The Athiest and The Ape

You are what you believe you are.

Originally posted by Krazysh0t
Why do these discussions always concern being atheist or Christian? I'm agnostic. I don't disbelieve in God, but I certainly don't believe in him either. Basically it boils down to evidence for me. There are too many inconsistencies in the bible (like how the OT God and the NT God are so different in character that they are practically different "gods" if you will) and not to mention, many of its stories can be traced back to stories and myths from other, earlier religions. That being said, the bible is a book written and edited by man and if God does exist and evidence surfaces indicating as such, I would be more than willing to open up my beliefs to Him.

Sorry rant over, I just hate how my mindset is always left out of this discussion and you are either for or against His existence.

edit on 9-2-2013 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

You don't believe in God but don't believe in him either. So I'm trying to get this in my head. You think he might exist but are waiting for him to prove himself to you?

So if God doesn't exist that means evolution is true. What requires more faith? A creator who is a spiritual being living in another dimension in a way a human being cannot understand properly, or that you came (ultimately) from a bug in a swamp after a big bang of stuff which didn't exist because time and space only came into being after the bang.... (sounds a lot like creation really)

Evolutionists have waaaaaay more faith that I do believing in a Creator being who is not human in form nor exists in our plane of dimension and doesn't show himself the way we humans would like because he set the boundary of faith 99% of the time. The weird part is, if God is God, why do some idiots try to understand him with their puny minds... that's just ridiculous, futile and small minded

So my suggestion is if you struggle with the issue of faith (the only way 'God says' he can be reached) then you cannot possibly believe in evolution either. This is because the level of faith required for evolution is far greater than that of a creator.

You are stuck in the middle. man, what a horrible horrible place to exist.

Decide on one, live your life and take the result like a man

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Seektruthalways1

 

I am not aware of other religions that support evolution with their own doctrine, but yes there is Catholic sects that do use that. Its just a compromising group of believers who don't want to truly stand up for the Word, but cower and give in to big groups like evolution speaking people.

What is so frustrating is that I'm sure evolution can be proven in a lab. There are bugs that live only a day, so they have to quickly mate in order to pass on their genes to the next generation. I don't know what they are, so I'll use a common housefly as an example. Flies squirt liquid out of their proboscis to liquify what they eat. If that food source (say sugar) is under a plastic shelf with tiny holes in it the fly would have to stick its proboscis through these holes. But, what if the shelf is raised just a little from time to time? Would the proboscis on these flies grow longer and longer with each generation in order to get at the sugar? I think it would. Ergo, evolution. Or, some flies would die out from having too short of a proboscis, leaving the better equipped flies to mate and pass on their genes. That is still evolution, and I think these changes can occur within a very short amount of time for us to actually see the changes.

I don't think adaptation is out of the question. When we work with E. Coli and manipulate various conditions, after a thousand generations we still have...E. Coli. Same goes for fruit flies, after a thousand generations we can breed wings off of them or change various characteristics, but they are still...fruit flies. This is call biological stasis. Now, if we can take a bacterium and evolve it (through a billion generations) into something which is different from its "kind", such as a multicellular life form (not through genetic splicing as this is not a natrual process), evolution would then be varified. Until then, evolution as a theory is untested, and adaptation is the only observation we can truely verify and replicate.

reply to post by pacifier2012


You should read my followup post. I explain my position more clearly. I'm not stuck in the middle. I have come to my decision after careful deliberation. I don't understand why you would have to believe in God but not evolution of vice versa. You give an ultimatum like I have to decide between the two. This makes no sense, since evolution is an answer to how and God is an answer to why. I just want to keep an open mind and feel that we haven't ever disproved God just as much as we haven't proved Him as well. I also do not think the bible is the true source of God since it was written and edited by man.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I must thank you for you post. This has opened my mind to new possibilities. I do not like to be close minded about things and I feel I may have misjudged the situation. If i am an agnostic atheist then so be it. I just want to be clear that I am used to seeing agnostics distinguish themselves separately from atheists. Maybe it is my lack of understanding of the matter. I will definitely take this into consideration.

reply to post by alfa1

The solution to the whole subject is very easy, I would advise all those concerned to obtain the book "Slave Species of the Gods ". The secret history of the Anunnaki and their mission on earth. By Michael Tellinger. This explains ALL you need to know. In my opinion , and founded on my experience as a Christian Minister and Counsellor for many years . I would recommend it should be taught as compulsory reading in schools to replace that which is considered religious !

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. And the Earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And Satan said, "It doesn't get any better than this."

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit," and God saw that it was good.

And Satan said, "There goes the neighborhood."

And God said, "Let us make Man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle, and over all the Earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the Earth." And so God created Man in his own image; male and female created he them. And God looked upon Man and Woman and saw that they were lean and fit.

And Satan said, "I know how I can get back in this game."

And God populated the earth with broccoli and cauliflower and spinach, green and yellow vegetables of all kinds, so Man and Woman would live long and healthy lives.

And Satan created McDonald's. And McDonald's brought forth the 99-cent double cheeseburger. And Satan said to Man, "You want fries with that?"

And Man said, "Supersize them." And Man gained 5 pounds.

And God created the healthful yogurt, that woman might keep her figure that man found so fair.

And Satan brought forth chocolate. And Woman gained 5 pounds.

And God said, "Try my crispy fresh salad."

And Satan brought forth Ben and Jerry's. And Woman gained 10 pounds.

And God said, "I have sent thee heart healthy vegetables and olive oil with which to cook them."

And Satan brought forth chicken fried steak so big it needed its own platter. And Man gained 10 pounds and his bad cholesterol went through the roof.

And God brought forth running shoes and Man resolved to lose those extra pounds.

And Satan brought forth cable TV with remote control so Man would not have to toil to change channels between ESPN and ESPN2. And Man gained another 20 pounds.

And God said, "You're running up the score, Devil." And God brought forth the potato, a vegetable naturally low in fat and brimming with nutrition.

And Satan peeled off the healthful skin and sliced the starchy center into chips and deep fat fried them. And he created sour cream dip also. And Man clutched his remote control and ate the potato chips swaddled in cholesterol. And Satan saw and said, "It is good." And Man went into cardiac arrest.

And God sighed and created quadruple bypass surgery.

And Satan created HMOs.

Originally posted by BillKumarbi
reply to post by alfa1

 

The solution to the whole subject is very easy, I would advise all those concerned to obtain the book "Slave Species of the Gods ". The secret history of the Anunnaki and their mission on earth. By Michael Tellinger. This explains ALL you need to know. In my opinion , and founded on my experience as a Christian Minister and Counsellor for many years . I would recommend it should be taught as compulsory reading in schools to replace that which is considered religious !

The masses, and I don't use the term derogatorily, are so heavily programed that it would be asking the impossible to snap them out of it without forcing some kind of catalytic paradigm upon their subconscious. A Michael Tellinger enthusiast employed to teach in every grade school would not do the trick. Being right about something means nothing these days. Your post despite its merits and good intentions is as impotent as this one I am wasting energy writing is.
So the solution is not as easy as you propose. Your insistence that it is can only lead to frustration and , with respect, there is more that enough frustration in the world already.

Belief, what is belief, you either know you know something or you don't. Anybody buying in anything that is not of them, who think they know anything is an egotistical maniac and the only reason we know about these creationist and apes is because its always the ones that are least confident in what they are and what they know,so they project a loud voice to cover their insecurities. Chances are they own a dog as well.

I believe in god and I also don't - not contradictory, because I can't sit here and tell you about something I have no proof of, this would be illogical,, faith and wisdom are supreme to such things. Humans are always looking for the supreme math equation to solve the universe.

Don't forget, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist, got it? Thats called science buddy, real real science formulas.

reply to post by Juran


Incorrect my friend, I tuned in to what lies between the lines you write before I even read the second half which, to my dismay, you stated you had wasted your time on. so thanks for sharing your wisdom with me, it crept through your post anyways, the only people wasting time are those than have no understanding.

Originally posted by BillKumarbi
reply to post by alfa1

 

The solution to the whole subject is very easy, I would advise all those concerned to obtain the book "Slave Species of the Gods ". The secret history of the Anunnaki and their mission on earth. By Michael Tellinger. This explains ALL you need to know. In my opinion , and founded on my experience as a Christian Minister and Counsellor for many years . I would recommend it should be taught as compulsory reading in schools to replace that which is considered religious !

You're attracted to secrets because, you yourself are still a secret to yourself.

reply to post by Kapablanka

I believe in god and I also don't - not contradictory, because I can't sit here and tell you about something I have no proof of, this would be illogical

You believe God both exists and doesn't exist at the same time. If you wan't to view that as the most rational position all power to you.

But! I think what you really mean is you don't believe in the existence of God, but you believe it's possible God could exist.

In other words, at this moment in time you don't have reason to, but you reason that reason may later come.

You're also an 'agnostic atheist'

Here is an example I have used before. I am curious on your thoughts concerning belief in it.

It's believed by some that intelligent sentient creatures live in huge cities somewhere under Earth's surface.

1. Do you believe this is true?
2. Do you believe this is not true, but it's possible it is true?
3. Do you believe this is not true and it's impossible?

Now let's add something.
These creatures are as hot as the Sun's core. Around 15,000,000 degrees Kelvin.

Do you believe intelligent beings with body temperatures as hot as the Sun's core live under the Earth in huge cities?

1. Yes.
2. No, but it's possible.
3. No, and it's impossible.

My point is there are many things we do not believe in because it either lacks evidence, or we have rational reasons to oppose it. We sometimes believe things are not true but acknowledge it's possible. Sometimes we do not believe things are true and believe them impossible.

Why is it people use this kinda thinking with belief all the time, but it's taboo with God and with religion?

When people ask me why I don't believe God's mind is reflected in the Bible, it's similar to asking me why I don't believe fire golems live under my house. Lack of evidence to support it coupled with rational reasons to oppose it. I have zero reservations saying I don't believe in those fire golems. Nor do I think I am being illogical even if I don't have definitive proof.

My two penneth. Hope it made cents.

Originally posted by Kapablanka
reply to post by Juran

 

Incorrect my friend, I tuned in to what lies between the lines you write before I even read the second half which, to my dismay, you stated you had wasted your time on. so thanks for sharing your wisdom with me, it crept through your post anyways, the only people wasting time are those than have no understanding.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Ho-ho, your understanding, my wizened friend, makes up for those of us who have none. I better continue a little more so that you have more than one line to read between. I was over top in my post, on re-reading it I realize this. I don't know what it is about my brain that always wants to go too far. Too much sugar possibly.

Did you keep reading my post or did you skim through it playboy, I followed up with the statement that wisdom is supreme to belief; wisdom/wise dome. Wisdom is god knowledge, which is a personal affair, or an organized one if one goes the happy meal route, how do you roll

reply to post by Kapablanka


Playboy?

As far as my preferred route. I thought I was clear on that.

Reason. As opposed to faith.

I never said experiential knowledge doesn't constitute valid reason for belief.

If someone through experiential knowledge believes God exists, they cannot at the same time hold the belief God does not exist. That's illogical.

Originally posted by Shema
I want to emphasize the stark stupidity of the never-ending bickering that the two sides engage in. Of course the two actually compliment each other, creation and evolution. and I fully believe that eventually this will have to admitted by both . It is the atheists who should concede ground and admit that creation is highly probable according to all the known facts and they can do it without having to denounce evolution. But for some reason they refuse to bend. I suppose its a collective pride thing, I don't really know.

I'll put aside the fact that you are generalizing people by suggesting evolution supporters have to be atheists and vice versa, and ask you this:

Why do you feel that it is the atheists who should concede? Why do you feel that creation is highly probable according to all the known facts? Which facts would those be? From what I've read on this site, it is the creationists that usually refuse to bend.

It really boils down to fact vs faith. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they vastly different concepts that aren't on equal ground as far as logic goes. It is not stubbornness when an evolution supporter debunks a false fallacious claim posted by a creationist. It is simply sticking with the facts. People aren't debating semantics, they are either claiming ID is fact or that evolution is false. Both statements are wrong and lead to 90+% of all the bickering that goes on between the 2 "sides".

I realize the thread has already gone a couple pages beyond this so if somebody already asked you, I apologize.

I do agree that people should respect each others' beliefs, and some people like to poke fun. But in the name of knowledge and science, and everything it has brought to advance our society; I firmly believe that anybody that presents false information regarding them should be exposed and debunked. If they are ridiculed, so be it. Again, faith and presenting demonstrably false claims are 2 very different creatures. The majority of creationists do actually agree with science and evolution, it's really the fundamentalists that refuse to budge on the issue.

Originally posted by pacifier2012
You are what you believe you are.

Since it is my reality then you are what I believe....

Text If you look into Darwin's findings in the Galapagos, he observed that birds who live on fruit bearing islands had beaks suited for eating fruit. Birds who lived on other islands, whose diet consisted of insects, had sharper beaks well suited for catching said insects.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


@ Destroy

Reading your comment makes me wonder just how your Mr. Darwin can prove your observations. I can't prove Darwin theology wrong but then as the one who has made that claim I wonder if he were alive could he prove that observation?You see Mr. Destroy that the atheist will always cry that the God believers prove their claim of having a God. Actually that's all i am asking you to do. How do you or Darwin know those birds evolved into fruit or insect hunters. Maybe they just simply packed up and moved. You do realize that even butterflies travel hundreds of mile on air currents as supported by the scientific field and just today I read that hundreds of spiders are raining down in Brazil. So is it possible that birds migrate can to suite their ability?

Originally posted by Seede
Reading your comment makes me wonder just how your Mr. Darwin can prove your observations. I can't prove Darwin theology wrong but then as the one who has made that claim I wonder if he were alive could he prove that observation?

You are wondering if Darwin could prove that finches who eat fruit have the beaks for it, or that the insect eaters have beaks suited for that purpose? You can study them yourself. Of course you can prove that by studying the beaks of the creatures. Of course that alone won't prove evolution, but there are thousands of other pieces of data involved as well. If you look strictly at Darwin, you are looking at the very beginnings of the theory. It has evolved drastically since then, which is why it puzzles me when people reference Darwin. That's like referencing Benjamin Franklin when talking about electric engineering. That was one of the very first observations that led to the theory of evolution. That's like suggesting that lightning striking a key on a kite, isn't proof that electricity is conducted through many metals. What if the lightning just chose to strike the key at that time?

I mean, if you're going to argue that these species of finch were each individually created with slightly different beaks and then they found their environment, you'd need evidence of that. It doesn't win by default because you can't observe finches for a million years and watch them slowly change. That also ignores the absolute fact that the earth's environment has changed drastically since life first emerged. Back then, finches of today could not have lived, so couldn't have been part of a giant creation process.

Island evolution is fast and has been known to change creatures, including hominids. Do you think god created hobbits (homo floresiensis) as joke? Miniature elephants and every thing else that gets smaller after migrating to an island? Was god just trying to amuse himself?

You see Mr. Destroy that the atheist will always cry that the God believers prove their claim of having a God. Actually that's all i am asking you to do. How do you or Darwin know those birds evolved into fruit or insect hunters. Maybe they just simply packed up and moved. You do realize that even butterflies travel hundreds of mile on air currents as supported by the scientific field and just today I read that hundreds of spiders are raining down in Brazil. So is it possible that birds migrate can to suite their ability?

Definition of a logical fallacy and non requiter here. The bolded statements are completely unrelated to the topic. Evolution is a fact. If you have evidence against it or for another theory, let's have it.

And yes, birds migrate. If their environment drastically changes, they are forced to migrate or die out. Then the birds will adapt to the new environment. That's how natural selection works.

I would like to submit the fact, which many people tend to ignore, or not know, or forget, that not all people who believe in a Creator are creationists.

I have seen the camp online between people who argue for or against a Creator, and it almost always, well, really, always boils down to the two camps, the extreme fundamentalists (who are in the minority) who are Creationists, and thus believe the entire universe was literally created about 6,000 years ago in six literal days.

The evolutionists on this board and elsewhere find this stand absurd (which it is) and attack it, which it deserves attacking, because it lacks any founding what-so-ever.

But to clump everyone who believes in a Creator with Creationists is a disservice. I have never once had an evolutionist ever challenge anything besides Creationism, aside from an uninformed, but very opinionated, there can be no other option.

There are millions of Christians that believe the earth was created billions of years ago, and that the six days of creation in Genesis are not literal twenty-four hour periods of time.

Actually, the very first first motion-picture with sound and color ever developed talked about this. It is called "The Photo-Drama of Creation," It's about eight hours long and was published in 1914.