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Yes. Fluoride is toxic in high concentrations, be it natural or otherwise. That's why natural fluoride is removed when levels are too high.
the fluoride itself ,is toxic ,which I showed ,is nothing like ground water fluoride
But you were so positive about it. "All" is pretty different from "some" or even "most". You said everyone's water is fluoridated. That's not really the case at all, is it?
I don't memorize the numbers
Originally posted by PtolemyII
Originally posted by Grimpachi
This is just my take on that.
It becomes practically impossible for me to believe subsequent claims when
Water in the USA ,was fluoridated in 1945 .Everywhere
And
Over 2/3rds of the country was flurodated by the 1950s
are being presented as even remotely equal in accuracy.
Sorry but there is only so much BS I can filter through in a day and this is the limit for me.
I will check this thread tomorrow.
Uh ,its the dates that matter in this instance,for sure .
Some person looking at it ,from Australia ,on wiki,knows more than an american citizen who grew up on fluoridated water ,as did most of their friends who grew up here,who are now in their 50s and 60s .
Ask people ,over 50 ,who grew up in the usa ,was your water fluoridated when you were a kid.
And the issue at hand is not when,but now it IS everyone getting it,and its toxic ,and we were being lied to about it.
But yeah yeah ,everything I'm saying is wrong because the wiki says the dates are this this and this .
Go with that .
Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by Philippines
Do you think they are mining villiaumite for use in drinking water?
Nope, ridiculous.
Or perhaps it (sodium fluoride) could be a product of another chemical process, which is sold for money to go to drinking water?
Right, a chemical process, not a waste product as some suggest.
The only reason I showed the villiaumite link was to educate people that sodium fluoride IS a naturally occurring substance, even though it is rare.
So the natural form of NaF (villiaumite) is toxic to humans and should be handled with care. Meanwhile, the drinking water form of NaF (sodium fluoride) -- is safe?
It makes no sense!!
As I stated above, the majority of people have no idea what is going into the water treatment process nor do they understand that in small quantities some chemicals may be beneficial. You eat salt. Try eating a pound of it. Get it?
Toxicity to Animals: WARNING: THE LC50 VALUES HEREUNDER ARE ESTIMATED ON THE BASIS OF A 4-HOUR EXPOSURE. Acute oral toxicity (LD50): 3000 mg/kg [Rat.]. Acute dermal toxicity (LD50): >10000 mg/kg [Rabbit]. Acute toxicity of the dust (LC50): >42000 mg/m3 1 hours [Rat]. Chronic Effects on Humans: MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/ or yeast. Other Toxic Effects on Humans: Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals: Lowest Published Lethal Dose (LDL) [Man] - Route: Oral; Dose: 1000 mg/kg
Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans:
Causes adverse reproductive effects in humans (fetotoxicity, abortion, ) by intraplacental route. High intake of sodium chloride, whether from occupational exposure or in the diet, may increase risk of TOXEMIA OF PREGNANCY in susceptible women (Bishop, 1978)
Chronic Effects on Humans: CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: A4 (Not classifiable for human or animal.) by ACGIH, 3 (Not classifiable for human.) by IARC. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast. May cause damage to the following organs: kidneys, lungs, the nervous system, heart, gastrointestinal tract, cardiovascular system, bones, teeth. Other Toxic Effects on Humans: Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (corrosive), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive). Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals: Lowest Published Lethal Dose: LDL [Human] - Route: Oral; Dose: 71 mg/kg LDL [Woman] - Route: Oral; Dose: 90 mg/kg LDL [Woman] - Route: Oral; Dose: 360 mg/kg LDL [Mouse] - Route: Skinl; Dose: 300 mg/kg Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans: May cause adverse reproductive effects (fertililty, fetoxicity), and birth defects based on animal data. May cause cancer based on animal data. May cause genetic (mutagenic) and tumorigenic effects.
The dose doesn't matter at all? How about CaF, the "natural" form.
After looking at that info, my advice is to not ingest NaF,
Chronic Effects on Humans:
DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Classified Development toxin [POSSIBLE]. May cause damage to the following organs: blood, kidneys, lungs, liver, cardiovascular system, skin, bones, central nervous system (CNS), teeth. Other Toxic Effects on Humans: Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals: Not available. Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans: May affect genetic material (mutagenic). May cause adverse reproductive effects and birth defects (teratogenic) based on animal test data
Special Remarks on other Toxic Effects on Humans: Acute Potential Health Effects: Skin: May cause skin irritation. Eyes: May cause eye irritation. Inhalation: Causes respiratory tract irritation. Ingestion: May cause gastrointestinal irritaiton with nausea, vomiting and diarrhea, salivation, thirst, abdominal pain, fever, labored breathing (respiratory depression, apnea, dyspnea). Exposure to fluorides may also cause disturbed color vision, hypocalcemia, hyperkalemia, and hypomagnesemia, and may result in systemic toxic effects on the heart/
cardiovascular system (hypotension, tachycardia, arrhythmia, weak pulse, cardiovascular collapse), liver (hepatic enzymes increased), and kidneys (abnormal renal function, renal damage). It may also affect behavior/Central Nervous System (CNS) depression - headache, dizziness, weakness, somnolence, ataxia, loss of conciousness). Other neurological symptoms of acute fluoride ingestion may include muscle weakness, difficulty speaking, fitfulness(hyperreflexia), tetany, numbness or tingling of the extremities. Chronic Potential Health Effects: Skin: Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis. Inhalation: Prolonged or repeated inhalation may cause bronchitis, asmtha, silicosis, increase in respiratory infections,
pulmonary lesions. Ingestion: Prolonged or repeated ingestion cause diseases of the blood, teeth, bones and other organs (osteosclerosis, fluorosis). (Fluorisis is characterized by vomiting, diarrhea or constipation, weakness joint stiffness, loss of appetite, anemia)
Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by Philippines
My point was(sorry I didn't make it clear enough) was that anything in large doses is harmful. People have died from drinking too much water. People eat salt all the time, hell we need it to live, but, if you eat too much you die. Should we ban salt as well?
All I am saying, and have been saying is that there needs to be more research done on this.
Potential Chronic Health Effects: CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: A4 (Not classifiable for human or animal.) by ACGIH, 3 (Not classifiable for human.) by IARC. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The substance may be toxic to kidneys, lungs, the nervous system, heart, gastrointestinal tract, cardiovascular system, bones, teeth. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated exposure to a highly toxic material may produce general deterioration of health by an accumulation in one or many human organs.
Potential Chronic Health Effects: CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. Repeated or prolonged exposure is not known to aggravate medical condition.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Philippines
The dose doesn't matter at all? How about CaF, the "natural" form.
After looking at that info, my advice is to not ingest NaF,
Chronic Effects on Humans:
DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Classified Development toxin [POSSIBLE]. May cause damage to the following organs: blood, kidneys, lungs, liver, cardiovascular system, skin, bones, central nervous system (CNS), teeth. Other Toxic Effects on Humans: Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals: Not available. Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans: May affect genetic material (mutagenic). May cause adverse reproductive effects and birth defects (teratogenic) based on animal test data
www.sciencelab.com...
I guess the "natural" kind is OK. At least, those who are against artificial fluoridation seem to think so.
Or maybe at low concentrations neither one is harmful at all.
Who knows at this point. Maybe it's my spring water dumbing me down because the stuff is in it =D
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Philippines
Or maybe at low concentrations neither one is harmful at all.
Who knows at this point. Maybe it's my spring water dumbing me down because the stuff is in it =D
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Philippines
Or maybe at low concentrations neither one is harmful at all.
Who knows at this point. Maybe it's my spring water dumbing me down because the stuff is in it =D
Prolonged or repeated ingestion cause diseases of the blood, teeth, bones and other organs (osteosclerosis, fluorosis). (Fluorisis is characterized by vomiting, diarrhea or constipation, weakness joint stiffness, loss of appetite, anemia).
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Philippines
Those would be symptoms of extreme fluorosis. Receiving a high concentration over and extended period. Something that might be encountered by someone with high levels of natural fluoride in their drinking water.
In the US the EPA has set the maximum allowed concentration at 4.0 mg/l. Concentrations this high only occur from natural sources. Artificially fluoridated water is typically brought up to 1.5-1.8 mg/l.
It should be noted that the EPA is reviewing that standard and may lower it.edit on 6/9/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)
After reviewing the collective evidence, including studies conducted since the early 1990s, the committee concluded unanimously that the present MCLG of 4 mg/L for fluoride should be lowered. Exposure at the MCLG clearly puts children at risk of developing severe enamel fluorosis, a condition that is associated with enamel loss and pitting. In addition, the majority of the committee concluded that the MCLG is not likely to be protective against bone fractures. The basis for these conclusions is expanded upon below.
Musculoskeletal Effects
Concerns about fluoride’s effects on the musculoskeletal system historically have been and continue to be focused on skeletal fluorosis and bone fracture. Fluoride is readily incorporated into the crystalline structure of bone and will accumulate over time.
Endocrine Effects
The chief endocrine effects of fluoride exposures in experimental animals and in humans include decreased thyroid function, increased calcitonin activity, increased parathyroid hormone activity, secondary hyperparathyroidism, impaired glucose tolerance, and possible effects on timing of sexual maturity. Some of these effects are associated with fluoride intake that is achievable at fluoride concentrations in drinking water of 4 mg/L or less, especially for young children or for individuals with high water intake.
Maximum-Contaminant-Level Goal
In light of the collective evidence on various health end points and total exposure to fluoride, the committee concludes that EPA’s MCLG of 4 mg/L should be lowered. Lowering the MCLG will prevent children from developing severe enamel fluorosis and will reduce the lifetime accumulation of fluoride into bone that the majority of the committee concludes is likely to put individuals at increased risk of bone fracture and possibly skeletal fluorosis, which are particular concerns for subpopulations that are prone to accumulating fluoride in their bones.
Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by Philippines
It was just an analogous comparison, it wasn't meant to be a direct correlation between the two.
Originally posted by Philippines
Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by Philippines
It was just an analogous comparison, it wasn't meant to be a direct correlation between the two.
I understand, thanks for your participation =)
What I question is what else is in the tap water besides fluoride? Perhaps it is the distraction?