If your city is on "lock-down", do NOT look outside.

reply to post by neformore


So did they bring out the military all the time or did the police handle it?

UK does not have DHS which is a gross violation of the constitution either.

Martial Law(although not officially declared in boston) has very few fans and should be reserved for special times when it is truely needed. It seems pretty apparent to me, and others who have real world experience, that the federal government PRACTICED IT for reasons of their own.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by MrxMulder
We live in a sad day and age.

Willing to bet that photo came from a kid holding an iPhone.

The insert-derogatory-term-here obviously had enough time to identify who was standing in the window... yet still felt it was necessary to keep a crosshair on them. Cops and their constant hunger for power/an ego trip make me sick to my stomach.

Im sorry, but this is nothing but baseless conjecture on your part.

Like I have said from the start, without context, all you guys are doing is screaming at the wall. You have no way of knowing the actions of either the photographer or the subject of the picture before or after the instant this photo was snapped.

For all any of us know, that person could not even be aiming at the photographer. He could very possibly have been doing a 180 degree visibility check, and the photog got a well timed pic. Heck, for all we know, the photog was in the window signalling to the subject to show off his weapon.

The point being, WE DO NOT KNOW.

Its amazing to me how willing and ready people are to jump to conclusions.

Most of us making these "baseless conjectures" have most likely dealt with these "positions of power" before... if so, I don't think it'd be too far fetched for one to point a rifle at a 12 year old girl (or whoever was holding the camera).

YouTube is flooded with police brutality. Hell, the Boston bombing suspect was clearly able to get out of the boat on his own, and then left in an ambulance. Gee, I wonder how that happened?

Remember Dorner? How did they get him out? They burned him out Waco style... Hundreds of cops at the scene for ONE man... That whole charade almost got two innocent WOMEN shot up by the trigger happy LAPD -- well actually it did, but thankfully the back of their truck was loaded with newspapers to stop the bullets.

So again, ask yourself... HMMMM... WHERE ARE WE GETTING THESE "BASELESS CONJECTURES" FROM? HMMMMM..... Knock, knock... is there anything in there?

10,000 police/military and an entire infrastructure shut down... and a civilian found the suspect. THIS is where YOUR tax dollars are going! Unless of course you're one of them, which wouldn't be too surprising to be completely honest, captain.

Originally posted by neformore
Because I've LIVED through this kind of thing. On a regualr basis. For the first 30 years of my life.

That is unfortunate - that explains your fear and feeling of personal helplessness and the need to surrender your freedom to the authorities in exchange for the feeling of comfort and security.

Originally posted by neformore
And because I've worked in those environments, with the people who have to deal with it.

I had the opportunity to train with the HUMINT (Human Intelligence) folks at J Company out of Chicksands along with an exchange with the SAS as an officer in their R2I program. I worked with many men (and women) who were very senior NCOs with extensive experience in Northern Ireland. The US military sent me there for one reason and one reason only - there is no one better at HUMINT than British MI, especially those who worked in N. Ireland. I was to take all these TTP (Tactics Techniques and Procedures) back and integrate them into a training plan for our ASOT (Advanced Special Operations Techniques) course in the US along with our SERE (Survival, Escape, Evasion and Resistance) course syllabus.

I can assure you that these very well trained men and women would not advocate a hard search for one suspect - period. It inflames the population and makes enemies of people who otherwise would not have gotten involved by taking their dignity and challenges their perception of safety. Especially in a hot theater of operation.

They know that while there is a time and a place for a hard search (a military style cordon and search operation) the circumstances and the window of opportunity for such actions are finite and limited.

I do not know an SAS operator who (downrange in theater) would advocate targeting civilians with their weapons unless they were an identified threat. The SAS are better than, more exclusive and more professional than US special forces - I am a lifetime member of American SF and have no problem making that assessment. One simply doesn't scan a sector of fire for a threat by scoping windows - period. I don't know why it would be acceptable in a law enforecement scenario.

I am not a British subject and therefore no expert on the culture but in my couple of years there working with their agents, operatives and soldiers I learned one thing for sure while out and about mixing with the population.

The concept of individual freedom and personal liberty are very different for Americans than the British. Even the SAS blokes thought it odd I always went everywhere armed while in America.

Then again a good number of them wished that they could do the same in the UK for obvious reasons. They make enemies and their faces are known by some really bad people - they have little confidence in the constables’ ability to protect them.

You think nothing of a camera on every street corner and not being allowed to own (in most cases) and especially to carry a firearm. Americans think that is very concerning. I think it wise to just accept there are cultural differences that don't translate well in this scenario.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
For all any of us know, that person could not even be aiming at the photographer.

It is clear to me they are making eye contact - if it were closing time at a bar they'd be exchanging numbers...

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
He could very possibly have been doing a 180 degree visibility check, and the photog got a well timed pic.

Again, I will point out that if this is the case it is evidence the "agent" in the turret is poorly trained and perhaps in need of a eye examination as based on the layout of the opposite side of the street one can reasonably estimate the distance from between the "agent" and the window to be about 50-75'.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Heck, for all we know, the photog was in the window signalling to the subject to show off his weapon.

While I suppose this is possible it is highly unlikely that someone would ask for a weapon to be pointed at them...

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Its amazing to me how willing and ready people are to jump to conclusions.

It is amazing to me that so many are willing to give this obviously poor trained, poorly disciplined "agent" the benefit of a doubt. He has no reason what so ever to be flashing civilians. Snap-fire at 50-75' is easy its point and shoot no aiming really necessary at that range as there is no bullet drop as long as the barrel is lined up with the target you will hit. Targets are not ID'd with a scope at that range... I could see if he was in a sniper position and scoping targets at 400m (+) but then again in that situation the people being scoped have no idea they are and therefore it is not provocative in nature...

In 24 years of Special Operations, Infantry and Military Intelligence training for all kinds of scenarios I have never seen or heard of any course or technique that advocates scanning one's sector down the barrel or through the scope (especially at such close range).

This guy is wrong - there is no other way to put it... If he were one of my soldiers I'd have given him a verbal warning and reprimand. If it happened again he'd be relegated to duties inside the wire. Things like that being down the wrath of the locals on us all.

reply to post by MrxMulder

Most of us making these "baseless conjectures" have most likely dealt with these "positions of power" before... if so, I don't think it'd be too far fetched for one to point a rifle at a 12 year old girl (or whoever was holding the camera).

So, your defense of baseless conjecture is more baseless conjecture? Truly, I am astonished.

YouTube is flooded with police brutality. Hell, the Boston bombing suspect was clearly able to get out of the boat on his own, and then left in an ambulance. Gee, I wonder how that happened?

Youtube is flooded with a lot of things that arent relevant here.

Remember Dorner? How did they get him out? They burned him out Waco style... Hundreds of cops at the scene for ONE man... That whole charade almost got two innocent WOMEN shot up by the trigger happy LAPD -- well actually it did, but thankfully the back of their truck was loaded with newspapers to stop the bullets.

Sure do. Whats your point? How is that relevant to this picture?

So again, ask yourself... HMMMM... WHERE ARE WE GETTING THESE "BASELESS CONJECTURES" FROM? HMMMMM..... Knock, knock... is there anything in there?

I know where they come from. That doesnt make them any less baseless. Unless you can tell me, like I said before, the actions taken immediately prior to this photo, and immediately after.

10,000 police/military and an entire infrastructure shut down... and a civilian found the suspect. THIS is where YOUR tax dollars are going! Unless of course you're one of them, which wouldn't be too surprising to be completely honest, captain.

Oh goody, another person who has nothing but silly "you're a shill" comments. Congratulations. You are the millionth poster to use such juvenile tactics.

Ive said all along that I dont agree with the reaction in boston. Maybe you missed it, but thats not what I am talking about. I am talking about this picture, you know, the subject of the OP....

reply to post by Golf66

It is clear to me they are making eye contact - if it were closing time at a bar they'd be exchanging numbers...

In your opinion. And I am prone to agree. But it is not know as a fact, which is the point.

While I suppose this is possible it is highly unlikely that someone would ask for a weapon to be pointed at them...

Agreed, but can anyone say definitively that this did not happen? Again, THIS is my point, and has been all along.

It is amazing to me that so many are willing to give this obviously poor trained, poorly disciplined "agent" the benefit of a doubt. He has no reason what so ever to be flashing civilians. Snap-fire at 50-75' is easy its point and shoot no aiming really necessary at that range as there is no bullet drop as long as the barrel is lined up with the target you will hit. Targets are not ID'd with a scope at that range... I could see if he was in a sniper position and scoping targets at 400m (+) but then again in that situation the people being scoped have no idea they are and therefore it is not provocative in nature...

Thats the thing though. I am not giving him the benefit of a doubt, either way. I am stating flat out, that we do not know, period. Perhaps he was aiming at a civilian. Perhaps he was showing off. Perhaps he really thought, for a moment, that there was a real thread. WE DONT KNOW.

In 24 years of Special Operations, Infantry and Military Intelligence training for all kinds of scenarios I have never seen or heard of any course or technique that advocates scanning one's sector down the barrel or through the scope (especially at such close range).

Fair enough. But if we are too believe that he lacks the training and discipline to not use his scope for spotting, or to point at a civilian, why would we believe he is well trained enough to not scan with his weapon? Again, there are just too many unknowns.

This guy is wrong - there is no other way to put it... If he were one of my soldiers I'd have given him a verbal warning and reprimand. If it happened again he'd be relegated to duties inside the wire. Things like that being down the wrath of the locals on us all.

And, like I said before, I applaud you for your apparent quality of leadership. It is good to know that there are some of you out there.

Whats to say, though, that this person didnt get reprimanded? Or immediately pulled off the street?

These unknowns are what makes me think it wise to take a step back and a deep breath. Unfortunately, some people lack that ability (not speaking of you).

Originally posted by gladtobehere
Its too dangerous...

I apologize if this image has already been posted though even if it has, its probably worth a second look.

When I first saw it, I was at a loss for words.

Clearly, the photographer was using his camera, was that his crime, taking a pic?

Is the threat of lethal force appropriate for taking a picture?

There are a variety of suppositions and hypotheticals that we can discuss here but irregardless, IMHO "America" is heading down a very disturbing path...

edit on 27-4-2013 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)

edit on 4/29/2013 by Majic because: minor spelling correction in title

One thing that people don't know and might not know about this picture is that the homeowner called the police to come and investigate their house because they suspected he had gone in an opened basement window. If I was part of this tactical team who was called because the home owner was under the impression that a terrorist was in their home, I would be just as vigilant.


As someone else pointed out, this is also a still frame grabbed from a video. The agent (whatever agency he works for) could have been doing a number of thing including panning around searching for movement.

You are jumping to huge conclusions here..

reply to post by DoubleDNH


Look at that! Some context!

Thank you so much for adding that.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by DoubleDNH

 

Look at that! Some context!

Thank you so much for adding that.

I live about 30-40 minutes outside of Watertown where this was taking place and listened to everything that was available to us all day.. including the unedited police scanners.

Funny (kind of) story which never made the news outlets is that the poor local restaurant who did the catering for the police departments and other agencies almost got their asses handed to them. They rode in without identifying themselves into the command post area and all you heard on the scanner was someone screaming "STAND DOWN... STAND DOWN DAMNIT.... IT IS JUST LUNCH!"

reply to post by DoubleDNH


Sure would make sense, then, why they were even more on guard, and concerned with any movement in the area. Again, thank you for adding context

10,000 police/military and an entire infrastructure shut down... and a civilian found the suspect. THIS is where YOUR tax dollars are going! Unless of course you're one of them, which wouldn't be too surprising to be completely honest, captain.

Oh goody, another person who has nothing but silly "you're a shill" comments. Congratulations. You are the millionth poster to use such juvenile tactics.

Ive said all along that I dont the reaction in boston. Maybe you missed it, but thats not what I am talking about. I am talking about this picture, you know, the subject of the OP....

I don't even know how to reply to someone who intentionally tries to limit the scope of this enormous failure by playing the off-topic card whenever it suits them, other than say it is classic divide and conquer madness.

The big picture(covertly practing martial law under the guise of two patsies) is infinitely more important than some undisciplined DHS stooge terrorising the neighborhood with his scope and gun. Someone said before they have binoculars for that reason.

If you think it was failure, then why the hell do you constantly make excuses for everything

reply to post by DoubleDNH

One thing that people don't know and might not know about this picture is that the homeowner called the police to come and investigate their house because they suspected he had gone in an opened basement window.

AND...
I still don't know it.

Got a link? I would believe it after I see some verification, and I thank you in advance.

I won't be like some people and just eat it up (context ) because some poster says so.
We have also been told multiple times that this is a photoshopped image, so we need to verify, that's all.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by MrxMulder

 

Most of us making these "baseless conjectures" have most likely dealt with these "positions of power" before... if so, I don't think it'd be too far fetched for one to point a rifle at a 12 year old girl (or whoever was holding the camera).

So, your defense of baseless conjecture is more baseless conjecture? Truly, I am astonished.

YouTube is flooded with police brutality. Hell, the Boston bombing suspect was clearly able to get out of the boat on his own, and then left in an ambulance. Gee, I wonder how that happened?

Youtube is flooded with a lot of things that arent relevant here.

Remember Dorner? How did they get him out? They burned him out Waco style... Hundreds of cops at the scene for ONE man... That whole charade almost got two innocent WOMEN shot up by the trigger happy LAPD -- well actually it did, but thankfully the back of their truck was loaded with newspapers to stop the bullets.

Sure do. Whats your point? How is that relevant to this picture?

So again, ask yourself... HMMMM... WHERE ARE WE GETTING THESE "BASELESS CONJECTURES" FROM? HMMMMM..... Knock, knock... is there anything in there?

I know where they come from. That doesnt make them any less baseless. Unless you can tell me, like I said before, the actions taken immediately prior to this photo, and immediately after.

10,000 police/military and an entire infrastructure shut down... and a civilian found the suspect. THIS is where YOUR tax dollars are going! Unless of course you're one of them, which wouldn't be too surprising to be completely honest, captain.

Oh goody, another person who has nothing but silly "you're a shill" comments. Congratulations. You are the millionth poster to use such juvenile tactics.

Ive said all along that I dont the reaction in boston. Maybe you missed it, but thats not what I am talking about. I am talking about this picture, you know, the subject of the OP....

"So, your defense of baseless conjecture is more baseless conjecture? Truly, I am astonished. "

How is it baseless if I'm basing my assumptions on previous events?

Something tells you've grown up needing everything spoon-fed to you, so here you go, try and wrap your brain around it... My point is that the police (ones we pay with tax dollars) have shown nothing but incompetence in the past, so the fact that this "well trained" pig needs to point his gun at someone holding a camera... doesn't surprise me. Was that really too hard for you to comprehend?

"Youtube is flooded with a lot of things that arent relevant here."

And your point with that exactly? Ok, instead of deflecting, can you address the videos that ARE relevant here? Or will you choose to ignore them and pawn them off as "baseless"? So far, everything that you have stated in defense of this cop seems to be baseless.

I didn't even say shill, that's something you mentioned/put in my mouth. Funny.

Were you one of the those dweebs praising your rights being stripped from you as all those "brave" policemen/military that stormed your streets left in their humvees? Yay for a military state! Yay for rifles being needlessly aimed at me! You remind of the jews when they cheered on the SS as they were being shipped off to camps in trains... Clueless.

Either that or you're butthurt that one of your fellow comrades is being slammed for his incompetence.

10,000 police/military and an entire infrastructure shut down... and a civilian found the suspect. THIS is where YOUR tax dollars are going! Unless of course you're one of them, which wouldn't be too surprising to be completely honest, captain.

Oh goody, another person who has nothing but silly "you're a shill" comments. Congratulations. You are the millionth poster to use such juvenile tactics.

Ive said all along that I dont the reaction in boston. Maybe you missed it, but thats not what I am talking about. I am talking about this picture, you know, the subject of the OP....

I don't even know how to reply to someone who intentionally tries to limit the scope of this enormous failure by playing the off-topic card whenever it suits them, other than say it is classic divide and conquer madness.

The big picture(covertly practing martial law under the guise of two "terrorists") is infinitely more important than some undisciplined DHS stooge terrorising the neighborhood with his scope and gun. Someone said before they have binoculars for that reason.

If you think it was a failure, then why the hell do you constantly make excuses for everything

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


The British Army and SAS were operational in Northern Ireland on a daily basis.

SO1 and SO14 routinely use placed snipers and concealed units when on operation.

MI6 deploy and use armed personnel on counter terrorism operations.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by DoubleDNH

 

One thing that people don't know and might not know about this picture is that the homeowner called the police to come and investigate their house because they suspected he had gone in an opened basement window.

AND...
I still don't know it.

Got a link? I would believe it after I see some verification, and I thank you in advance.

I won't be like some people and just eat it up (context

) because some poster says so.
We have also been told multiple times that this is a photoshopped image, so we need to verify, that's all.

edit on 29-4-2013 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)

I cannot provide the link you want but I will look more when I am out of work. I was listening to my scanner at the time. I did a quick google search to see if someone had a recording of the scanner requesting the police come to investigate the home but all it turned up was posts similar to this OP. The news media caught wind of this video and has never taken the time to try and provide some context to it... all they scream is how the family was ripped out of their house .. yada yada yada... I heard directly from the scanner that they were investigating at the family's request due to a door/window that should have been closed.

I am not a government schill... but I would probably say I wasn't even if I was lol.. just wanted to put this picture into perspective.

Cheers.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

I don't even know how to reply to someone who intentionally tries to limit the scope of this enormous failure by playing the off-topic card whenever it suits them, other than say it is classic divide and conquer madness.

Where have I played the 'off topic' card, outside of the many, many personal attacks on this thread? You are trying to apply what I have said to things that it doesnt apply to. my responses are based on the OP, that is, this pic. I am not saying you are off topic, I am saying you are either intentionally or unintentionally trying to apply what I have said to things that I have said nothing about in this thread.

The big picture(covertly practing martial law under the guise of two patsies) is infinitely more important than some undisciplined DHS stooge terrorising the neighborhood with his scope and gun. Someone said before they have binoculars for that reason.

'Practicing martial law'. Source, please?

If you think it was a failure, then why the hell do you constantly make excuses for everything

Stating that it is a fact that we do not have context for this picture is making excuses? Funny, to most people, thats called being rational.

Again, I have the ability to see things in other shades than black and white. Which is where most of the REAL WORLD lies.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by gladtobehere

 

Originally posted by gladtobehere
Clearly, the photographer was using his camera, was that his crime, taking a pic?

No one said there was a crime. Was the photographer arrested?

Your title is actually very good advice. If your town is on lock-down and there's a military presence in the street outside your house, it's a REALLY good idea to stay away from the doors and windows. Any movement under these circumstances is going to attract the powerful end of a weapon. It's common sense. They were looking for an armed and dangerous man. Don't give them any reason to think you might be him.

That's right, people. Learn to accept and respect the men with guns going through your streets.

Learn to accept and expect that you have no normal rights as long as there is a Dangerous Terrorist on the loose!

Learn to love your protectors, even when in lock down and unable to look out your window without having guns pointed at you.

Anything else makes you a Potential Terrorist Threat.


If you don't completely love and accept this-- why that probably makes you unamerican, and unpatriotic.

reply to post by DoubleDNH

I am not a government schill... but I would probably say I wasn't even if I was lol.. just wanted to put this picture into perspective.

Nor did I think for a moment that your are.


I appreciate that someone that lives nearby can add some context...
But this is the internet, after all, so we welcome your return with some confirmation.
Thanks.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
'Practicing martial law'. Source, please?

Have you been living under a #ing rock these past few weeks?