Question about Jesus

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posted on Feb, 25 2013 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by mrperplexed
Laz.. You may be the one person on all of ATS who can actually restore my faith. Seriously. I mean that as a compliment.

One of the most AWESOME things I have ever read on ATS...


ALL of Heaven rejoices when ever a soul turns their face towards Heaven.

It's a very rare thing on ATS when a person receives the truth.




posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 02:37 AM
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Jesus was nothing but a human and a Prophet of God. He was not god nor was he his son. Just like any other messenger of God he came to reveal what God wanted to reveal for humanity. God could of revealed it with angels and made it more convincing couldn't he? But he has knowledge of what he does and he knows best. Jesus came with the bible and it's been tampered with, every Christian is in agreement with this. The words in the Bible aren't even the word of Jesus, they are the words of a Jewish man that killed Christians and his stand was against Christianity. Paul was not a Christian nor was his intention to spread the truth.



“ And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse). And because of their saying (in boast). We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah, -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam [Mary]. But Allah raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he (Peace Be Upon Him) is in the heaven). And Allah is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jews or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them” [Chapter 4: verses 156-159]


Jesus or Isa (peace be upon him) never died and has to come back in the end of times to kill the Anti-Messiah which we call Massih-Ad-Dajjal translating into the False Messiah.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 02:51 AM
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reply to post by Prisoner60863
 



Originally posted by Prisoner60863
If Sin brings death both physical and spiritual, and Jesus did not sin, How did he die a physical death? was there death in the garden of eden before sin?


The physical death of Jesus was so that he can take on our sins and WE wouldn't have to suffer through it.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 03:12 AM
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reply to post by Prisoner60863
 

If Sin brings death both physical and spiritual, and Jesus did not sin, How did he die a physical death? was there death in the garden of eden before sin?
Jesus was "made sin for us" because it is a 'law' that cursed is anyone hung on a tree.
Jesus was put on that tree by the enemy, the enemy of God and of us. He didn't put himself on the cross, he was forcibly put there, but he put himself in the situation of that being a possibility when he chose to leave heaven and to be born a man.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 03:20 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Prisoner60863
 



Originally posted by Prisoner60863
If Sin brings death both physical and spiritual, and Jesus did not sin, How did he die a physical death? was there death in the garden of eden before sin?


The physical death of Jesus was so that he can take on our sins and WE wouldn't have to suffer through it.


Um...why was his DEATH necessary at all?



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 03:42 AM
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reply to post by mrperplexed
 

Um...why was his DEATH necessary at all?
It counterbalances the deaths of over one million Jews that were the collateral damage when the old system of worship was taken down with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 03:45 AM
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reply to post by mrperplexed
 


I was being sarcastic.

I said :



The physical death of Jesus was so that he can take on our sins and WE wouldn't have to suffer through it.


But obviously that is another LIE since we still DO suffer through a physical death.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by mrperplexed
 

Um...why was his DEATH necessary at all?
It counterbalances the deaths of over one million Jews that were the collateral damage when the old system of worship was taken down with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.


Counterbalances? Why did their need to be counterbalancing?

(And I am not being snarky, it is a sincere question)
edit on 26-2-2013 by mrperplexed because: addition



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 04:10 AM
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reply to post by mrperplexed
 

Counterbalances? Why did their need to be counterbalancing?

(And I am not being snarky, it is a sincere question)
These are really tough issues to get through and any possible answer is going to present more problems, so I'm not suspicious of any snarkyness, and I wouldn't even like it if anyone just accepted my answers.
These are things I've hurt my head over repeatedly and are not flippant even if they sound like it. It is like every two words I write has behind it at least a whole book that I studied on that particular subject.
This is something that has been studied and debated and are really important and why they were discussed over and over in the New Testament.
Jesus was handed over to the enemy to evoke outrage and to bring down the vengeance of heaven to destroy god.
The Temple of Jerusalem was unrivaled in the world for sheer size, and slender. The god of the mount of Zion was, the god of this world.
edit on 26-2-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by Prisoner60863
If Sin brings death both physical and spiritual, and Jesus did not sin, How did he die a physical death? was there death in the garden of eden before sin?


don't you see? you are jesus. he is you.
'no-one gets to the kingdom of God except through me.'
me is me for me and you for you.

jesus himself is an archetype and a fictional construct.
it is all allegorical. nothing is literal.
edit on 26-2-2013 by OutonaLimb because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 06:48 AM
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Originally posted by mrperplexed

Um...why was his DEATH necessary at all?


Because of the blood sacrifice. That's what Jesus meant when he said that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. He fulfilled the Law of Blood Sacrifice. He did not abolish the Law of Moses. (This is where a lot of Christians come to disagree with me)



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 07:27 AM
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reply to post by mrperplexed
 


Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about.

The souls here now, could possibly be here to be a witness.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by ccseagull
 


Is Jesus a prophet (a perfect human which God speaks to him) like Abraham or something else ! is your view a view of a christian !? I know there are some christians who regard Jesus as God.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 10:36 AM
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reply to post by mrperplexed
 


Righteousness towards God was from the beginning of time .



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by LazarusTsiyr

Originally posted by mrperplexed

Um...why was his DEATH necessary at all?


Because of the blood sacrifice. That's what Jesus meant when he said that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. He fulfilled the Law of Blood Sacrifice. He did not abolish the Law of Moses. (This is where a lot of Christians come to disagree with me)


Why would a merciful, just God require any type of sacrifice or death at all? You can see why that makes no sense right?

On the other hand, I understand how powerful a statement it is that Jesus died for our sins.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 11:19 AM
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Jesus came to earth in human form as a complete human. He endured the same temptations we all do. And this is why Jesus knows our own suffering, over and above his all knowing. He lived as us.The only thing is that he was a perfect man and so did not sin. And because he was perfect he was able to stand in our place on the cross while God distanced himself from Jesus to see if he was worthy enough.
reply to post by ccseagull
 


I think you should reconsider what you have stated here, you claim that Jesus was a perfect man. How can you prove that in any way, if you want to use bible reference just remember these words, "he who is without sin cast the first stone" I don't recall Jesus casting any stones.

I cannot deny the existence of Christ the redeemer but I think it is about time people realize that he was just a man trying to make a difference and his endeavors made such an impact in his time that legacies where written on behalf of him.

Almost like the case of the broken telephone when a story gets blown out of proportion as it travels around. Jesus did no write the bible and he did not create Christianity. He was just a kind man trying to make a difference in a very harsh environment. Just do a bit of research on Jewish laws and you can imagine the violence and inequality practiced in those times. Each era has a small group of strong minded leaders that stand against hypocrisy towards the masses.

Good things



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by FreeThinkerbychoice
 


You can believe what you want . Your Freethinker by choice tells me that you do not like the burdens of the Gospel and seek to free yourself of them . You are wanting not to believe in Jesus, but you aren't quite sure are you ?



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by LazarusTsiyr
 


Hey LazarusTsiyr, as a heathen athiest agnostic I have a few questions


I find this whole topic of faith and religion quite fascinating, I myself was raised Mormon. However, once I reached a certain age I realized that me and "faith" did not exactly mix; even as a child I did not really "feel" anything special when praying or reading the scriptures.

The reality of nature requires no faith to observe, as evidence exists to explain it. So why would God create a universe of for us to explain, but give no evidence for his existence as creator?

One may argue that "faith" is part of a test, to prove to him who is worthy. However, I find this argument quite odd.

Why would God require anything from us?

You said in a previous post that we were "created to worship him". Why? And if so why test us through faith?

A big part of this "test" is what I like to call "The Deception". This deals with Lucifer (and his Angels/Demons), who exists by the will of God (correct?). Satan actively works to undermine the work of God, despite God having the power to eliminate him from furthering temptation. This paradox led mormons to beleive that Lucifer was part of the Plan of Salvation, as if he did not tempt Eve then the Fall would have never taken place and Christs sacrafice would not have been necassary.

So I guess my question to you is, why does Lucifer exist?

Now on to questions of morality.

Many Christians, or should I say Abrahamic theists (for those who do not conform to any specific church) beleive that Gods morality is superior to ours. This may be the case, but I do not see how. For example, why was not slavery forbidden in the Ten Commandments? Or rape? Or the killing of children in the time of war? Why were these things seemingly condoned (perhaps not rape however it could be argued) in the past, but are now looked at as forbidden and wicked by the those who worship said god.


Exodus 22:18 Do not allow a sorceress to live.


Is this not a command from god to kill?

I ask this because if Gods morality is ultimate and perfect, why would it have changed with the passage of time?

That being said I contend that human morality (while seemingly imperfect) is potentially greater than said gods. God condemns for eternity those who do not worship him, because he as creator claims he has the right to. However, no compassionate human if given the powers of said god would necassirly do such a thing, I say this because I would not.

I beleive in punishment for a crime, but an eternal punishment of torture is something that not even humans would implement. If a murderer sentenced to life is rehabilitated, is he not deserving of some comapassion?

One may argue that Gods ways are beyond ours. But why does he not simply describe these "ways"? Like why must Hell exist? Or why "must" we worship him?
edit on 26-2-2013 by Openeye because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by Openeye
 


Openeye... Im REALLY looking forward to hearing the responses to your questions... I find them all very well phrased.

Do you mind if I borrow your questions for another thread?



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by mrperplexed
 


Originally posted by mrperplexed
Why would a merciful, just God require any type of sacrifice or death at all? You can see why that makes no sense right?

Ever see a film called Deja Vu?


"Satan reasons like man, but God thinks of eternity."


Life doesn't seem to make much sense because we only see it from one small perspective.

God sees EVERYTHING.

How much sense would it make if God told you to murder your own son?

God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation.

God causes Abraham to wait 25 years for this promised son, and now He tells Abraham to kill him?

That makes no sense!

This son was the very fulfillment of God's promise and yet God tells him to KILL him?

Makes NO sense at ALL.

It only starts to make sense when you fast forward into the future and look at it from GOD"S viewpoint when He would sacrifice HIS own son on this very same mountain.

Only THEN can you see that it paints a picture of how Abraham's willingness and obedience to sacrifice his son would open the door for God to sacrifice His own son for US.

By that single act of obedience all nations would be blessed through the Messiah who would be one of his own descendants.





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