people who believe everything they read. The people who believe everything they have been taught is absolutely correct. Just put it this way, if you know you are good person and care about everyone, don't let anyone judge you. Let God judge you alone. You and I, as well as many others are in this together. Shalom.

reply to post by wildtimes


Thank you for sharing. Very important.

The only problem with Islam, is that the precedent set, and the context, as revealed in the movie, removes the love of God as being all-inclusive, it's like the worst of conservative, fundamentalist Christianity X2 because of it's violent nature in regards to it's pursuit of absolute domination. How sad is that, from God's perspective, or Allah's if Allah is God?

However, there are sublime spiritual interpretations of Islam also, which uplifts the spirit and gives consolution.

That's a real conundrum. Such hatred and violence conjoined with the nature of God and man's relationship with God, not a good thing.

Therefore if Islam is to retain it's relevancy in future history, it will need to be re-defined, understood only in the latter sublime aspect and the other, discarded once seen for what it is and represents, which isn't the least bit in alignment with the love of God, at all.

I think that God, if there is one, must be as heartbroken even angered (and God is very slow to anger) at both Islam and "Christianity" or what I call Churchianity to differentiate it from the authentic interest and passion (it's all for us, for "we") of Jesus himself.

Looks at what we've done with the revelations of God, even Mohammed in lopping off the heads of 700 people.

We f'd up. Oh God we are so sorry please forgive us if you are listening which you surely are. Have mercy on us in our ridiculous and pathetic ignorance and redeem us with your true nature as you are, as love, in the fullness of time and history.

But oh what do we do with "Islam"? Please guide and grant everyone the wisdom with which to be tolerant and compassionate ourselves and by our example, reveal a love of God upon which we can all absolutely agree.

Allah must slice a piece of Islam away with a curved sword in the dead of night.

Seriously.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Dear NewAgeMan,

Good to see you here, star for you. I think you're right that there are spiritual truths and paths in Islam that can be beneficial.

The video claims they can't be seperated, I don't know if that's true, but I dearly hope it is. If, happy thought, they can be seperated so only the "good" remains, how do we do it? Or, perhaps the first question should be who should do it.

I'd really prefer that the Muslims themselves go about "reforming" their religion. I'm worried that I don't hear about any significant efforts in that direction. And, with the possible exception of Kgnow, I don't see any ATSers with Muslim backgrounds willing to even entertain the thought.

As I've said before, if the Muslims don't "modify" their religion to eliminate the forced conversions, killing of non-believers, and expanding into new territories, the rest of the world will have to declare war or become submissive. Both of those options are unpalatable, but submission is more unattractive to me than the alternative. Unfortunately, this is the situation we will be in if the Muslims do not choose the path of "reform."

Wildtimes is pessimistic about the chance for peace. So am I. So, apparently, is what has been described as the "Religion of Peace" (Trademark, Osama Bin-laden). Prayers for you and your family.

With respect,
Charles1952

Dear babloyi, and anyone else,

I've been forgetting myself. Wildtimes wants peace, so do I. What do we do abut it? I saw something posted a little earlier today on another thread. I like it a lot:

Surely it would not be difficult for the head Muslim (I don't know his title) to say:

"The killing must stop! The hatred must stop! We are in Britain. We can follow our religion, but we have to follow their laws. You haters are painting Allah as a monster, you must stop. We will not tolerate violence from our community, we will help the authorities stop you. It is the will of Allah.

"And to you non-Muslims, we are sorry for the pain we have caused. We must stop hating each other. We will stop. We beg you to stop. If you agree, meet with us. We will gather here in six weeks. We will pray together, bring your religious leaders. We will share games and stories. We will greet you as friends and brothers, Children of God. We will learn from you, you will learn from us. We are all Britons. God Save The Queen!"

I'd pay money to hear that speech.

Can you support that speech, what about any one else? It really looks good to me. Why not make it a universal speech?

Islam is not even an Revelation mate, just writings picked off the shelf from many existing religions where they overran, once taken the words of the scripts where changed to suit a political Ideal thereby making the people captives enslaved, they are all enslaved in the wickedness of the teachers who don't know what they speak off.

Its a devolution of the real truth that can be demonstrated.