Jesus : All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by SubAce

 

It is powerful and is able to cut into the very marrow, and reveal the intentions of a person's heart. When scripture is read how does one react? Do they reject it, or do they accept it as it truthfully is, the word of God:

I happen to think that Stupid Girl accepts God's word as absolute truth based on past posting history, but her interpretation of it is different that yours. Now, I'm not exactly sure what all she had a problem with, so I'll let her speak for herself, but let me just give you an example of my interpretation.

When you mentioned that Satan had all of the power in this world because he was able to offer the kingdoms and nations to Christ if he worshiped him, I totally disagreed. Satan has a habit of lying. When he told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree of knowledge that would not die, he lied. The situation between Satan and Christ was no different.

If you're a Jehovah's Witness and believe that the earth as we know it today is going to remain the same in physical terms forever and ever, I disagree. It will be burned up and new combined heaven/earth will be set in it's place.

These are just a couple of examples of differences in interpretation of scripture that I'm sure we probably have. Does that make me any less of a believer in God, Jesus Christ and the power of God's Word? Absolutely not.

Okay, thank your taking the time to write these things. And I respect them. But here is something. If Satan was lying that he had all the kingdoms of the earth to give Jesus. Do you think Jesus would have been fooled or tempted to take them, or did Jesus deny Satan had the power to give Jesus the kingdom's of the earth? No. Let us see what the scripture states:

(Matthew 4:1) . . .Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.

Here we see that Jesus was lead to be "tempted" by Satan. Now to be tempted means "to try to get someone to to wrong by means of an offer of a reward."

Next the account states: (Matthew 4:8-10) . . .Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Notice that Satan tempted Jesus with the offer of rulership over the kingdoms of the earth, if Jesus would worship him. Jesus did not say, you are lying. He did not say that he was not tempted. Rather he rejected the temptation by citing from Jehovah's word and stated: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship."

Also Jesus stated this about Satan:

(John 14:30) . . ., for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,

Yes, Satan was coming, the "ruler of the world" but he had no hold on Jesus.

Later on we are told

(2 Corinthians 4:4) among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

Yes, Satan, the god of this world, has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. Also we are told:

(1 John 5:19) . . .but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

The wicked one, who has control of the whole world is Satan the Devil.



As far as your stating that the earth will not endure, I need not be considered. Look at what the healthful words of truth as found in God's word the Bible reveal:

(Psalm 104:5) He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.


(Ecclesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.


(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.


So you are not disagreeing with me at all. Rather with the Bible. I respect your right to not believe what scripture states. But if you really love God and his word, what do you do when you read his word, and what it says is not what you have been taught? It takes great humility to accept the truth. That is why we are told to be humble. For the humble will be exalted.

reply to post by windword


If Jesus takes all the decisions for us then we are robots and we are not man. We have freewill to make choices. Like do we believe in God or nothing.

reply to post by SubAce


I think you only have to look at Jesus' responses to see just how "tempted" Jesus was by Satan. His responses didn't appear to linger in thought to me. His responses were direct and consistent and he didn't ask Satan a bunch of questions or bargain with him in order to make a decision.

Yes, Satan has the ability to blind unbelievers. Do you think that means he's capable of blinding them forever and that no one from that day forward was ever saved? No, Jesus told us that God decides who to bring to him and no one can pluck them out of his hand.

I'll be back to address what I believe about the earth in the Bible in a little while after I feed the family.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by SubAce

 

I think you only have to look at Jesus' responses to see just how "tempted" Jesus was by Satan. His responses didn't appear to linger in thought to me. His responses were direct and consistent and he didn't ask Satan a bunch of questions or bargain with him in order to make a decision.

Yes, Satan has the ability to blind unbelievers. Do you think that means he's capable of blinding them forever and that no one from that day forward was ever saved? No, Jesus told us that God decides who to bring to him and no one can pluck them out of his hand.

I'll be back to address what I believe about the earth in the Bible in a little while after I feed the family.

edit on 28-2-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

I agree that Jesus instantly rejected the temptations, not even giving them a second thought. He immediately turned his eye from the vision Satan must have given Jesus, and he kept his eye firm on the prize, and being faithful to his Father Jehovah. What a good example for us today who are tempted!

But they were temptations, otherwise the scripture would not have referred to them as temptations.

reply to post by SubAce

(Luke 21:24) . . .and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

Are you quoting a special Bible, because I'm looking at 20 different translations and none of them read like that?
I don't see "appointed" and I don't see "nations" (except in the "Darby" translation, the inventor of Dispensationalism).
The "time" of 'the time of the Gentiles' comes from a Greek word that can also mean a season, or a day, and does not have to mean an age or a "dispensation".

As for the sitting at the "right hand of God", you are interpreting that backwards according to Paul.
1 Corinthians 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”

reply to post by mrperplexed

To me its a crazy cult, just like you believe his is.

Dee is a girl.
I don't think the people are necessarily crazy.
Like I said, Dispensationalism was invented over 200 years ago so there are generation of people raised up in this belief and to them the cult teachings are more the gospel than the Bible that they see as just a thing to mine for "proof-texts" or make their own from, by splicing together fragments of disparate verses.

reply to post by Deetermined

If you read anything in the Bible that sounds like heaven and peace, but it mentions that it is on earth, the Bible is talking about the Millennial period on earth, not heaven.

I'm not pushing any millennium theory.
The word is not in the Bible, and the 1000 years is in Revelation, which is using the terms of the Roman Empire so it just means a reign, which we are under and have been under since the Parusia back in 70 AD.

reply to post by SubAce

Also Jesus stated this about Satan:

(John 14:30) . . ., for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,

Yes, Satan was coming, the "ruler of the world" but he had no hold on Jesus.

That verse is freely translated.
In the Greek, it just says "he has nothing in me."
The Gospel of John is the only place that uses the term "prince of this world".
It also skips the 'temptation in the wilderness' story that is in the other Gospels.
So his temptation comes at the end of the story rather than at the beginning, in this Gospel.
Jesus is being a bit metaphorical here, where he is personifying the entity over the temple cult who has at his disposal all these adherents to the belief in a civil Messiah, who would be happy to take up arms to support someone willing to take that offer.
Jesus has no interest in that sort of pursuit.

Later on we are told

(2 Corinthians 4:4) among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

Yes, Satan, the god of this world, has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.

It does not equate the 'god' of this verse with Satan. That is your own interpretation you are throwing in there.
Paul is talking about the old god struggling while it fades into obscurity.
The context is the Judaizers who are fighting against Paul, trying to keep the old Jewish system going.

Yes, Satan, the god of this world, has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. Also we are told:

(1 John 5:19) . . .but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

The wicked one, who has control of the whole world is Satan the Devil.

Jesus (in John) said he accomplished his goals and had judged Satan.
In another Gospel (Luke) he says he "saw Satan fall like lightning".

This is another free translation in the verse you are quoting.
This Greek word that you are claiming to mean Satan is found in two places in the New Testament in this morphological form, the other is in Matthew, where Jesus says not to resist evil people who are there to do violence.
The writer of 1 John is not talking about Satan, and he means that the world is in the hands of people who rule through violence, namely the Roman Empire.
The non-Christian Jews were the ones who fought against them which resulted in a million of them killed in the fall of Jerusalem.
So another of your misinterpretations of scripture in support of the "King Satan" theory.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

I'm not pushing any millennium theory.
The word is not in the Bible, and the 1000 years is in Revelation, which is using the terms of the Roman Empire so it just means a reign, which we are under and have been under since the Parusia back in 70 AD.

In that case, look up the scriptures that refer to Jesus' reign here on earth. It's all the same thing. Unless you think it's already happened, but I don't think the Jews have lived in peace inside Israel with Jesus himself reigning yet.

Here's a place to start...

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

In fact, I think the entire book of Zechariah does a great job of describing what it will be like.

Originally posted by SubAce

I agree that Jesus instantly rejected the temptations, not even giving them a second thought. He immediately turned his eye from the vision Satan must have given Jesus, and he kept his eye firm on the prize, and being faithful to his Father Jehovah. What a good example for us today who are tempted!

But they were temptations, otherwise the scripture would not have referred to them as temptations.

Personally, I think VonDinkinDunken said it best earlier in this thread when he said.....

Jesus was the Son of God or God made flesh.

The reason he was tempted was so that he could endure the same temptations common to mankind and resist thus fulfilling the rigid requirements of the Law. If He was tempted in all areas of the law and overcame every temptation, then he triumphed over the power of the Law to condemn, and over the power of Sin. God the Father required the Law be fulfilled for any man to be redeemed. Since all men sin and fall short of the Glory of God, no man was able to fulfill the law. So God sent his Son to do this for us on our behalf. It was an act of Mercy by God.

God didn't have to do this. He had the power to stop this at any moment. In the Bible, Jesus even said in Matthew 26:53-54 "Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

Satan offered Jesus what was not his to give. The only power Satan has is that which God allows him to have.

Also, from my understanding, Satan offered this b/c he didn't know at this point that Jesus was who he claimed to be.

As for why Jesus, having all the power, could allow oppression of the innocent, or any other bad thing that happens on this Earth, is a complex question with a complex answer. The Bible says God has a plan that he laid out before Earth even existed. It also says the sun shines on the wicked just as it does on the righteous. Surely, there are many more reasons that what I can provide. Still, I always wonder how much more suffering and oppression would take place if God never intervened at all. Know what I mean?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by SubAce

(Ecclesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.

Alright, no wonder you are having a problem understanding the Bible.
You are reading the Watchtower version.
The correct way to read that verse is that the earth 'continues'.
It is being poetic, comparing the lifespan of humans to the age of the earth.
It is not some pronouncement, like your propaganda version makes it out to be, about how the earth has to remain as it is, forever.

reply to post by SubAce

As far as your stating that the earth will not endure, I need not be considered. Look at what the healthful words of truth as found in God's word the Bible reveal:

(Psalm 104:5) He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.

(Ecclesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.

(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

So you are not disagreeing with me at all. Rather with the Bible. I respect your right to not believe what scripture states. But if you really love God and his word, what do you do when you read his word, and what it says is not what you have been taught? It takes great humility to accept the truth. That is why we are told to be humble. For the humble will be exalted.

Isaiah 65:17 - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:10 - 13; 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:23 - And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:25 - And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 22:5 - And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

So, what exactly is your view on what the earth will be like? Will it remain exactly the same? Will it be transformed? If not, why will it not need a sun or a moon?

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . Zechariah does a great job of describing what it will be like.

That comes from your Dispensationalist background.
Zechariah is not even a prophecy per se, it's a series of 'oracles', more like wishful thinking, based on the idea that after the Babylonian captivity, under the Persian Empire, restored Israel was supposed to prosper.
Instead they were witnessing that dream falling apart as the Persians were being defeated by the Greeks, people not at all friendly towards other gods or religion, especially theirs. And their own fortunes diminishing as their alliances were falling apart with their neighboring countries.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I disagree. You may want to take a second look and compare. Zechariah is prophecy.

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Zechariah 9:9 - Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Remembered in John 12:14-16;

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:37 - And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Zechariah 13:7 - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Matthew 26:31 - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Jesus stated rightly that all authority was given to him. It would not be authority if he could not decide when to exercise it. He has granted you and all others a free choice to accept his rulership in the world he will bring. If you were forced against your will, you would bring the very elements that you decry into his kingdom. Time has no meaning to an eternal God. For his part, Jesus satisfied his own justice by being himself punished for your sins, so you can opt in or opt out based solely on his grace [unmerited favor]. It is the duty of his followers on Earth to bring his offer of amnesty for sin to those who will receive him. Anyone else would have to be judged acceptable on his own merits to enter into Jesus coming Kingdom - which is to say you would have to equal a sinless Jesus.- oh that's right.

reply to post by Deetermined

Remembered in John . . .

There does seem to be an exchange between the Gospels and the language in Zechariah but none of those similar sounding passages in Zechariah were prophecies.
You need to take a closer look at what is really being said in that book.
I realize it is difficult and that is why I study it, so people know.
The reason I do, is what I stated earlier, which is that Dispensationalists use these things as a wedge to separate people from the truth, that Jesus reigns now, and is not waiting for some official coronation where David's throne is brought out of storage for Jesus to sit on.

reply to post by MCL1150

Remember, God doesn't infringe on man's free will like men do! All the wrong we see in this beautiful world is in direct result of all our wrong doings, what we sow so shall we reap!!

I am not talking about free will.The Bible says that at one point, Jesus will directly rule over the earth. But we see that Jesus was given authority over earth shortly after his "resurrection".

If its all about free will, then whats the point of armageddon and the establishment of the kingdom? Why not leave the world the way it is?

reply to post by jmdewey60

The reason I do is what I stated earlier, which is that Dispensationalist use these things a a wedge to separate people from the truth, that Jesus reigns now, and is not waiting for some official coronation where David's throne is brought out of storage for Jesus to sit on.

Jesus may be reigning for us right now, but he still needs to fulfill the promise to the Jews too and that includes being their King here on earth for a time.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

. . . whats the point of armageddon and the establishment of the kingdom? Why not leave the world the way it is?

Did someone bring that up?
Sounds like Jehovah's Witness doctrine.
Armageddon is a metaphorical story about how the kings of the earth are summoned to the palace of God to be corrected.
It isn't some world conflagration like some people make it out to be.
And the kingdom stands today and needs no 'ushering in'.
Jesus is ready to be Lord of anyone who wants to accept him, today.
We need to leave all the 'post-apocalyptic world' scenes to the sci-fi horror movies.

reply to post by JiggyPotamus

So let us start with the idea that starvation and suffering disprove God. This is simply illogical. Saying that things should be a certain way implies that YOU or whoever else making these claims thinks they understand the nature of God, which is not the case.

I know a lot of atheists point towards suffering to make their case that God doesn't exist. But thats not my point.

Christians believe that when Jesus starts ruling, the world would be a great place, right?
So is Jesus said "all authority in heaven and on earth" was given to him... it kind of means that Jesus already has authority over earth. So then why is the world such a lousy place?

Its like a king saying he has authority over a certain kingdom but refrains from ruling it.... thereby allowing the kingdom to fall into the hands of evil men who lay it to waste.