Originally posted by Lone12

this world Lies to you
msm does
...everyone does.

...and He is waiting for you, to FIND OUT the Lies.

because that is why you are here.

..and, in the end of the road, He is waiting for you.

- if you want to -

You must realize how delusional this sounds to a non believer. Its as ludicrous as thinking santa will give me a lump of coal if I am bad this year..

This argument has been used time and time again against Christianity, but what most people do not realize is that it has been refuted time and time again, and simply does not hold true, whether from a religious or philosophical point of view. So let us start with the idea that starvation and suffering disprove God. This is simply illogical. Saying that things should be a certain way implies that YOU or whoever else making these claims thinks they understand the nature of God, which is not the case.

How can anyone think they understand or know God well enough to make claims about what God should or should not do? Another aspect of suffering is that the majority of it is caused by man. Man could end world hunger next week, so why should God have to do it? I am a Christian, but I will be the first one to tell you that Christianity has been corrupted to a very large degree, and that much of what is written in the Bible is simply false. I posted a reply to a thread yesterday that delved into this idea in depth, if anyone is interested in digging it up. The reason I say I am a Christian at all is that I believe that Jesus was more connected to the true Father than any other human being throughout history.

And I also think that the quote you posted is not meant in the way most people think. The Bible, or mainly the NT as that is all I am concerned with personally, lays out the teachings of Jesus, as we know. Now, much of what Jesus taught was not meant to be taken literally. He even said this himself, to his disciples. If Jesus taught us anything, it is that every single person can have the same power that he himself had, as it had already been given. When people are "faith" healed and all that stuff today, it is not God doing it, but man. How is this possible? Well, because everything that the Creator has given to mankind has already been given. Through faith, and not necessarily faith in God alone, any person can perform the same miracles Jesus did, and has the right to say the same quote that you posted.

Every person has authority of the earth and over mankind. The majority of people do not understand this, and many of them are Christians. Although these ideas are not what Christianity considers doctrine, they are found in the New Testament, and they are the truth. Much of the "New Age" ideas that are correct are mentioned in various ways in the Bible, or are connected to them in some manner, although it may not be obvious. Anyway, going back to suffering. Even IF God really allowed all of this to happen, despite the fact that He could easily change it, does not disprove God. At the very least, and I do not believe this, but logically all that means is that the nature of God is different than what many believe. It would mean that God is not all loving in the manner that He would never allow anyone to suffer.

Another problem with people's ideas is that they view suffering and the happenings here on earth as being "ultimate." Any being, even God, that exists on a higher plane would be able to confirm the fact that what goes on in this plane of existence is just the tip of the iceberg. Suffering, while we view it as some abomination of God, is truly something else entirely. It is true that the sufferings experienced on this plane, in this human form and lifetime, will be exonerated in a sense. Things really do come full circle, as both the NT and many current non-religious theorists teach.

And although it may sound cliché, man truly cannot understand the nature of God, especially not well enough to question Him. This sounds like crap to some because it cannot be proven, and it allows a "way out" of the argument. But if you look at something like the behavior of atoms on the quantum scale, you also see the same idea. The wave-particle duality is one of the things that really support the idea that one can never truly grasp of understand the nature of God. This is because to us, here on earth in this plane of existence, things just do not appear in the same way as in higher planes. That was a horrible way to explain what I mean, lol. Actually, that did not even make a lot of sense. I only mentioned the wave-particle duality because it is impossible to reach a certain state of knowledge regarding a particle. When stripping away all else, down to the quantum level, we are getting closer to God. This is obviously intuitive, and I think most will see where I am going with this, and what I am trying to say.

Honestly, I have simply lost track of the point of this thread and topic, and I am running out of space anyway, so I will wrap it up. To close, remember how I said anyone can be like Jesus if they have faith? Well the whole point is faith. All of the gifts that have already been given by God can be unlocked by man if they choose to unlock them through faith. Therefore God has been extremely merciful imo. So saying he allows something is wrong. He has given us the ability to change things, and it is up to us.

Dear OP,

I would like to take the time to answer your question, although you have already received sundry replies. I did't come across one that really explains things the way they are.

Someone earlier did mention that Satan is the ruler of the world, and we know this to be true. Because while Jesus was on earth, Satan offered rulership over all the kingdoms of the earth to Jesus, if Jesus did an act of worship to him. This was a temptation to Jesus (See Matthew 4:4-8).

That Jesus was tempted at all brings up various points. The first is that Satan indeed is the ruler of the world and thus had the authority to offer Jesus the kingdoms if he saw fit. Also it shows us that Jesus is not God, like some claim, for God cannot be tempted, let alone with something that is already his. Jehovah, in his wisdom has seen fit to let the rebel spirit now known as Satan (or slanderer) to rule mankind as an usurper, to prove whether his rule is better than Jehovah's or not.

When Jesus was resurrected he was granted several things he did not have in his pre-human existence. Before coming to earth he was still the firstborn of all creation, but he did not possess immortality. Immortality is the impossibility of ever dying. Before Jesus died, only his Father Jehovah possessed the divine quality of immortality. That Jesus died proves that he was not immortal. That Satan is condemned to destruction after the thousand year reign, along with his wicked angles shows that they too are not immortal:

(1 Timothy 6:15, 16) . . .This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. . . .

He was also made king over the Christian congregation in the year 33 C. E. when he returned to the spirit realm. At that time he did not immediately become king of God's kingdom government. But he was given all authority over those in heaven and those on earth in the congregation:

(Ephesians 5:23) . . .as the Christ also is head of the congregation. . .

Bible prophecy reveals that after Jesus returned to heaven he would not begin to immediately rule as kingdom of God's kingdom government:

(Hebrews 1:13) . . .But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?

This prophecy referenced was in Psalm 110:1. (This also proves that Jesus cannot be God, for he is exulted to God's right hand.)

So he was to sit at God's right hand UNTIL the time arrived for him to begin ruling as king. Jesus knew that there was a time period to pass before he was to begin ruling as king, thus he while on earth even stated (while his disciples were mistakenly thinking that Jesus was going to begin ruling there on earth at that time in Jerusalem):

(Luke 21:24) . . .and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

There was an "appointed times of the nations." What is that? That is a time that God allotted for mankind to rule, without a kingship representing him in their midst. While the kings in the Davinic line sat on the throne they represented Jehovah himself, and thus there was a time when Jehovah's rulership existed with man's. But in 607 B. C. E. the rebellious Jews were taken into captivity by Babylon as foretold by Jehovah God and the king of Judah was removed from representing Jehovah's throne. Since then there has been no king on earth that has represented Jehovah's throne. Since 607 B. C. E. the "times of the gentiles" has existed. For how long would they last?

Bible prophecy reveals that they would last seven times, or (2,520 years [edit sorry wrote the 3 1/2 times number, needed to double it]. Here below I will briefly site scriptures that lead to this calculation:

(Daniel 4:16, 17) . . .Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it. 17 By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.”

These "seven times" would pass until Jehovah would appoint the king whom he had designated on his throne. How long are seven times? A prophecy in Revelation reveals to us further the formula:

cont...

(Revelation 12:6) 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

(Revelation 12:14) 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.

In verse 14 you see that a time (1) times (2) and a 1/2 a time (3 1/2 times) is equivalent to 1,260 days as calulated in verse 6 of Revelation chapter 12. Actually a time is equivalent to a year on the Jewish calender of 360 days. so 3 1/2 years would be 1,260 days. Double 3 1/2 you have 7. Thus 7 times is 2,520 days. Yet the Biblical formula a day for a year applies, and thus you would not count days, rather years. Since the king was removed from Jehovah's throne in 607 B. C. E. 2,520 years would pass until the appointed times of the nations ended and Jesus was be installed as king of God's heavenly government.

(Ezekiel 21:27) . . .As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’

Jesus had the legal right to be king because he was born in the line of David the line of royal kings, and the everlasting covenant for a kingdom was given to David, and the promise that someone would come to would rule forever on his throne:

(Genesis 49:10) The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shi′loh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.

(Psalm 89:3) “I have concluded a covenant toward my chosen one; I have sworn to David my servant,

(Psalm 132:11) Jehovah has sworn to David, Truly he will not draw back from it: “Of the fruitage of your belly I shall set on your throne.

That the kingdom covenant would be given to Jesus while his enemies still ruled on earth is even stated in prophecy there in Psalm 110:

(Psalm 110:1, 2) . . .The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”  2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

Jesus would begin to rule while his enemies still rule. Another prophecy that applies to the time Jesus would take kingdom power is found in Psalm two. There we are told that Jehovah would give the earth to his son as his inheritance. And then Jehovah tells the rulers of the earth to bow to his rule, lest Jesus become angry and they must perish. Rather than accept Jesus' good rule, the governments of the earth have refused to recognize his kingdom and his hereditary right to rule mankind:

(Psalm 2:2-8) . . .The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,  3 [Saying:] “Let us tear their bands apart And cast their cords away from us!”  4 The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah himself will hold them in derision.  5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them,  6 [Saying:] “I, even I, have installed my king Upon Zion, my holy mountain.”  7 Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.  8 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.

True, this prophecy had its initial fulfillment in 33 C. E., when the Jewish religious leaders conspired together with the Roman governmental authorities to put Jesus to death. Yet, the main fulfillment is in our day. Since 1914 Jesus was installed as king in heaven. He now rules invisibly from above. He has a visible organization on earth over which he is head (the Christian congregation of Jehovah's witnesses). All religions that partake in politics, and wars on earth cannot be part of his kingdom. For you cannot slave for two masters, and those who wish to be friends of this world, are constituting themselves enemies with God.

Mankind at the behest of its invisible spirit ruler Satan the Devil, will not submit to God's rule. Thus in order for Jesus to exercise his right to rule over mankind he will have to wage war against them:

(Psalm 2:9) . . .You will break them with an iron scepter, As though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”

Yes, at Armageddon, Jesus' kingdom will be established as prayed for in the "Our Father" prayer where millions without knowing what they pray for state: "Thy kingdom come, they will be done on earth as is in heaven." That heavenly government will indeed come and it will exercise its authority at the proper time by destroying all governments on earth:

cont...

(Daniel 2:44) “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

When that government comes to earth Jesus will establish a kingdom of peace over all mankind. Therein all the righteous will dwell, as the meek shall inherit the earth and live forever upon it:

(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

That God's government will crush and put an end to all mankind's governments is indeed foretold there in Daniel 2, where Jehovah gave a vision to king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon of a mighty statute:

(Daniel 2:45) 45 forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy.”


The mountain represents God's kingdom government:

(Isaiah 2:3) 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, . . .

The stone that was cut out not by human hands, was cut out by Jesus, the immortal spirit now ruling as king in heaven. It will hurl at the feet of the imagine, which represents the governments in the times of the end, of which we now live. Thus God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus will wage war with the governments of this earth, and establish a righteous government over mankind. All wicked mankind will be done away with:

(Revelation 19:17, 18) . . .“Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”


Someone also asked, what happened to God while he has appointed Jesus over his kingdom government. He has allowed Jesus to rule, for a time. That reign will be a thousand years, for him to bring mankind back to perfection, make the earth a paradise and raise all those dead back to life. Then at the end of the thousand year reign, Jesus himself will return the kingdom back to his Father Jehovah:

(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) . . .Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Thus at the end, after he has rid us of the last enemy death, he will return the kingdom to his Father Jehovah that he may be subject to him and thus God may be all things to everyone.