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Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

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posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:03 PM
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Hey, wildtimes!

Get ready for a pretty long reply. I have a busy life, and unfortunately can't spend all my day on ATS. Posting on these sort of threads takes something of a toll. especially with the significant amount of time I have to spend on crafting a reply.

Anyhow, in my response to you, remember, I don't know you at all outside of your posts on these forums, so I can only really respond to the "you" that you have portrayed here. Despite that, please understand that nothing I say here is a personal attack against you. I sometimes get set in a specific tone in these posts. It is probably from being worn out after all these years of responding to them.

Heck, originally, I'd even give verse by verse personal rebuttals to someone who had copied a listicle of a thousand evidenced verses from some anti-islam website as proof of Islam's evil. Predictably, I'd be ignored, or my rebuttals would be deflected, or maybe they wouldn't be. The end result, however, was the thread falling to the bottom of the first page, then the bottom of the second, then basically disappearing off ATS. All those several hours I dedicated were literally flushed down the drain. The same thing will happen to this thread. I probably did myself no favours by writing a 10 foot long post.

I'm sure you realise you're not the first person to ever post a video critical to Islam. Your thread is not the first to ever descend into islamophobic rants. I've heard all this before, and responded to all of it before...it is nothing new to me, so you'll understand why my posts may have a slight edge of snarkiness.
It isn't me trying to be rude, just me being weary. Because no matter how many posts I post, or threads I author, the next day, some new person will post the same statements again, the same videos again, in some new thread, thinking it is something new and edgey, and not even have seen my response. I often pepper my posts with links to older threads I did or participated in, but I get the feeling they're rarely re-checked.
But anyhow. On with it!

reply to post by wildtimes
 


Originally posted by wildtimes
Okay, why don't you and logical and babloyi make a video with as many references, as well outlined and literate, as these people who've been studying this stuff for decades?

Hahaha...what? I find the video format to be the absolute worst possible for relaying referenced, relevant and useful information. You have to sit through 2 hours of hateful droning and cull what ends up being about 5 lines of points. Why on earth would I do that? Documentaries are there to entertain people. I have better ways of entertaining people than documentaries. And also, studying this stuff for decades? Not one of those interviewees have studied islam at all.


Originally posted by wildtimes
Not ONE of you has offered up a "counterpoint" documentary to refute what these folks are saying. Anderson Cooper did a seeming fair job of casting aspersions on "Shoebat's" story - fine, take him out of the equation. Credibly show us that the rest of the people who spoke are ALSO frauds, ignorant liars, and warmongers.

As I said in my previous post, buster already did. I even did myself, albeit more focusing on their ethical and academic qualifications.

PS: I'm not sk0rpi0n, but when people go on and on and on and on about how Islam and muslims are UNIQUELY violent, and UNIQUELY hateful and UNIQUE in all the negativity, I'm pretty sure it becomes relevant to post how other religions and people are like that as well.

reply to post by wildtimes
 


Originally posted by wildtimes
I don't doubt it's there - in the video they do a whole section on the sequence of events, and the "sequence" of the Quran's recording of those events - it is NOT in chronological order - just like the Bible is not. Therefore, they are both suspect.

The Quran is not a history book, and isn't meant to be a history book. It has some passages talking about certain historical events, but that is certainly not the purpose of the Quran. I do not see how not being in chronological order causes it to be suspect.


Originally posted by wildtimes
The problem, as I see it, is that people CHOOSE which passages to "take to heart" and which to ignore - on both sides. And as long as ANYONE is doing that, it doesn't matter if they've read and memorized it, or if they're illiterate and just listening to clerics or clergy. SOMEONE is inciting violence, and OTHERS are engaging in it.

True enough, and true for almost every religion in existence. So it probably goes to show that people misusing scripture to incite violence is hardly a reflection of that scripture.


Originally posted by wildtimes
For all the people saying, "Go to the source, read the Quran" - well that's all fine and good - but we don't have the luxury of expecting everyone to stop and read it - and get the "peace" message that is purportedly in it.

You link an almost 2 hour video in the OP, yet mention that people won't have enough time to read? What is the world coming to? Must we get all our information in moving pictures and soundbites and trite phrases uttered by self-proclaimed experts?

Originally posted by wildtimes
Do you see? It doesn't MATTER what "the source" actually says as long as there are brutal, suicidal/homicidal killers and war-mongers on either side. So, in my humble and flimsy opinion,

just "reading the Quran" is NOT going to do anything to help the problem - it's hard to focus on reading when you're worried about being hurt at any moment.

Since your thread title, and (excuse me if I'm mistaken) your original premise dealt with Islam, and your video specifically spoke about islam, as opposed to muslims, it makes sense that people would talk about the Quran. When you talk about Islam, you talk about the Quran (and Hadith), for ISLAM, none of the other stuff is relevant.


Originally posted by wildtimes
Oddly, most of the Muslim participants that come to ATS do not disclose which "sect" they claim - or they say they don't affiliate with ANY of them.

I wasn't lying or hiding anything when you originally asked your question. As I mentioned then, and I mention here again, most people aren't going to disclose personal information to strangers on the internet. While I did, even suggesting that you do so as well, just to level the playing field, you conspicuously ignored that part of my post. What is your background, wildtimes? Religiously, geographically, "ethnically", academically? Or would you feel unsecure about revealing such information? If you do, why wouldn't others?

reply to post by wildtimes
 


Originally posted by wildtimes
No. I am not asking for "discrediting Luton" or "discrediting Shoebat" -
I'm asking for an in-depth presentation of the "peaceful Islam" that you say is predominant.

I wasn't offering any "discrediting Luton" video. I was suggesting to you that you watch the actual Luton documentary that was linked in short (and cleverly and maliciously edited) form in the second post in this thread


Originally posted by wildtimes
WHO IS RIGHT?
I want sources that are thorough, compelling, well-documented and professionally-presented explanations of ISLAM AS PEACEFUL. A counterpoint to the video you haven't even watched (out of knee-jerk 'disgust'?)
And I'm not seeing any being given. Calling one guy a liar or brushing off murder as "nah, just a nutjob extremist. nothing to see here, move along" - is NOT what I'm looking for.

But they are. If someone told you that Hitler had the right ideas, and you should read his book, wouldn't a simple, direct and obvious retort to this be "No, his actions show he didn't"?


Originally posted by wildtimes
I am willing to blame the media for 'sensationalizing' and 'exaggerating' and 'selective journalism', if they are the problem. I look at Muslim news outlets as well - even amongst themselves they point fingers and cry "Wrong! Infidel!" at each other.

Do you really? Which ones? What exactly is a "Muslim news outlet"? I don't think I've ever seen one. Do you read them regularly? Is this a regular occurrence in them? Where do they do this to each other? If I ask for specifics you will dig out one link from one website that may be 6 years old or something?


Originally posted by wildtimes
I really don't think you can accurately address the OP without watching the whole video.
It does have facts, historical timelines, biographical information...there are 6 parts. ALL need to be reviewed. You can't just go to "First Day of Classes" and expect to really learn a subject in school. Same with religion. You read the book. You liked it. Fine. That doesn't make you an expert on the finer nuances, history, evolution, background and inception of the book.

Are the people in the video experts on the finer nuances, history, evolution, background and inception of the book? Because I think it has been conclusively proven that they aren't. If I am wrong about this, I would happily accept the academic or scholarly credentials of any one of the interviewees in that video. And as I said, I went through 10 minutes of the video, and I saw no facts, historical outlines or verified biographical information. Just lots of people talking about their bigoted opinions.


Originally posted by wildtimes
I'm not trying to discredit YOU, babloyi, I just wonder how many "peaceful Muslims" are paying attention to how Islam is seen from the outside looking in (not good, not safe, not peaceful). It's not for lack of looking either - I spend hours a day looking at EVERYTHING I can find - online and off - so please don't accuse me of "unbalanced hating" or harboring "unwarranted 'phobia' " or being a "fool." That's not fair.

I have no knowledge of you outside of what you yourself have posted on these forums, but surely it can't be that hard to find loads and loads and loads of videos of the Islamic side of things. Just do a search on youtube as logical7 suggested. Did you really look that long and not find any? The anti-islamic videos must really have drowned them out!


Originally posted by wildtimes
I have been aware of Ba'hai for a few years now, and have visited their temple in Chicago - I've read their history, and their "approach", and it seems VERY peaceful to me.

The fact that Ba'hai is considered "heresy" and Muslims are slaughtering THEM, TOO, is what really frightens me.

Bahá’í don't self-identify as muslims, so I don't know what you mean. And muslims are slaughtering them? Where? Who? When? The last one I know of was in 1998 by the Iranian regime, for converting someone to the Bahá’í faith. Now that is a horrible thing, yes, and it is good that such stuff has stopped now, but how does that translate in your mind to "Muslims are slaughtering them"?


Originally posted by wildtimes
If Islam had a "unified" code of conduct, it might be different. But they don't. They are too loosely structured, with no clear leadership - so it's a "wildfire" out of control.

So on one side, muslims are already accused of being some borg-like robots who do stuff without thinking for themselves, and on the other side, there are calls for some unified code of conduct?


Originally posted by wildtimes
Also, the point that the Qu'ran states that the most recent 'revelations' NEGATE any earlier ones - as Muhammed "changed his mind" - so did the Qu'ran. And the documentary asserts that the book is not put together IN SEQUENCE.

Oh yeah, and you (and many others here) keep going on about how most recent revelations negate any earlier ones. First off, this is totally and absolute ridiculous BS. Secondly, the famous "There is no compulsion in religion" is a Medinite verse, so that blows this theory out of water anyhow.


Originally posted by wildtimes
Divide and conquer. Cause chaos, let it go on long enough and then come in and offer a "solution" - everyone is so exhausted from all the chaos they will eventually say, "whatever. Just make it stop, and do it now."

I am confused by you, wildtimes. Half the time you post stuff with conspicuous question marks (almost as if you're trying to dodge any "blame" that may lie with those opinions by softening them with adding a question mark as if you're asking), like "IS ISLAM EVIL?" or "DOES ISLAM TELL YOU TO EAT YOUR BABIES?", and talk about wanting to stop the violence and achieve the peace, and how we should all be united, and you just want to figure it all out, but then the other half of the time you talk about how you're opposed to Islam and talk of how your OP makes that obvious, expressing suspicion on those who claim to have no sect, and you're here to "rock the boat" and you end up doing exactly what you're preaching against...fomenting divisions and hatred.

reply to post by Akragon
 

Seems your question was answered, Akragon? Yes?

lreply to post by charles1952
 

Hey Charles!

Originally posted by charles1952
It's a documentary. Of course I would assume there were facts in it. That's what documentaries are. If it matters, I wrote this:

I suppose you have more faith in those people than I do
. I expected none of those things, and predictably, didn't get any. You didn't ask any specific questions about the information in the video, and I saw no specific referenced facts, so I suppose our conversation ends here for now. Some of your concerns were probably articulated by someone else who I responded to, so read on if you wish!

reply to post by andy06shake
 

Top 1 problem with your list: None of the stuff is true in the way you presented it. And that isn't surprising. "americanthinker.com", ey? The perfect place to get information about Islam!

reply to post by Kgnow
 

Hey Kgnow!

You posted some stuff you say is off the video, without references (not that you didn't provide the references, the video itself probably didn't provide any either), but heck, I'll answer them as it is.

Originally posted by Kgnow
1. Muhammad preached peace in his weak beginnings in Mecca, and later developed the concepts of war, murder, and oppression of non-Muslims after he created a stronghold in Medina. From then on out it was jihad and conquer. In chronological order of Qur'anic revelation, Islam started peaceful and grew murderous and totalitarian. Islam was only based upon peace in the beginning.

As I mentioned, the "There is no compulsion in religion" verse is a Medinite, quite late into the Medinite era, so that kinda blows that point out of the water.


Originally posted by Kgnow
2. Most wise, most compassionate, most merciful, and loving Allah never outlawed slavery nor the rape of slaves. Instead, Allah allows it and only says it is better to release them or it is better to treat them kind. Slavery and forced sex of slaves by their masters is less than "most compassionate". It should have been completely outlawed, not compromised.

You mean the only religion in the world that explicitly calls for the freeing of slaves as a good deed, something to be done and achieved? You mean the religion whose founder was personally involved in the freeing of almost 40,000 slaves? I'd be hard-pressed to find a comparable example in any other religion. And I'm not sure how you went from sex to rape there. So whenever someone is talking about having sex, they're actually talking about rape?


Originally posted by Kgnow
3. Allah in the Qur'an changes his mind and contradicts himself and glosses it over with the concept of abrogation.

Interesting. Care to quote a relevant example? The usual go-to example in this case is the one about alcohol originally being allowed, and then being banned. Notwithstanding the fact that that isn't really relevant here, the verse originally "allowing" it said not to have it before praying. Hardly a contradiction. And besides, if you are a scholar of Islam, I'm sure you realise the stupidity of attempting to simplify the tradition of abrogation as understood by muslims after the time of the prophet as simply "old==wrong, new==right".


Originally posted by Kgnow
4. The Qur'anic Median hate, oppression, and murder of non-Muslims combined with End Time eschatological teachings of an all-encompassing war between the global Muslim collective versus non-Muslims makes it impossible to say Islam is a religion of peace, love, freedom, and liberty.

That is weird, considering another Medinite verse that mentions that if God had wanted muslims to be all-encompassing and world-wide, he'd have made it so. That we are all different, all here on this earth together is for an express purpose. The idea that Islam seeks and desires an all-encompassing, totally Islamic, nothing-else world system that all muslims must strive for is ridiculously false, and negated by the eschatology you talk about! Sure, in the END end-times, Jesus will rule with peace, etc. etc., but that happens in the end, and is basically the same as the Christian understanding as well. And again, with a mind to show the falsehood of Islam being the uniquely violent and war-hungry one out, never mind Judaism, Christian eschatology is basically the wonderful peace-loving Jesus we all know coming back and destroying every nation to the point of slaughtering everyone who opposes him, so that no group would not be grieving, and then imposing his will with an iron rod.

Oh, and btw: When I mentioned to wildtimes that I am a muslim and I self-identify as a muslim with no sectarian qualifiers, I was quite serious. As a muslim, my sources for Islam are the Quran and the Sahih Hadith. I do not know, nor do I care about Ibn Kathir, or Pooya/Ali. They may be interesting as a target of academic study, and I might pick up a few things from them (and elsewhere), but for me, the scriptures are self-evident.
edit on 7-6-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by Rosinitiate
Stop the hate and stop judging people and their faith. Don't be ignorant....you all know full well there are plenty of devout Muslims who don't hate just as there are devout Christians who do. So drop the I just want the truth to shine for the betterment of the world bull#. Get off your high horses and self righteous attitudes.


^ THIS ^

Behind all the faux politesse what's really the end game here?

Banishment? Reformation? ... Extermination?

We can perform an expose on many different religions, there are others that are just as manipulated and self-serving as Islam. What does it really accomplish aside from fear and hate?

This is the question that deserves an honest answer here.




posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by KyrieEleison
 


OMG!! I know right! What a perfect song as a rebuttal lmao. I have it bumping in the background, man this brings back memroies. I even want to bust out my Fender!
Thank you for that!!!



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by Rosinitiate
 

Dear Rosinitiate,

Thanks, I appreciate the time and thought you put in to your post. Let me try to provide a couple of answers.


So I don't know what worse the fact that I have been following this thread, or the fact I don't even know what the hell anyones position on this is anyway....nor do I really care.
I believe this thread, or at least the topic it's discussing is one of the two or three most important "worldly" issues we face. My position is simple. IF the video is correct, then there is a group of people intent on converting the world to their system of belief, by force if necessary. This is neither a small group or a poor one, if they threaten, the threat is real and significant.

The question about whether they teach hate is not

pointless, irrelevant and hardly worth obsessing about.
If Islam at it's core as a religion, teaches hate, I believe that makes them unique in the world with the possible exception of Satanism. Don't dismiss this lightly, it's essential to understanding the question.


Stop the hate and stop judging people and their faith.
Here, too, you seem to be dismissing things too lightly, without sufficient thought. I don't believe I, wildtimes, Akragon, Kgnow, or others have expressed hate. Extreme frustration, sure, but that's what happens when you ask a question and a dozen pages later there's still no answer.

Depending what you mean by "judging," of course we have to judge people and their faith. We judge people by their actions and faiths by their teachings. That's entirely appropriate.


Don't be ignorant....you all know full well there are plenty of devout Muslims who don't hate just as there are devout Christians who do.
That may or may not be true, but it's entirely irrelevant. Every religion has people who fall short of the ideal of that religion. The ideal of Christianity is to love, and they fall short who hate.

The videos' position seem to be that the ideal of Islam is to hate, and those who don't, fall short unless they are trying to avoid persecution and attack by seeming peaceful.

So, for the umptylebenth time.
WILL SOMEBODY POINT OUT SIGNIFICANT FACTUAL ERRORS IN THE VIDEOS?


So drop the I just want the truth to shine for the betterment of the world bull#. Get off your high horses and self righteous attitudes.
So you're strongly opposed to judging people, are you? I want the truth to shine. I want to know the situation. Are we facing a religion bent on conquest by any means, including force?

And you don't want the truth to shine for the betterment of the world? Seems odd to me.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


"Top 1 problem with your list: None of the stuff is true in the way you presented it. And that isn't surprising. "americanthinker.com", ey? The perfect place to get information about Islam!"

Its not my list per say, but since I posted it I guess its my responsibility.

So Sharia law does not promote any of the atrocities on the list? What articles of the list were incorrectly presented?

Granted i could have found better source material. However I actually found the link quite informative. Especially the videos of female Muslim women being held down and punished with a whip/switch, that was on the list, was it not?

www.americanthinker.com...

What about the video of Stacey Dooley trying to interview the Muslim protesters while being told she should put some more clothes, who is she trying to seduce?

What about the finger pointing in her face, the intimidation?

What about UK burn in hell, British police burn in hell chants in the background?

None of the above is acceptable especially the comments directed towards a lady!

www.youtube.com...

Honest question, how do you feel about radical Muslims calling for Sharia law in the U.K? Should there not just be one law of the land?

Sorry for all the questions.

edit on 7-6-2013 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:46 PM
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edit on 7-6-2013 by Rosinitiate because: no value in posting.....



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by KyrieEleison
 

If I wasn't in my currently charitable mood, I'd point out how horrible Metallica's music is, and how much of it they stole...
but you can't deny some of their stuff was great
.

reply to post by andy06shake
 

Shariah Law, as a unified, codified system of rules doesn't exist, so yeah, it doesn't. Also, no country today, or any that existed in history before, followed the rules your list set out, so again, yeah.

As far as your video goes, I'd suggest the same to you as I suggested to wildtimes. While I have no particular love of recommending videos or documentaries to people, and I consider that particular one nothing more than a personal fluff piece, and certainly not any sort of investigative reporting, instead of focusing on a 4 minute clip that was edited out of a much larger documentary, why not watch the whole documentary? It is available on youtube. You might then find answers to your questions yourself!



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:54 PM
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In the United States of America, we currently have 310,338,864 Americans living inside our borders. I will not take in account how many Americans live abroad. Out of the 310,338,864, there are between 6 and 10 million Muslims living here in the United States. It is believed that about 8 million are considered “spiritual” Muslims. If we take the proverbial 1% we consider radical Muslims running around here in the United States of America, out of that 8 million, that would leave around 80,000. If you want to take into account how many Muslims live in the world today. The Wikipedia report estimates 1.57 billion as the most reliable estimate. That is over 5 times the amount of people who live in the United States. If you want to take 1% of the radical Muslims that we need not worry about, out of the 1.57 billion, we are looking at about 15,700,000. 1% can be a whole bus load of radical Muslims. I’m tired of people who think 1% of anything means squat!



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Actually i did watch the full version (57 mins long) last week.

www.youtube.com...

Please at least address the question pertaining to the protesters chanting. UK burn in hell(They are in the UK!), British Police burn in hell.

If I was to attempt this i would be arrested, then probably sectioned!

But its apparently ok for Muslim protesters to do so.

Another thing, Stacey Dooley has done charity work with poor wee starving (Some of them obviously Muslim)children all over the world, how can you suggest she is part of some kind of Islamophobic video?

edit on 7-6-2013 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by andy06shake
 


Originally posted by andy06shake
Actually i did watch the full version (57 mins long) last week.

www.youtube.com...

Please at least address the question pertaining to the protesters chanting. UK burn in hell(They are in the UK!), British Police burn in hell.

If I was to attempt this i would be arrested, then probably sectioned!

Would you really? I don't think you are aware of your rights.


Originally posted by andy06shake
Another thing, Stacey Dooley has done charity work with poor wee starving (Some of them obviously Muslim)children all over the world, how can you suggest she is part of some kind of Islamophobic video?

Did I? Where?
Also, "poor wee starving"
.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I don't have time to sit through an hour and a half of propaganda. I go straight to the source and read the Quran.

thats what i have been trying to say, but i would suggest reading an exegesis too, written by scholars to get the background of the verses and to understand things in context.
A Site that I refer to for detailed explanation of Qur'an


Uh, No. Then you're relying on someone else's interpretation, and that interpretation may be false. That's how you end up getting indoctrinated or brainwashed.

i am not relying on one interpretation, i am learning arabic but till then i need someone who knows it and the context, time and situation a verse is revealed in is not dependent on any tafsir, its just the historical background and it helps to get a better understanding.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:05 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 

You know, I was thinking about putting together a response to you based on your lengthy post. I was even considering watching the full Luton video you were encouraging us to see. Before I got well into it I noted the exchange you had with andy06shake.

He watched the video and made releveant comments about it. You had three things to say. One was that andy06shake wasn't fully aware of his rights under the British legal system. The second was that you disagreed with andy06shake's objection to your characterization of the video. The final comment was to laugh at him for using the word "wee" as a synonym for "children."

If the frivolous inanity of the response to andy06shake is a sample of what is to come, it appears that there is no interest in entering into any discussion at all. I see the deflections and insults continuing.

If there is time for long posts, may I suggest you respond to the video, or the points in it, as set out earlier? I don't mean simply saying "No, that's not right."

Babloyi, I realize my opinion has no weight at all, but I am disappointed. You held out promise of being someone that might, possibly, be someone who would at least recognize the issues.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 



Seems your question was answered, Akragon? Yes?



Not so much...


Why not answer the question Charles has asked numerous times....

Theres lots of verses in the video that are not about peace... Kgnow has quoted a few of them...

What is your take on the violent verses... and can you refute them?




posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7
 


I just expect that you show empathy for the people rather than paint them as savages, most have been pulled into a war that they don't want.

Oh, please.
Really?

Have I not shown empathy? I'm beginning to feel powerless to do anything at all.
They ARE behaving like savages. I DID NOT start the war. I want peace, and you know it, and it really irritates me that you keep trying to portray me as an ignorant, callous 'Western heathen.'

At this point, you are simply trying to defame my character - and that is unfair.

How many times do I have to say "All of you, stop it!" for you to acknowledge that I want PEACE? That I have said so countless times? That I have been open and listened carefully and discussed with you for MONTHS now! And you are, once again, TURNING ON ME - fangs bared and claws out.

You are pretty good at being facetious. You don't recognize when someone gets so frustrated that they just say, "Fine! Do whatever you want!" then throw their hands in the air and give up??!!!
Really? SERIOUSLY?!!

How sad. How unfair and what a betrayal of good-faith.:shk:




Did the muslims start the war? Are the ones who are dying responsible?
Muslims were protesting against a regime and wanted change. Just like the arab spring in Egypt, how it ended up in a bloody war.

People are protesting in Turkey now, what would you say if Russia and Iran supplies them arms. How wise is it arm discontent people to get geo political benefit. I know you are against it.

How would it be if a country supplies military support to the unsatisfied factions in USA to start a bloody civil war. Americans killing americans and i come on ATS and say STOP it and demand how americans can be such savages??!

The thing i am allergic to is you shifting your stand.
I am not interested in blaming the west, the war mongers are using muslims who are emotional and uneducated and its the fault of muslims. Inshallah people will stop becoming a pawn in the hands of the war mongers.

I want you to clearly state your stand.
Do you think islam in inherently violent?
If No then, Do you think muslims should follow islam more?

Do you think if muslims get their act together then the west would simply leave? And if they don't would you support a muslim army kicking out all western armies from ME and Afghanistan? It could mean 3rd WW. It could also mean USA collapsing economically.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Originally posted by charles1952
You know, I was thinking about putting together a response to you based on your lengthy post. I was even considering watching the full Luton video you were encouraging us to see. Before I got well into it I noted the exchange you had with andy06shake.

He watched the video and made releveant comments about it. You had three things to say. One was that andy06shake wasn't fully aware of his rights under the British legal system. The second was that you disagreed with andy06shake's objection to your characterization of the video. The final comment was to laugh at him for using the word "wee" as a synonym for "children."

Actually, he didn't make any comments about it, His comments were solely based off the 4 minute edited clip of the documentary from the 2nd post of this thread, which he himself had linked to in another thread elsewhere on ATS.
And are you in the UK? I'm not trying to be exclusionary or anything here, even if you aren't, you realise that my response was a direct and relevant statement based off his. He said "Muslims do it, nothing happens, if I did it, I'd be arrested". This is not true at all, otherwise there'd be no EDL left.

And yeah, so I find "poor wee starving children" funny. I'm sorry if that bothers you. If you don't have any significant response to my post, or to my "responses to the video" as you keep asking (in actuality responses to Kgnow's telling of what the video says), then it is hardly fair to try shifting the blame on to my previous response!

"Respond to the video" is just as vague and useless a "counter" as "The video is wrong", but If you have some specific question outside of my response to Kgnow's telling of the video (do you believe that telling was inadequate? It was the only one I got), feel free to ask. Or if you're serious, then...pity, I guess, but life goes on!

reply to post by Akragon
 


Originally posted by Akragon
Not so much...


Why not answer the question Charles has asked numerous times....

Theres lots of verses in the video that are not about peace... Kgnow has quoted a few of them...

What is your take on the violent verses... and can you refute them?

Charles did not ask any specific question about the video, Akragon, just repeatedly made the assertion that no one had "responded to it". In fact, throughout the entire 13 pages of this thread, Kgnow was the only one to ask specific questions based off the stuff in the video (rather than a generic "respond to the video" request), which is why I answered Kgnow's comprehensive list of questions/statements, with (what I hope) is a comprehensive answer. If you have any follow-up from that, feel free to ask!
edit on 7-6-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-6-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-6-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by WeRpeons
 


I tend to agree with you when comes to some of the more extreme versions of Islam. However, their treatment of women (honour killings, etc.) does not give us the right to interfere, nor does it give us the right to democratize the sh t out of them when they could very well have already had democracies (I'm thinking Iran here) if we hadn't made that impossible through the "bigger d ck" foreign policies of ours. Like I said..those to whom evil is done shall do evil in return. I am curious as to where in the Koran it states that killing the "infidels" (guess that really puts me in the hotseat now doesn't it :p ). I have had many muslim friends over the course of my life and nowhere have they even hinted that such is seen as the right course of action. Also, said friends have a high view of women, if not due to their faith, than due to their own underlying moral structure. Regardless though, there are bad apples in every culture. How can there be a discussion about radicalized zealots without also bringing up Christianity or Judaism? As far as I know, the founding father of modern mass terrorism just so happened to be an Ashkenazi Jew. So as far as that goes, radical Islamists are only using the means of communication that we in the West has taught them, and they speak it quite fluently if you ask me. Who's to say what the middle east would be like if there had been no attempts at colonialism by the Europeans, given that what is now Northern Iraq is considered by many historians to be the cradle of civilization. If Islam is as evil as you think it is, it has only gotten that way through years of external perversions of their belief systems. Ever wonder what the most efficient way of oppressing a group of people is? You pervert them to the extent that they become the means of their own oppression. It worked with African Americans in the suburbs of Compton and Detroit, it worked in Africa itself and it has worked quite thoroughly in the Middle East and China.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





Now in your book it says that Mohammad told his followers to kill one of his opponents by any means... even if they needed to lie to do it... How do you hold to a book where your prophet purposefully lies... admittedly to get their agenda accomplished?

my book? What book? Can you please mention the details. Its definitely not in Qur'an.
What i said before is mentioned here in Qur'an

16:106-Who disbelieved with God after his faith/believing , except who was compelled/forced, and his heart/mind (is) assured/tranquillised/secured with the faith/belief, and but who delighted/expanded his chest (innermost) to the disbelief, so on them anger from God and for them (is) a great torture.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:51 PM
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Hello all. Just watched the vid yesterday and then read some of the posts claiming to all but debunk sources of the information disclosed. Some of that might be true, but I just saw on the news that they are going to ban bikinis in the miss America pageant to appease the muslim community because in their eyes, it is disgraceful. Say what!!!! Then I thought maybe there was more truth to that documentary then some realize. Who the hell are they to tell us what to do!!!! This is AMERICA!!!! If you diaper heads don't like it,,,tough crap!!! Go back to wherever you came from and never ever come back!! I say F you all and F whoever agreed to bend over and kiss there asses!!! And no,,I don't apologize for being racist,,,,I'm pissed!!!



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


hey Charles!
I am still waiting for your questions about the video, i hope you'l not be shy to ask and i hope i didnt just miss it in the more than 13 pages of mostly vague posts with demands for answers and assumptions built on them to sooth wishful thinking. Ok, i'l stop and let you ask, hope you actually watched the video..



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:57 PM
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edit on 7-6-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)




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