The Athiest and The Ape

reply to post by Shema

True, the religious crowd are no better but at least some of them, the less pragmatic, are looking seriously at how evolution and creation could fit together.

Sheema. I hope your attempt to get a reasoned debate started is successful but you are falling into the trap of generalisations that you are trying to avoid.

The fact that life is here means unless life is eternal it must have started somewhere and whether that be creation by chemistry or creation by some god it is a process of creation.

I am not an atheist. I am someone that lives without the need for any god and reject the label given because others do believe in a god.

So the line I quoted from you. I have seen many supporters of evolution that believe in a creator god and have already reconciled the evidence that supports evolution with their faith and just as many that do not beleive in a god that without exception agree that life most llikely started somewhere, somehow but we do not have enough evidence to make a call either way

Just to make this clear yet again. Evolution has nothing to say about creation. Evolution describes the processes that began after creation and has resulted in the diversity we see today and in the fossil record.

Now let’s take bets on how many posts it is until this has to be repeated again.

reply to post by colin42



I hear what you are saying colin42 and I'm coming to the realization that I should have put a lot more thought into this before writing the thread. I wanted to get a reaction going but this isn't the way to do it. Thanks for putting me right and making me see the light.

reply to post by Shema


Let's say you're a Christian. And so you believe not just in a Creator god, but in how the Creation is described in the Christian Bible.

Now there are various other religions. Within their holy books there are also descriptions of Creation.

What happens when they are in total conflict? As a Christian you oppose them because they conflict with your Bible, the Word of God.

Do you see the implication there? You're effectually an atheist yourself towards creationism of those opposing religions.

It shouldn't be that difficult to relate to the atheist when you're honest about your position towards conflicting religions.

Originally posted by Shema
reply to post by colin42

 

I hear what you are saying colin42 and I'm coming to the realization that I should have put a lot more thought into this before writing the thread. I wanted to get a reaction going but this isn't the way to do it. Thanks for putting me right and making me see the light.

Not putting you right just trying to help you avoid the pitfalls.

many of us have tried to get away from the usual circular arguments and everyone that I have seen has failed, including me. I have concluded some enjoy the argument more than they care about the topic

So again good luck but if it fails it wont be your failure its just the way it is here

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Shema

 

Let's say you're a Christian. And so you believe not just in a Creator god, but in how the Creation is described in the Christian Bible.

Now there are various other religions. Within their holy books there are also descriptions of Creation.

What happens when they are in total conflict? As a Christian you oppose them because they conflict with your Bible, the Word of God.

Do you see the implication there? You're effectually an atheist yourself towards creationism of those opposing religions.

It shouldn't be that difficult to relate to the atheist when you're honest about your position towards conflicting religions.

Yes, in a way its a cauldron of ingredients that are never going to mix together so why entertain thoughts that they might if one stirs them enough times. For a moment there I did.... forgive me.

reply to post by Shema

Yes, in a way its a cauldron of ingredients that are never going to mix together so why entertain thoughts that they might if one stirs them enough times. For a moment there I did.... forgive me.

Hey dont give up that easily

Why dont we start in the spirit of your OP and list what various religions and evolution agree on. I'll start

1. We all agree life started on this planet when once there was no life on this planet

the creationists have every right to celebrate God their creator without both sides mocking and slandering each other. Its a disgrace. Lets adopt the golden rule and show respect for each other and not succumb to discrimination and prejudice just because someone is different.

reply to post by Shema


So, when Islamic terrorists slam planes into buildings (killing thousands) we atheists are supposed to say, "Hey, it's okay, they're just expressing their beliefs in a god," ? I don't think so.

Now you will make a statement on how their beliefs are wrong and that this type of worship should be stopped. Well, many claim that you're beliefs are wrong and should be stopped.

reply to post by Shema

Originally posted by Shema

Well, the thread was written to inspire reaction - ahh, no not S&Fs, this is not a trolling exercise.
The atheists have gone on the defensive, not surprisingly, but hardly a peep from the opposite quarter.

FaceLift reacted like a child might; alfal was indignant, DDD felt a need to justify evolution, Lucid Lucy pointed out the contradictions in the thread according to her reading while halfoldman put creation down; BrokenCircles follows a similar vein to halfoldman; Spookycolt sees a fence we could maybe all sit on.

Ah well!. But not to despair. When the dust settles we might yet get some communication going. After all, we all live in hope regardless of where we come from.

I share veins with no one. I simply answered one of your questions. Obviously, since it was not the type of answer that you seek, you chose to ignore it, just as you have ignored most of the others who replied to you.

Due to your response(or lack thereof), the only logical conclusion is that your goal was not at all 'to inspire reaction', but rather to simply find those whom may agree with your opinion.

It is completely pointless to begin a topic for discussion, when you have no intentions of discussing it.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by Shema
to believe in...
to believe in.
feel
feel
It is not a matter of one being right and the other being wrong.

Actually yes, it is indeed about who is right.

Once you get away from imaginary feelings and beliefs inside peoples heads, the actual reality is that in the past a thing actually happened, and it is the duty of humans with curiosity and natural inquisitiveness to work out the truth.
Even if some people are going to be upset when they find they are wrong.

"duty", says who, you, you are not God

Originally posted by alfa1
it is the duty of humans with curiosity and natural inquisitiveness to work out the truth.
Even if some people are going to be upset when they find they are wrong.

Originally posted by Credenceskynyrd"duty", says who, you, you are not God

LOL Are you suggesting that we shouldn't work out the truth?

Originally posted by jiggerj

the creationists have every right to celebrate God their creator without both sides mocking and slandering each other. Its a disgrace. Lets adopt the golden rule and show respect for each other and not succumb to discrimination and prejudice just because someone is different.

reply to post by Shema

 

So, when Islamic terrorists slam planes into buildings (killing thousands) we atheists are supposed to say, "Hey, it's okay, they're just expressing their beliefs in a god," ? I don't think so.

Now you will make a statement on how their beliefs are wrong and that this type of worship should be stopped. Well, many claim that you're beliefs are wrong and should be stopped.

edit on 2/9/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

And stopped they shall be.

Originally posted by BrokenCircles
reply to post by Shema

 

Originally posted by Shema

Well, the thread was written to inspire reaction - ahh, no not S&Fs, this is not a trolling exercise.
The atheists have gone on the defensive, not surprisingly, but hardly a peep from the opposite quarter.

FaceLift reacted like a child might; alfal was indignant, DDD felt a need to justify evolution, Lucid Lucy pointed out the contradictions in the thread according to her reading while halfoldman put creation down; BrokenCircles follows a similar vein to halfoldman; Spookycolt sees a fence we could maybe all sit on.

Ah well!. But not to despair. When the dust settles we might yet get some communication going. After all, we all live in hope regardless of where we come from.

I share veins with no one. I simply answered one of your questions. Obviously, since it was not the type of answer that you seek, you chose to ignore it, just as you have ignored most of the others who replied to you.

Due to your response(or lack thereof), the only logical conclusion is that your goal was not at all 'to inspire reaction', but rather to simply find those whom may agree with your opinion.

It is completely pointless to begin a topic for discussion, when you have no intentions of discussing it.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I absolutely agree with you. Totally pointless.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by alfa1
it is the duty of humans with curiosity and natural inquisitiveness to work out the truth.
Even if some people are going to be upset when they find they are wrong.

Originally posted by Credenceskynyrd"duty", says who, you, you are not God

LOL Are you suggesting that we shouldn't work out the truth?

TRUTH? Whose? Don't you know everyone has their own truth.

Originally posted by Shema


Well, the thread was written to inspire reaction - ahh, no not S&Fs, this is not a trolling exercise.
The atheists have gone on the defensive, not surprisingly, but hardly a peep from the opposite quarter.

FaceLift reacted like a child might; alfal was indignant, DDD felt a need to justify evolution, Lucid Lucy pointed out the contradictions in the thread according to her reading while halfoldman put creation down; BrokenCircles follows a similar vein to halfoldman; Spookycolt sees a fence we could maybe all sit on.

Ah well!. But not to despair. When the dust settles we might yet get some communication going. After all, we all live in hope regardless of where we come from.

there is nothing to "defend"...one side uses scientific method, the other side makes crap up.

reply to post by Shema


I will comment and say, there is another major huge factor that is missing here that definitely is related.

If a person believes in evolution, and that apes are their ancestors, and therefore can assume that the rest of the evolutionary timescale applies, that would mean the person has no eternal soul.

If a person believes in the Creator, Yahuwah, and that we were put on earth for a purpose, and that we do have a eternal soul, and our choice determines whether we go to everlasting life, or everlasting punishment and contempt.

To me, this is the argument that should be talked about. Not right vs wrong. We all got our choice to pick and choose.

But my question is, why do you want to choose and believe you have no soul? Why would an evolutionist want to believe they have no purpose after death? Doesn't that make a person feel worthless? That a purpose to someone with no soul is like an animal, with higher intelligence, to be born, eat and sleep and reproduce and then die into the ground and become another meal for a lower creature. ( should say I forgot to mention animals do have a soul, but just to make a point)

I believe in a Creator, who gave us purpose, and that we have a eternal soul, and that we should make the right choice and not be cast into everlasting pain for being a fool and disobedient.

To believe in evolution, to my understanding, is to say to someone "I don't have anything else inside me,I don't have anything to live for after death,I got but this flabby flesh, bones and a brain to do what I want."

It saddens me to think people would deny to even accept to say they have a soul. Just the mere thought of having as soul, makes me feel special. Why would you choose the latter?

reply to post by Shema

The Atheist and The Ape


###The atheist has only evolution to believe in... and the evolutionist has only the ape to believe in.

The Gulf that divides the creationist from the atheist is so wide that the only logical conclusion is to accept that dedicated atheists do indeed evolve from primates and that dedicated creationists are indeed created by God.

This is not as silly as it sounds. Why would an atheist feel so in tune with the primates unless they are actually related?

And why would a creationist feel so close to God unless they are of God?

It is not a matter of one being right and the other being wrong. Let us agree to agree and put a stop to all the bickering once and for all.

The evolutionists have every right to pursue their ancestral links just as the creationists have every right to celebrate God their creator without both sides mocking and slandering each other.

Its a disgrace. Lets adopt the golden rule and show respect for each other and not succumb to discrimination and prejudice just because someone is different.

Comments?

I actually agree here. I think this is the best way to keep creationists out of science. Let them have their unsubstantiated beliefs so that they may enjoy them as if they were in a playground. Let them stay there and let the real thinkers do the real work away from this de-evolved way of thinking.

reply to post by Shema


You also have to remember that you are an athiest when it come to the GOD claims of the Hindus... the vikings... the egyptians.

It would be nice if you were able to start a reasonable debate after doing some research on the topic.

reply to post by Seektruthalways1



It is very difficult to believe that anyone would deny outright that there is no soul yet not only atheists say this but so do Christians. The bible says from dust we come to dust we return and only God can resurrect the dead on the day of judgement. So no soul to be found there. Where does the belief in an immortal soul arise from? I don't know, do you? I believe in the soul but my belief just comes from my own deductions and inner feelings. I also believe in an omnipotent being and that existence as we know it is pretty much a hologram that comes to us from the cosmos. All bit of a mystery though isn't it?

reply to post by Seektruthalways1

If a person believes in evolution, and that apes are their ancestors, and therefore can assume that the rest of the evolutionary timescale applies, that would mean the person has no eternal soul.

I know that the representatives of the Roman Catholic Church support evolution. I wonder if any other religions have done likewise?

I always find the idea of "God vs. evolution" absurd to say the least.
God is a spiritual belief, an idea in people's head. People invented god out of an emotional and spiritual necessity. You believe in it, then god exists for you only, and only as an idea/feeling. No one will ever be able to walk next to god on the street to prove others that his imaginary friend is real.

Evolution is an attempt to explain the apparition and evolution of life on this planet, through research, observation and logic thinking. Nothing spiritual here. Nobody studies evolution in order to find salvation at the First All Mighty Ape and pray to it to meet in the afterlife. Evolution is NOT a spiritual idea, but a scientific theory. If it is wrong, then we'll rely on another theory, aliens, parallel dimensions, whatever, we'll keep searching. We won't be afraid to find out that we're wrong about evolution; the First Ape won't damn us to hell.

Then how it's possible for god to stand as an argument against evolution, when is not a theory, not a scientific research, not even a valid entity?
Some people say god gave them a wonderful child; but we all know, and they themselves know very well that god wasn't that night in that bedroom. It was only a man, a woman and some bodily fluids exchanged in a well known process called sex or mating, that all living creatures are performing. Now, would someone imagine doctors having a debate about procreation "God vs. sex"? "How children really come into this world?" Would someone imagine a stupid statement like "the atheists have nothing to believe in but sex, because they don't believe god give them children"?


To say that all the atheist have to believe in is an ape it's insulting and only show a limited way of thinking. Not everyone has this need to "believe" in something; that's the point of being atheist.
The problem is that the atheist can understand a believer's position; he also was once a child and believed in Santa. A believer never gave up his belief, never really got over Santa, so he can never understand an atheist point of view.

edit: sorry if it came out a bit tough, no disrespect intended. Hope you get my point.