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posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 04:26 PM
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Only THEN can you see that it paints a picture of how Abraham's willingness and obedience to sacrifice his son would open the door for God to sacrifice His own son for US.

By that single act of obedience all nations would be blessed through the Messiah who would be one of his own descendants.



Again....WHY was a sacrifice necessary? Why did God need the obedience? He sees everything all the time right? so why not save the suffering?

And why did God need a door opened? Did he not create everything? Why the need for a loophole?




posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by mrperplexed
 


Why do we go to work everyday and eat and go to the doctor ? Now you want reality , the reality is that your going to die some day . Why go to all the trouble of laboring so hard going through sickness and heart ache and all the bother of trying so hard to survive only to have it all end in death , the enevitable ?
Why do you play games on the computer or the field . Is it just for the enjoyment . Are we not made in the image of God ? Is that why the so called missing link is still missing ?
Who are we to question God .? Could you understand God if he explained every thing .? No !



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by mrperplexed
Again....WHY was a sacrifice necessary? Why did God need the obedience? He sees everything all the time right? so why not save the suffering?

And why did God need a door opened? Did he not create everything? Why the need for a loophole?

God did not need an open door.

WE did...

A sacrifice WASN'T necessary.

The sacrifice was for OUR benefit in order for us to get to Heaven.

The obedience is for OUR own good, not His.

Why not save the suffering?

THIS is the reason for the sacrifice.

God isn't the reason for the suffering, WE are...


"Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy ... Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter ... therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator." (1 Peter 4:12)

Notice in the first verse that the Lord is specifically targeting our faith when He allows trials to come our way. He really hammers home this point when He says that our faith in Him is even more precious than any of the gold of this earth. He then makes an extreme statement when He says that this faith will then be "tested by fire."

Having your personal faith levels in the Lord tested by fire is not something most people want to hear or talk about in this current day and age. ...many pastors have decided not to talk or teach about this topic because it is so uncomfortable to talk about...

God is not causing all of these bad things to happen, thereby causing this kind of horrible suffering. Since the Bible tells us that there is no darkness in God, there is no way He could cause some of these bad and horrible things to occur.

These bad and horrible things are all occurring because of the Adamic curse that is still in operation on this earth. And until that curse is fully and finally removed when we get the New Heaven and New Earth, a certain amount of physical, mental and emotional suffering will not only be a part of this world and life, but it will also be a part of our individual and personal walks with the Lord.

This is why every single Christian needs the knowledge, revelation and understanding on this entire part of the walk with our Lord - so they can properly handle this type of adversity and suffering when it does come their way.

WHY PEOPLE GO THROUGH TRIALS


Another video about suffering (also by Francis Chan):
www.youtube.com...



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 



God isn't the reason for the suffering, WE are...




Isaiah 45

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


But God created that which allows us to suffer correct?

In his omnipresence he foresaw the temtation did he not? So why not work to prevent it?
edit on 26-2-2013 by Openeye because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


You have a disgusting outlook. "God didn't need to do anything - WE needed it". A perfect SLAVE Mentality. You are totally wrong, If God is benevolent as he claims to be, then he does indeed need to get off his ass and act a certain way, otherwise he is a liar. God's own nature can go against himself (God IS love - not lovING but LOVE - yet God is also Jealous) and people will still worship him. It is hard to have compassion for such people who are being controlled when they promote such EVIL.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 

So you think God is disgusting and evil...

BUT at the same time you believe that people need to be more conceited, self-interested, and stop serving others.

Is it possible that someone might just be one twist short of a slinky here?



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by FreeThinkerbychoice
 



Jesus was a perfect man. He lived as a man in body and mind but was holy and so was able to resist temptation and sin. I cannot prove it except by what is written in the Bible. The Holy Spirit inspired man to write the Bible. Jesus raised the dead, he healed the blind, he healed leprosy, he healed the woman with the bleeding disorder and that was by HER touching his robe. It was when he felt the power go out of him that he realized someone had just been healed. He calmed the storm on the ship, he fed the masses with just a few fish and some bread, he turned water into wine - the Bible is full of his miracles. He also rose from the dead on the third day and then ascended into Heaven. Jesus didn't need to cast any stones as he was talking to those who wanted to throw the stones. His whole point was about not judging others and he told the woman not to sin anymore after. Jesus was about teaching through love and reasoning and not by hurt and demeaning.
Take care

I



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 


First, it is true that Jesus didn’t have a sin nature. But that doesn’t make a person incapable of sinning. Remember, Adam and Eve didn’t have a sin nature either, and yet they sinned. Second, James 1:15 says sin begins with desire. Therefore, temptation becomes a sin when we consciously consider yielding to it. In His human nature Jesus faced all the temptations common to man, but He never once considered acting on them (Hebrews 4:15).

In Matt. 4:1-11 the devil was trying to get Jesus to consider acting on the temptations presented to Him, knowing if Jesus did He would become a sinner and would be disqualified as our redeemer. The example He was setting was in choosing not to yield to the temptation.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 11:59 PM
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reply to post by LazarusTsiyr
 


“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin” ( Hebrews 4:15 )

One of the things that helps us relate to Jesus as a personal savior is that He has been there and can relate to us on the basis of humanity. Philippians tells us that he emptied himself of everything and entered into mankind in human form ( Philippians 2:6-7 ). He stripped himself of all divine privileges and dignity and assumed the guise of a slave born under the dominion of Satan’s kingdom. He did this so He could rescue us.

Jesus started with nothing. He was born in the most humble of circumstances. Born to teenage parents in a lowly manger, reserved for animals. Not exactly the place for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords ( Revelation 19:16 ). And yet Luke’s gospel tells us that Jesus grew in wisdom, and the grace of God was on Him ( Luke 2:40 ). Even from an early age, Jesus pursued and prepared for His role as the Savior of the World.

During His time on earth Jesus underwent temptation and trials so He would be fully equipped to serve as our High Priest. He deal with difficult people and faced situations that are common in humanity and yet the Bible says that He was without sin. This is incredibly important because to defeat death we needed a perfect sin substitute. By conquering the grasp sin had on mankind He was able to free us from what held us captive. Since He emptied himself of all divine privileges and experienced the fullness of humanity He is able to understand and empathize with us in our weaknesses. There is no one better equipped to serve before God as our High Priest than Jesus.

The previous verse in Hebrews says, “Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess” ( Hebrews 4:14 ). Since this is a past event and Jesus has ascended to the right hand of the Father, we can cling to this confession of faith in Jesus when trials and temptations seem to close in around us. He is there to provide help exactly when we need it. All we have to do is ask and believe that He will deliver us. Paul told us, “No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it” ( I Corinthians 10:13 ). He is able to do this because He has been there and understands the common temptations that mankind faces.

What a marvelous truth knowing that Jesus was chosen as our High Priest. One who has been tempted and tried in every way imaginable and yet remained sinless throughout His course in life. He is able to run to our side and assist us in every circumstance because He has been there. And now He is in heaven in a position to help us in every way because He humbled himself, becoming obedient to death to rescue us from the dominion of darkness. Because of this we can have boldness and confidence to enter into the throne room of God to find grace and mercy when we need it.



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 02:53 AM
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I found this interesting.

www.religionfacts.com...



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by FreeThinkerbychoice
 


You can believe what you want . Your Freethinker by choice tells me that you do not like the burdens of the Gospel and seek to free yourself of them . You are wanting not to believe in Jesus, but you aren't quite sure are you ?


I cannot argue with your statement of burden that gospels bestow upon modern man. If your read carefully then you would of seen the part where I said I cannot deny the existence of Christ. What bothers me though is that people put all there hopes on this character without considering the possibility of self empowerment by using principles of Christs teachings. Instead people find offense in the littlest of alternative comments towards the identity of Christ. I was merely stating my opinion which I am entitled to. I'm not very sure of many things because once you open your eyes and seek answers to personal questions one finds that our natural world and everything it bestows to be extremely complex and diverse. Try be a little more open minded in your endeavors of self discovery. Your reply indeed raises questions of insecurity in your own faith.

Good things



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by mrperplexed
I found this interesting.

www.religionfacts.com...

This is so cool, I will enjoy reading this when I get home. Very interesting.



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by FreeThinkerbychoice

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by FreeThinkerbychoice
 


You can believe what you want . Your Freethinker by choice tells me that you do not like the burdens of the Gospel and seek to free yourself of them . You are wanting not to believe in Jesus, but you aren't quite sure are you ?


I cannot argue with your statement of burden that gospels bestow upon modern man. If your read carefully then you would of seen the part where I said I cannot deny the existence of Christ. What bothers me though is that people put all there hopes on this character without considering the possibility of self empowerment by using principles of Christs teachings. Instead people find offense in the littlest of alternative comments towards the identity of Christ. I was merely stating my opinion which I am entitled to. I'm not very sure of many things because once you open your eyes and seek answers to personal questions one finds that our natural world and everything it bestows to be extremely complex and diverse. Try be a little more open minded in your endeavors of self discovery. Your reply indeed raises questions of insecurity in your own faith.

Good things


Freethinker - I totally got what you were saying in your post to me. I respect that. I don't see the gospels as being a burden (saying this from my own personal viewpoint). I see them as enlightening and hope inspiring and just plain incredible. The 4 gospels are first hand accounts of Jesus and his life, death. Written by 4 different viewpoints. I don't agree with people having to think all the same way, as where is freedom of choice and freedom of thought? God gave us a brain and we should use it to explore possibilities. If we didn't have this ability and choice we'd all still be believing we are on a flat earth and Martin Luther would have never opened people's eyes to Grace instead of living by law and having to achieve works and trying to achieve perfection (the days of self flagellation and wearing sackcloths to atone for sin, etc). Again we cannot know everything that the Bible means and there are still things that God is revealing to us as it becomes necessary to understand. But as long as we believe that Jesus is our savior and we ask for forgiveness for our sins then we're good.
Have a great day!



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Murgatroid
 


You have a disgusting outlook. "God didn't need to do anything - WE needed it". A perfect SLAVE Mentality. You are totally wrong, If God is benevolent as he claims to be, then he does indeed need to get off his ass and act a certain way, otherwise he is a liar. God's own nature can go against himself (God IS love - not lovING but LOVE - yet God is also Jealous) and people will still worship him. It is hard to have compassion for such people who are being controlled when they promote such EVIL.


The doctrine that God is a jealous God comes from the Old Testament books of the law of Moses. The "jealousy" is always in the context of idol worship, beginning in the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20.

•"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:5)
•for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-- (Exodus 34:14)
•"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. (Deuteronomy 4:24)
•'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Deuteronomy 5:9)
•for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off, the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 6:15)
What these five verses have in common is that they all share the same Hebrew adjective, qannâ' (Strong's H7067),5 translated with the English word "jealous." The interesting thing about this word is that it is only used in reference to God. In no instance is the word qannâ' used to describe human jealousy. The reason that God is "jealous" is because He wants people to choose to love Him.6 Jesus said that the most important commandment was to love God.7 God does not want us to waste out time worshipping pretend gods that do not exist.8

Human jealousyWhereas God's "jealousy" is primarily restricted to a jealousy over the worship of idols that competes with His love to prevent a dedicated relationship with Him, jealousy between people takes on quite a number of forms. Two different Hebrew words are used to describe human jealousy. The Hebrew verb qânâ' (Strong's H7065)9 refers to a passionate jealousy or envy.10 The Hebrew noun qin'âh (Strong's H7068)11 takes on a wide range of meanings from sexual passion (or jealousy) to a zeal for God to anger or envy.12 The exact meaning (and the English translation is usually determined from the context.

Human vs. godly jealousyThe differences between the words describing human vs. godly jealousy are profound. For example, the jealousy that keeps one out of heaven is defined as "an envious and contentious rivalry, jealousy" (Thayer's Greek Dictionary). God does not envy an human being or anything that any human being possesses. God has no rivals. The apostle Paul indicates that there is a godly form of jealousy.13 The main reason why atheists think that God should not be jealous is that, as an English word, "jealousy" has virtually universal negative connotations. In the original languages in which the Bible is written, Hebrew and Greek, the words translated as "jealousy" in English do not always have negative connotations. In fact, the Greek word often translated "jealous" is zēlos, from which we get the English word "zealous," referring more to zeal and ardor rather than jealousy.

Conclusion Jealousy is often thought of as being a negative trait. So, many people think that the Bible's description of God as jealous means that He must be a divine hypocrite. However, this page has shown that in the original languages in which the Bible is written, the words do not have those negative definitions. Since the word used to describe the jealousy of God is not even the same word used to describe human jealousy, it is clear that the apparent contradiction is just a result of an inability of the translated language (English) to accurately reflect the original language (Hebrew). There is no slight on the character of God in the original language.



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by ccseagull

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Murgatroid
 


You have a disgusting outlook. "God didn't need to do anything - WE needed it". A perfect SLAVE Mentality. You are totally wrong, If God is benevolent as he claims to be, then he does indeed need to get off his ass and act a certain way, otherwise he is a liar. God's own nature can go against himself (God IS love - not lovING but LOVE - yet God is also Jealous) and people will still worship him. It is hard to have compassion for such people who are being controlled when they promote such EVIL.


The doctrine that God is a jealous God comes from the Old Testament books of the law of Moses. The "jealousy" is always in the context of idol worship, beginning in the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20.

•"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:5)
•for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-- (Exodus 34:14)
•"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. (Deuteronomy 4:24)
•'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Deuteronomy 5:9)
•for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off, the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 6:15)
What these five verses have in common is that they all share the same Hebrew adjective, qannâ' (Strong's H7067),5 translated with the English word "jealous." The interesting thing about this word is that it is only used in reference to God. In no instance is the word qannâ' used to describe human jealousy. The reason that God is "jealous" is because He wants people to choose to love Him.6 Jesus said that the most important commandment was to love God.7 God does not want us to waste out time worshipping pretend gods that do not exist.8

Human jealousyWhereas God's "jealousy" is primarily restricted to a jealousy over the worship of idols that competes with His love to prevent a dedicated relationship with Him, jealousy between people takes on quite a number of forms. Two different Hebrew words are used to describe human jealousy. The Hebrew verb qânâ' (Strong's H7065)9 refers to a passionate jealousy or envy.10 The Hebrew noun qin'âh (Strong's H7068)11 takes on a wide range of meanings from sexual passion (or jealousy) to a zeal for God to anger or envy.12 The exact meaning (and the English translation is usually determined from the context.

Human vs. godly jealousyThe differences between the words describing human vs. godly jealousy are profound. For example, the jealousy that keeps one out of heaven is defined as "an envious and contentious rivalry, jealousy" (Thayer's Greek Dictionary). God does not envy an human being or anything that any human being possesses. God has no rivals. The apostle Paul indicates that there is a godly form of jealousy.13 The main reason why atheists think that God should not be jealous is that, as an English word, "jealousy" has virtually universal negative connotations. In the original languages in which the Bible is written, Hebrew and Greek, the words translated as "jealousy" in English do not always have negative connotations. In fact, the Greek word often translated "jealous" is zēlos, from which we get the English word "zealous," referring more to zeal and ardor rather than jealousy.

Conclusion Jealousy is often thought of as being a negative trait. So, many people think that the Bible's description of God as jealous means that He must be a divine hypocrite. However, this page has shown that in the original languages in which the Bible is written, the words do not have those negative definitions. Since the word used to describe the jealousy of God is not even the same word used to describe human jealousy, it is clear that the apparent contradiction is just a result of an inability of the translated language (English) to accurately reflect the original language (Hebrew). There is no slight on the character of God in the original language.





Um.. FAIL! I am a Jealous God!!! (But for the last 2,000 years I have behaved).. Haha what a crock..



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by ccseagull
 


I can most definitely respect your viewpoint and strong sense of faith. I wish you the very best in your journey and personal discoveries.

Good things



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 05:58 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 

It only starts to make sense when you fast forward into the future and look at it from GOD"S viewpoint when He would sacrifice HIS own son on this very same mountain.
Make sense to who?
I would think that if there was some connection between those two events, that the writers of the New Testament would have mentioned it.
Here is how I connect them: The Jews told Jesus they had Abraham for a father.
Jesus answered that their father was a murderer.



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by FreeThinkerbychoice
reply to post by ccseagull
 


I can most definitely respect your viewpoint and strong sense of faith. I wish you the very best in your journey and personal discoveries.

Good things


Dear FreeThinkerbychoice - I wish you the very best as well. You have a very sweet and caring nature and that shines through. Hugs.



posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Originally posted by jmdewey60
I would think that if there was some connection between those two events, that the writers of the New Testament would have mentioned it.

Isaac was a ‘type’ of Christ that paints a picture of the true one to come.

Joseph, Moses, David, and Jonah were all men of God who also portrayed a type of Jesus.


  • Isaac and Jesus were "only, beloved" sons of a righteous father; Ishmael had been sent away in Genesis 21:14 [Genesis 22:2].

  • Both Isaac and Jesus are identified as the "son of Abraham" [see Genesis 21:3; 22:2; Matthew 1:1].

  • Both were offered in sacrifice [Genesis 22:2; John 1:29; Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:33; John 11:5019:17-18].

  • The sacrifice was offered in the land of Moriah – Jerusalem [Genesis 22:2; 2 Chronicles 3:1; Matthew 16:21-23].

  • Both sons carried the wood for their own sacrifice [Genesis 22:6; John 19:17]

  • Both were "bound" and placed on top of the wood [Genesis 22:9; John 19:18-19; Philippians 2:8].

  • Both willingly allow themselves to be offered in sacrifice [Genesis 22:7-8; Colossians 2:6-8].

  • Both sons were "resurrected" or "given back" the their fathers on the third day. Isaac was essentially "dead" to his grieving father when God commanded him to sacrifice his son. On the "third day" God provided another sacrifice and his son was restored. God's son died on the Cross and was resurrected on the third day! [Genesis 22:4; Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20; 19; Mark 9:31; 10:34; Luke 9:22; 18:22; 24:7, 44-47; Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:4].

    ISAAC A "TYPE" OF JESUS


  • Notice the faith of Abraham - he looked forward to the cross, where the Messiah, the Lamb of God, would die in our place. Notice verse 8 says "God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering." It doesn't say, "God will provide for Himself a lamb," but that "God will provide Himself a lamb" - ie. provide Himself as the lamb! This theme is pictured all through the Old Testament, in every sacrifice - especially in the burnt offering, in the Passover Lamb, in Isaiah 53, in the New Testament, and even in the book of Revelation, where Jesus is referred to as "a Lamb as it had been slain," bearing the scars of His crucifixion for eternity.

    "God will provide Himself a lamb." Abraham was looking prophetically towards God's fulfillment of all His promises, especially of the coming Redeemer.

    Here, I believe, Abraham got his clearest glimpse of the coming Messiah:

    John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    In the Old Testament, God's name Jehovah means, "I Am that I Am." (See Exodus 3:14) This is exactly who Jesus claimed to be, which is why the unbelieving Jews got upset - but notice how it fulfilled the wonderful prophecy made by Abraham: "God will provide Himself a lamb." There are no contradictions in the Word of God - it is all one big Book that fits together wonderfully!

    One of my favourite verses in the whole Bible:

    Genesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

    Jehovahjireh - the Lord my Provider! The name means literally, "The Lord Will See or Provide," signifying that the Lord has seen my need and and will provide it.

    Isaac A Type Of Christ



    posted on Feb, 27 2013 @ 08:09 PM
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    reply to post by Murgatroid
     


    I myself have always believed the obedience of Abraham to offer his only son to God as requested was the prerequisite to Gods offering Jesus . When God could sense a change of heart that comes over a person before they take a life he knew that Abraham was going to offer up Isaac.
    At that time God offered his Son for the remission of sin.
    I do believe that the place of Abraham's offering was the same place as the Sacrificial Altar on the Temple Mount .





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