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If your city is on "lock-down", do NOT look outside.

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posted on Apr, 28 2013 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by Danbones
Funny, he can point a gun at you, but you can NOT point a gun at him...


Oh but you can salute him with your middle finger. I can assure you that they wouldn't be pointing a gun at me. It is one thing to ask to search my house during those trying times. And I likely would have let them. But if they would have crossed the line with me, they wouldn't be allowed to step one foot on my property,




posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by inverslyproportional

Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by 3mperorConstantinE
reply to post by Bone75
 


71 bombs or 115 Pressure Cookers.


Or skip all of the damn multi-million dollar nonsense of shutting down a metro city, and just get 10 agents with 1 or 2 tracking dogs (they had Suspect #2's scent by then) and go find him. If the trail leads to a house.
Then raid the ONE house.


Ironically, if the guy in the photo had been just 1 of 10 federal agents deployed, we'd still be having the same conversation.


Yes because they were still pointing weapons at innocent civies, for no reason, other than to stroke their own egos.

Simple solution, for all your police, or wannabes out there.

If you wanna dress like a soldier, ride in a soldiers vehicle, and carry a soldiers weapons, and try to use a soldiers tactics, there is a place for that, I believe it is called the military...........

Oh that's right, most of these douches weren't good enough to serve, because soldiers aren't the types that fail tactical training, and put their own safety above all others.

I am quoting the Army values here

L oyaly
D uty
R espect
S elfless service
H onor
I ntegrity
P ersonal courage

LDRSHIP, I didn't see my personal safety being a top priority anywhere in there, I might have missed it, could you point it out for me?

I guess I could quote the oath next, though I don't think it would be any more of a help to your side of the conversation.

Epic.
Well said brother....well said...
"I serve the people of the United States, and live the Army Values."



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by MuzzleBreak
 
a few years ago, in Washington State, early 90s? a man was found guilty of poaching. He had scoped a deer that looked funny from his vehicle on the road. It was a set up by fish and game service. It was a plastic deer. So where is fish and game in this picture? The guy in the tank was definitely poaching.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by inverslyproportional

Yes because they were still pointing weapons at innocent civies, for no reason, other than to stroke their own egos.


If that were the case, I would be on your side of the argument, but its not, so I'm not. How many times do I have to point out that he was pointing his weapon at a possible threat in a second story window of an area being secured by his team?



I am quoting the Army values here

L oyaly
D uty
R espect
S elfless service
H onor
I ntegrity
P ersonal courage

LDRSHIP, I didn't see my personal safety being a top priority anywhere in there, I might have missed it, could you point it out for me?


What you are completely (and tactfully) overlooking is the fact that there were 12 other people in the photo who's lives were in his hands. Where's this concern for "personal safety" you keep referring to? And how did this man violate even 1 of those values?

By the way, you should lose the attitude.


edit on 28-4-2013 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)


HE IS NOT IN HOSTILE TERRITORY!!!!

HE IS NOT IN A WARZONE!!!!

He is in suburbia, there is not a threat behind every door, there is not a threat behind every curtain.

This is the exact opposite of the attitude one is supposed to have, his concern is supposed to be those same people he is pointing a loaded weapon at.

Not himself, not his team, those civies he is threatening the lives of are supposed to be his priority, along with taking a dangerous person off the street, thus protecting them.

Does a good security guard point his weapon at his charge? Um no, that si kinda against the entire point of security.

How does pointing his weapon at civies protecting a single one of them? It is in fact threatening their very lives, the exact opposite of protection.

Law enforcement doesn't exist so they can protect themselves, they exist to protect the people, by arresting, and or facing threats to the general public, not to threaten them all enmass with lethal force, for the sake of protecting his buddies, from an imagines threat, that didn't even exist.

I know, they should have just arrested everyone, and sorted the guy they were looking for out later, because that is the same thing.

There was one threat in the entire city, there were millions of nonthreats, so why would you act like everyone is a threat until they are proven not to be?

Does one assume every car is a drunk driver, just because there is likely one out there somewhere? No of course not.
Just forget it, I am not going to continue wasting by time, you have obviously made up your mind, enjoy the police state, because that is what your advocating, treating everyone like they are criminals until proven to be otherwise.

Your what some would call a lost cause, I would call you something a lot less pleasant.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by flexy123

Originally posted by gladtobehere
Clearly, the photographer was using his camera, was that his crime, taking a pic?


No, it was no "crime", but incredible, incredible DUMB to go to the window and shoot a picture if you KNOW there is a SWAT and snipers outside.

Those people are mentally dealing with the likelihood there could be a gunman in ANY of those houses and the likelihood they can be shot at any moment.

Going to the window and pointing a camera at them...DUMB BEYOND COMPREHENSION.


I'm considering starting a few more accounts just to give you a few more stars for that one.


BTW mods I'm just kidding.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by Arnie123

Originally posted by inverslyproportional

Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by 3mperorConstantinE
reply to post by Bone75
 


71 bombs or 115 Pressure Cookers.


Or skip all of the damn multi-million dollar nonsense of shutting down a metro city, and just get 10 agents with 1 or 2 tracking dogs (they had Suspect #2's scent by then) and go find him. If the trail leads to a house.
Then raid the ONE house.


Ironically, if the guy in the photo had been just 1 of 10 federal agents deployed, we'd still be having the same conversation.


Yes because they were still pointing weapons at innocent civies, for no reason, other than to stroke their own egos.

Simple solution, for all your police, or wannabes out there.

If you wanna dress like a soldier, ride in a soldiers vehicle, and carry a soldiers weapons, and try to use a soldiers tactics, there is a place for that, I believe it is called the military...........

Oh that's right, most of these douches weren't good enough to serve, because soldiers aren't the types that fail tactical training, and put their own safety above all others.

I am quoting the Army values here

L oyaly
D uty
R espect
S elfless service
H onor
I ntegrity
P ersonal courage

LDRSHIP, I didn't see my personal safety being a top priority anywhere in there, I might have missed it, could you point it out for me?

I guess I could quote the oath next, though I don't think it would be any more of a help to your side of the conversation.

Epic.
Well said brother....well said...
"I serve the people of the United States, and live the Army Values."


Thank you brother, glad to see my point wasn't lost.

I guess some of these crazy civies will never get it, I just cant understand their mindset at all.

I am in America, they are in Germany before the night of the long knives, celebrating how their furer is protecting them.... right before the actual SHTF...I am just at a loss...I cant believe people don't recognize this for what it is.

"Don't run, you will just die tired!" "Steel rain" 13-E right here, and everyone knows artillery guys do it with a bigger bang, and the gun line gets laid every morning in the field



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 12:32 AM
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Originally posted by inverslyproportional

HE IS NOT IN HOSTILE TERRITORY!!!!

HE IS NOT IN A WARZONE!!!!

He is in suburbia, there is not a threat behind every door, there is not a threat behind every curtain.


He was led to the area by a man that just blew up a bunch of people, ran over his brother, and allegedly tossed explosives out the window of a hijacked car. How was he to know they weren't lured into a controlled environment where more bombs and shooters were waiting to ambush them?


Your what some would call a lost cause, I would call you something a lot less pleasant.


You can call me whatever you like at your own discretion. I'm sure I can come up with an appropriate response. A quick review of my post history will show you that I'm probably one of the most objective observers you'll ever have the privelage of coming in contact with and you're simply being a closed-minded jerk.

edit on 29-4-2013 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 12:48 AM
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Originally posted by inverslyproportional

HE IS NOT IN HOSTILE TERRITORY!!!!

HE IS NOT IN A WARZONE!!!!

He is in suburbia, there is not a threat behind every door, there is not a threat behind every curtain.


You're trying to play by a rulebook here. In this situation there really isn't one.

When you're dealing with terrorism in an urban environment, there IS a threat behind every door and every curtain because you do not know what you are dealing with because if there wasn't a threat in the first place there wouldn't have been four people killed and hundres of people injured

I get you were a soldier. I really do, but you simply aren't thinking this through. Terrorists don't play by the rule books, especially not in urban areas. Anything is cover, and any targets of opportunity are fair game.

And if you don't believe me, ask the RUC, anyone who served in Northern Ireland in British Army and the SAS and/or SO19 about it, and anyone who has worked on CTA



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
You're trying to play by a rulebook here. In this situation there really isn't one.

When you're dealing with terrorism in an urban environment, there IS a threat behind every door and every curtain because you do not know what you are dealing with

reply to post by neformore
 
The Constitution is not conditional.


I get your line of propaganda, I really do.
Terrorism, terrorist, super scary, get used to it, etc...
Essentially towing the official line.

But lets look at the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of this massive military operation:

1) Suspect #1 who was ultimately unarmed never got more than .6 miles away from the point where they allegedly lost him.

2) Over 9000 law enforcement personnel could not manage to locate him on their own over the course of twelve or more hours.

Seriously - Did none of them think to deploy a bloodhound to track him?
All the while they spent 5, 10 minutes or longer in just one home alone after over a dozen officers entered - What a waste of time and resources.


Regarding these officers pointing their weapons at civilians...
Unbelievable.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 01:21 AM
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By the way I have been in comparable adverse conditions as these (arguably more dangerous than this scenario) overseas, an example: Our unit lost three soldiers to IEDs and took indirect fire from a village we were approaching to clear - 89 houses in total - We pointed our weapons at no one once we finally reached it because no one posed an immediate, identified threat, so please save the explanations/justifications for these "officers" tactics and behavior.

It's unfortunate they couldn't exercise as much professionalism and restraint towards their fellow Americans as we did towards people not even of our own country.
Let alone effective tactics.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by inverslyproportional

HE IS NOT IN HOSTILE TERRITORY!!!!

HE IS NOT IN A WARZONE!!!!

He is in suburbia, there is not a threat behind every door, there is not a threat behind every curtain.


He was led to the area by a man that just blew up a bunch of people, ran over his brother, and allegedly tossed explosives out the window of a hijacked car. How was he to know they weren't lured into a controlled environment where more bombs and shooters were waiting to ambush them?


Your what some would call a lost cause, I would call you something a lot less pleasant.


You can call me whatever you like at your own discretion. I'm sure I can come up with an appropriate response. A quick review of my post history will show you that I'm probably one of the most objective observers you'll ever have the privelage of coming in contact with and you're simply being a closed-minded jerk.

edit on 29-4-2013 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)


I would say I am more of a properly trained, and experienced authority on the use of weapons and tactics in an urban environment, that has after 2 days of trying to talk sense into some of you guys, become somewhat exhausted of your complete lack of any apparent common sense.

I doubt your are a very objective observer, as it is obvious to many of us with actual training and experience in this exact type of situation, that you know nothing of what your talking about. So your observing is in error, and of a completely unrealistic nature.

I welcome you to attempt to insult me, bring it on, I am sure I am much better at it than you are, there is a reason I have so few ATS points. I say what I think, to hell with the consequences, the truth is the truth.

Though I would caution you to do so in a PM, as this forums mod has clearly explained that personal attacks will no longer be tolerated at least 3 times I saw.

to the point of the discussion, well we will not find any middle ground, as your set on the idea that the ends justify the means, even though the means failed to accomplish their stated purpose.

They did not find the guy, even with jack booted thugs, police state tactics, and quite clear breaches of firearms safety and judgement.

It was a civie, outside smoking a cig that found this guy.

The reason all of us prior and present military personnel have been disagreeing, is that their tactics are poor, their methods are known to not work, and their sledgehammer when a razor knife is needed approach was doomed to fail from the start.

They are failures on all fronts, except for trampling rights, and treating innocent civies as criminals first, until proven innocent.

Good evening, I hope your mind is changed before you have to learn the error of your line of thinking the hard way.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Sek82
By the way I have been in comparable adverse conditions as these (arguably more dangerous than this scenario) overseas, an example: Our unit lost three soldiers to IEDs and took indirect fire from a village we were approaching to clear - 89 houses in total - We pointed our weapons at no one once we finally reached it because no one posed an immediate, identified threat, so please save the explanations/justifications for these "officers" tactics and behavior.

It's unfortunate they couldn't exercise as much professionalism and restraint towards their fellow Americans as we did towards people not even of our own country.
Let alone effective tactics.


and also justifiably in

reply to post by inverslyproportional
 



This thread has been a good demonstration of how strongly so many of us feel about preserving our country.

The true Patriots obviously get it. We're all in good company.

Those arguing for "rational" gray-scale discourse on this topic would do well to remember that there should be no shades of gray with respect to certain inalienable rights. Rights which a number of us have fought for, while you argue about ‘extremism’ and instead urge acceptance of the gradually increasing annihilation of those rights; to be followed by their subsequent erasure from your vocabulary.
 


During the impromptu celebratory chanting in Boston's public squares,
it sounded like this:


U-S-A!!!
5-6-7-8! Who do we ap-preci-ate?!
We LOVE the POLICE-state!!!


others heard this:

Sieg Heil!!!
die Kraft für die Sicherheit der Vaterlandes!!!


edit on 29-4-2013 by 3mperorConstantinE because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by inverslyproportional

HE IS NOT IN HOSTILE TERRITORY!!!!

HE IS NOT IN A WARZONE!!!!

He is in suburbia, there is not a threat behind every door, there is not a threat behind every curtain.


You're trying to play by a rulebook here. In this situation there really isn't one.

When you're dealing with terrorism in an urban environment, there IS a threat behind every door and every curtain because you do not know what you are dealing with because if there wasn't a threat in the first place there wouldn't have been four people killed and hundres of people injured

I get you were a soldier. I really do, but you simply aren't thinking this through. Terrorists don't play by the rule books, especially not in urban areas. Anything is cover, and any targets of opportunity are fair game.

And if you don't believe me, ask the RUC, anyone who served in Northern Ireland in British Army and the SAS and/or SO19 about it, and anyone who has worked on CTA





My training was for specifically this type of thing, there isn't a threat behind every door and window, there is only one threat that they knew of, and treating everyone like a potential target is what gets the wrong people killed, this is a fact.

Their primary role is to protect the populous at large, they are only worried about their safety. They should have followed the rules, and stayed on task, protecting the public, which is the entire reason for the police.

These police acted as if their sole job was to protect the police, do you not see how idiotic this line of thinking is?

They cannot protect themselves above all others, and still be protecting the public. They were protecting themselves at the expense of the public, which is flat out effed the H up!!!!

If the polices sole duty is to protect the police, I would think it obvious who we don't need around, as they are serving themselves, not the people paying their wages.

Every single person who got a gun pointed at them, had their life endangered for real, for the sake of protecting them from an imagined threat, posed in a what if, by the bomber who was doing nothing but hiding.

None of the public was actually in danger from the guy, he was wounded and scared crapless, many were actually in danger every time a weapon was pointed at them by the police.

How can you say that the bomber we know for a fact was doing nothing but hiding, was more of a danger than the police pointing guns at people, that were actually in danger, every time it happened?

This is why you don't go in all half cocked pointing guns at civies, your actually endangering people, to try to stop an imagined "what if" threat.

That is insanity, I cant believe you don't see this.

Yes yes, hindsight and all of that.

Once again though, actually endangering people for real, to protect them from an imagined threat is not the answer.

Following proper tactics is, which is where scanning your zone, and being vigilant comes into play.

They were in ballistic armor, there isn't a single crap police pistol in boston that will come close to defeating it, the police knew what he had, they supposedly had a shoot out with him.

They were responding to a imagined what if threat, " he might have had" " what if he would have" " well if he ", they should have been responding to the facts, not their imaginations.

They messed up royally, they broke protocol, they endangered many lives because of their poor discipline.

If they are this scared of a punk kid with a pistol while they are in body armor designed for war, where real weapons are used, they don't belong on any police force, they would barely be good enough to be mall cops.

I also bid you good evening, please think about the things I am saying, they are the truth of the matter, there is a reason for the tactics some of us keep talking about, it is for safety, not just of those behind the weapons, but for everyone around them as well.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by inverslyproportional

It was a civie, outside smoking a cig that found this guy.


Off-topic I know, but when i saw this i just HAD to say....

SMOKING SAVES LIVES!



Now, where can I buy the t-shirt?



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by 3mperorConstantinE

Originally posted by Sek82
By the way I have been in comparable adverse conditions as these (arguably more dangerous than this scenario) overseas, an example: Our unit lost three soldiers to IEDs and took indirect fire from a village we were approaching to clear - 89 houses in total - We pointed our weapons at no one once we finally reached it because no one posed an immediate, identified threat, so please save the explanations/justifications for these "officers" tactics and behavior.

It's unfortunate they couldn't exercise as much professionalism and restraint towards their fellow Americans as we did towards people not even of our own country.
Let alone effective tactics.


and also in

reply to post by inverslyproportional
 



This thread has been a good demonstration of how strongly so many of us feel about preserving our country.

The true patriots obviously get it. We're all in good company.

Those arguing for "rational" gray-scale discourse on this topic would do well to remember that there should be no shades of gray with respect to certain inalienable rights. Rights which a number of us have fought for, while you argue about ‘extremism’ and instead urge acceptance of the gradually increasing annihilation of those rights; to be followed by their subsequent erasure from your vocabulary.

During the impromptu celebratory chanting in Boston's public squares,
it sounded like this:
U-S-A!!! 5-6-7-8! Who do we ap-preci-ate?! We LOVE the POLICE-state!!!

others heard this:
Sieg Heil die Kraft für die Sicherheit der Vaterlandes!!!


edit on 29-4-2013 by 3mperorConstantinE because: (no reason given)


Right back at ya brother!!!!

" Group Attention! Present Arms!!! Order Arms!! Dismissed, don't forget, the mess Sergeant wants to see Privates Wiles and Coles in the D-FAC because of the Bravo Sierra they pulled last night! Everyone else, enjoy your weekend!!"



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 03:02 AM
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reply to post by gladtobehere
 


What a lot of you do not seem to understand as to what is wrong with this picture is that there are US Military members in the streets of a major US city armed and ready to fire on a US citizen. This of its self is a violation of the Constitution. The fact that the fourth admendment was also thrown out the window with the at gun point voluntary house to house search is a problem.

I would not want to give up my rights to feel safer....and you shouldn't either..



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by inverslyproportional
 


Did they know he was just hiding? No.

Did they know he was acting alone? No.

Did they know he didn't have more explosives? No.

Did you, at the time? No.

You're applying what you know now to the situation. Try applying what they knew at the time, which wasn't much, and think about it that way.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by inverslyproportional
 


Did they know he was just hiding? No.

Did they know he was acting alone? No.

Did they know he didn't have more explosives? No.

Did you, at the time? No.

You're applying what you know now to the situation. Try applying what they knew at the time, which wasn't much,





and think about it that way.




You just descibed about 90 % of all homicides.

Do you think we should have citywide lockdowns in each and every case?

Really, your criteria is what the investigators do not know. In most cases, there isn't multiple photos and video of the crime... as there was here.

It could be a stabbing in another case, we don't know if the perp has explosives or not.... he certainly could.
edit on 29-4-2013 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 04:14 AM
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There is a real "you" against "them" mentality amongst those that are to protect, and those that are to be protected. Sounds weird right, because you can play that scenario out in anyway. It should not be, there should always be a clear set mind that LEO's are to protect civilians at all times, that is what they are trained for (so we think).

If you were to really sit down and talk to a LEO, you will see that there is almost always a thought in their mind that the enemy could be anywhere, and honestly that officer should be booted from the force, not because its mean, but because that person automatically becomes unstable.

If and I mean IF anyone such as a "terrorist" or "bomber", were to actually go into someones home to hide, what do they think that civilians will do? Allow it? Not say anything? This is almost always NOT the case, if it wasnt for civilians giving leads, then there would be no solved cases.

There is almost no trust for the public anymore, for everyone video that is shown of LEO's abusing their power, there are 10 police stations that are showing the responses of those they are to protect, which of course are of angry citizens disgusted with their actions, and some making threats, and this is what is promoted in the police system, and the police state.

This was but a taste of what is to come, and yes it should scare the hell out of you, because for every cop that wonders what ifs there are civilians thinking the exact same thing.

Peace, NRE.



posted on Apr, 29 2013 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by gladtobehere
 



Originally posted by gladtobehere
Clearly, the photographer was using his camera, was that his crime, taking a pic?


No one said there was a crime. Was the photographer arrested?

Your title is actually very good advice. If your town is on lock-down and there's a military presence in the street outside your house, it's a REALLY good idea to stay away from the doors and windows. Any movement under these circumstances is going to attract the powerful end of a weapon. It's common sense. They were looking for an armed and dangerous man. Don't give them any reason to think you might be him.


Are you f_king insane!!!!!!! You goddamn right i am going to go outside and tell those goddamn idiots they are in violation of so many laws it isn't funny!!! I am a non-statutory American national, your corporate bullcrap statutes DO NOT apply to me. I am free to move about and will protect my own, I DO NOT NEED nor do I EVER want your protection or bullcrap services, get the he11 out of MY goddamn neighborhood. INSURRECTION!!! SEDITION!!!

Have you EVER read ANY books on history, on the French revelution or on ANY early American conflicts and/or debates involving the founding fathers!!!!

Here is a scenerio for you!!! So they lock down the city, and they WILL do it this way, they go house to house, handcuff the family members with zip ties, take all of you out and put you on a bus at gunpoint, then the bus will take you to a railway station and put you on railcars to a FEMA center for extermination!!!! Sound familiar!!!

THAT is exactly how it is going to happen, and if we do not step up and out and stop these maniacs it is going to go down VERY SOON!!!!!

You passive pussies can sit in your home and wait to be taken away and executed but I sure as heck am not going to sit there quitely and wait for that!!! I'll shoot ever goddamn one of them if I can!!!

Morons!!!!!



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