Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by RedmoonMWC

 

At no point in the Bible is Reincarnation denied.

Yes it is. Hebrews 9:27:

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment

The Old Testament is fairly clear as well that when people die, they go to Sheol, the Kingdom of the dead, in order to wait for the Day of the Lord. Not to mention that at the resurrection of Lazarus, Martha acknowledged that she expected Lazarus to come back at the last day.

This is correct, for this cycle. But, it will start up again for another cycle for man to be here. Each cycle has their own bible.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

so I read that passage the same way that anyone else who's not quote mining reads it, that John is the Elijah for that age, he's playing Elijah's role, as prophesied by Malachi.

Hello Adjensen, Happy New Year!

And to you!

So, Jesus says that John the Baptist "IS" Elijah, but you say he meant that he was the "spirit of Elijah." What does that mean? Could it mean what Jesus was saying here?

It was said that before the Messiah would come "The Prophet", who would herald his coming. Elijah is the representative of the prophets (that's why he's there with Moses at the Transfiguration) but he is not all prophets. John is the prophet of Jesus' time, he is Elijah for that age.

Personally, I think it's irrational to think that John the Baptist wasn't Elijah.

Again, Elijah does appear in the New Testament, after John is born an infant and grows up. At the Transfiguration, Elijah appears in front of at least one of John's former disciples, who doesn't remark on any resemblance. So if John is Elijah, that means that he's reincarnated into a body, then killed by Herod, and subsequently shoved back into his former body.

See the problem there?

I take it that you don't believe in the pre-existence of the soul. But you do believe that the soul is granted eternal life, after living once as a mortal.

Everlasting life, not eternal life. There's no such thing as "eternal life".

You have mused that you think the idea is comforting for those who are afraid of Judgment Day, which hasn't come yet. Don't you think that a merciful God would give a soul, destined to eternity, another chance or two at mortality, to learn from their mistakes and have a chance to find "The Way", before sending them into eternal torture.

Why stop at two chances? Why not send 'em back over and over, hundreds or thousands of times, to keep banging their head against the proverbial wall of morality? Reincarnation makes no sense without accumulated memory. I don't know how I can make that any plainer.

The real fun is when a civilization realizes that they are Spiritual Beings having an experience within the physical. They might have built the structures we don't understand anymore and learned to move on. As a collective we are the hamster in the wheel and the donkey chasing the paper carrot being corralled into tighter and tighter cages by unseen hands. Remember who you really are.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by RedmoonMWC

 

At no point in the Bible is Reincarnation denied.

Yes it is. Hebrews 9:27:

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment

The Old Testament is fairly clear as well that when people die, they go to Sheol, the Kingdom of the dead, in order to wait for the Day of the Lord. Not to mention that at the resurrection of Lazarus, Martha acknowledged that she expected Lazarus to come back at the last day.

The body is appointed once to die. It does NOT say it is appointed once for man to live.

The accumulated memory is stored in our higher selves. It is important for us not to remember our past lives, or at least not some things, as it would interfere with the lesson we come to learn this time.

When we die, our soul goes to a place called purgatory, which is a place where the soul rests and we judge ourselves on how well we learned our lesson. Then we decide if we need further learning on the Earth plane, or if we are ready to ascend to higher dimensions for the next learning process. We keep advancing in knowledge and wisdom until we are ready to be one with God/Source/Creator.

By the way.... doesn't eternal, and everlasting mean the same thing?

Can you say what the kingdom of the dead is like?

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by RedmoonMWC

 

At no point in the Bible is Reincarnation denied.

Yes it is. Hebrews 9:27:

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment

The Old Testament is fairly clear as well that when people die, they go to Sheol, the Kingdom of the dead, in order to wait for the Day of the Lord. Not to mention that at the resurrection of Lazarus, Martha acknowledged that she expected Lazarus to come back at the last day.

This is correct, for this cycle. But, it will start up again for another cycle for man to be here. Each cycle has their own bible.

reply to post by Jameliel

Can you say what the kingdom of the dead is like?

Depends on which dead you are referring to. Dead in Christ, or dead as in physically dead.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by Akragon

 

These are also the same people who use hebews 9:27 as proof that we only live one life... Which also shows they don't know how to read scripture in context either way...

I'm "one of those people". Show me how I don't know how to read Scripture in context.

Sure....

Read Hebrews 9 from the beginning instead of taking the one verse out of context... Don't believe everything you've been taught...the subject was about whether or not Christ had to be sacrificed more than once.

That chapter has nothing to do with reincarnation what so ever.... and as a another member stated.... there is no where in the bible that reincarnation is disproved or denied

reply to post by adjensen


Since we've been over this several times... I guess we'll just leave it at that until the next time this subject comes up...

No point rehatching something we've already agreed to disagree about eh...

Happy new years my friend

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Can a soul be born without a body?

If it could, or if we can somehow fathom how, I think it might be possible that souls can precede the body. But until then, the soul, or whatever it is we think is a soul, must be an epiphenomenon of the body and therefore is born and extinguished with it. Nonetheless it's very difficult to fathom a soul, whether reincarnated or not, outside the context of the body.

Maybe it is the other way around. maybe the a body cannot exist without a life force (soul). maybe the energy of a soul is what gives the body life. your statement seems to contradict, on one hand you seem to believe it's possible and on the other you seem to deny it. i am not very smart so i could be missing something here. what would be the reason for reincarnation if there is no soul? my apologies if i misunderstood.

WildTimes, I can't wait to get back from work to get into what some of the members are posting here. But for now, I have to leave for work.



Keep the thread alive while I'm gone.


Happy New Year to all of you!

reply to post by wildtimes


Anyone who is interested in following this spiritual knowledge of "reality" or ourselves as I have came to understand it; can research and look into Past-Life Regression.

Past Life Regression is a practice, to regress the conscious mind back to a time before it was born into the Earth body it currently inhabits. This enables the indiviudal to see memories of itself in lives it once lived.

The one under the hypnosis will be revealed mentally (psychiclly) a time when it was someone else. Another life the one under regression has lived and long after died to its present incarnation. These will be memories which are locked in the subconscious mind. It takes a practitioner of PL.R to open this door to allow the one under to "see".

My partner has had 3 regressions and I am booking one for myself this year!

Its to much to "debate" about with athiests or skeptics, so that is all my input

Past Life Regression

Originally posted by sled735
By the way.... doesn't eternal, and everlasting mean the same thing?

No.

Eternal means "without beginning or end", essentially, being outside of time. Everlasting means "without end", essentially, will never cease to exist.

Only God is eternal, without beginning or end.

Originally posted by Akragon
No point rehatching something we've already agreed to disagree about eh...

Indeed.

Happy new years my friend

And to you!

reply to post by adjensen

It was said that before the Messiah would come "The Prophet", who would herald his coming. Elijah is the representative of the prophets (that's why he's there with Moses at the Transfiguration) but he is not all prophets. John is the prophet of Jesus' time, he is Elijah for that age.

Not quite. The prophecy is very specific. God promises to send Elijah. Not a prophet like Elijah, he promised Elijah the Prophet.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Again, Elijah does appear in the New Testament, after John is born an infant and grows up. At the Transfiguration, Elijah appears in front of at least one of John's former disciples, who doesn't remark on any resemblance. So if John is Elijah, that means that he's reincarnated into a body, then killed by Herod, and subsequently shoved back into his former body.

See the problem there?

Nope. Elijah was just using a body to carry out his mandate. Elijah never died, right? He was taken to heaven.

2KIngs 2:11
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

I take it that, by this time, Elijah has a kickin "everlasting" body! Certainly he couldn't use his "heavenly body" to do the work that John the Baptist had in front of him! He needed to come in disguise. Besides, if he came as Elijah to prepare the way for Jesus, it wouldn't have worked out, because everyone would be rockin on Elijah, the resurrected prophet of old, and they would ignore the meek and mild son of a carpenter.

Also, John the Baptist had to be killed, as part of God's plan, right? His beheading was no unplanned bump in the road. Elijah needed a disposable body!

See how nicely that works!

Everlasting life, not eternal life. There's no such thing as "eternal life".

Tomayto Tomahto. Gilgamesh couldn't handle "everlasting life" either!

Why stop at two chances? Why not send 'em back over and over, hundreds or thousands of times, to keep banging their head against the proverbial wall of morality?

Now you're getting it! We do come back hundreds, even thousands of times! It may seem to you life ls one big head banging experience, but, was it worth it? Would you do it again? I would. What else do I have to do until the "Day of the Lord"?

Like I said earlier, that wall of mortality is both a blessing and a curse. We want to live forever, but we fill our lives with sadness, guilt and trauma that prevent us from moving forward, through the lessons of the path, during the journey of the "Hero". But we are given chances to recover and do it again until we find our true selves.

Just like learning the piano, one must do boring exercises, over and over, in order to be nimble and confident enough to play the hard, but fun stuff.

reply to post by jiggerj


thanks for making me feel better. i would love it if you visited my intro post.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

it might help you understand some things about me.

Originally posted by windword
Just like learning the piano, one must do boring exercises, over and over, in order to be nimble and confident enough to play the hard, but fun stuff.

I don't know why you keep missing this, but you seem to.

Without accumulated memory, reincarnation makes no sense.

How good would you be at the piano if you forgot everything you learned every time you sat down to play?

Whether you sent someone back two times or two million, if they don't carry forth lessons and memories from life to life, they're never going to "progress" except by accident. That was the complaint that I had with Cloud Atlas -- the only character that really changed was the Tom Hanks one, and that was (** spoiler alert **) in his final life, and it was completely random. He didn't become a better person by design or by growth, he became a better person by chance.

Which is the same thing that reincarnation offers.

I did give it a chance -- I studied Hinduism for a while in my 20s, but in the end, none of it made any sense when I actually tried to work through the practicalities.

reply to post by adjensen


The memory of the events of your previous lives are returned to you when you return home...

Your familiar with gnostic texts.... Pistis Sophia states:

A "man who curses" is given a body that will be continually "troubled in heart". A "man who slanders" receives a body that will be "oppressed". A thief receives a "lame, crooked and blind body". A "proud" and "scornful" man receives "a lame and ugly body" that "everyone continually despises." Thus earth, as well as hell, becomes the place of punishment.

You are returned to the physical in the body you deserve...

And since you're also catholic... I believe Wisdom of Solomon is part of your accepted scripture...

It states:

I was given a sound body to live in because I was already good." (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20)

It makes perfect sense... actually its the only logical way to explain why certain things happen

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

The memory of the events of your previous lives are returned to you when you return home...

Which doesn't help you when you're here.

Your familiar with gnostic texts.... Pistis Sophia states:

The Gnostic view of reincarnation isn't the same as yours. It's worse, because it collapsed about 200 years after it started, but they didn't view reincarnation as "progressing."

I was given a sound body to live in because I was already good." (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20)

Wisdom of Solomon is a Jewish text, and many Jews believe in the pre-existence of the soul. I don't know that that notion is incompatible with Christianity, but it's not the same thing as reincarnation -- the Mormons believe in the pre-existence of the soul, but do not believe in reincarnation.

It makes perfect sense... actually its the only logical way to explain why certain things happen

From personal experience, no. Mine is not the life I, or anyone, would have chosen.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
Just like learning the piano, one must do boring exercises, over and over, in order to be nimble and confident enough to play the hard, but fun stuff.

I don't know why you keep missing this, but you seem to.

Without accumulated memory, reincarnation makes no sense.

How good would you be at the piano if you forgot everything you learned every time you sat down to play?

Whether you sent someone back two times or two million, if they don't carry forth lessons and memories from life to life, they're never going to "progress" except by accident. That was the complaint that I had with Cloud Atlas -- the only character that really changed was the Tom Hanks one, and that was (** spoiler alert **) in his final life, and it was completely random. He didn't become a better person by design or by growth, he became a better person by chance.

Which is the same thing that reincarnation offers.

I did give it a chance -- I studied Hinduism for a while in my 20s, but in the end, none of it made any sense when I actually tried to work through the practicalities.

Having a memory of lessons and putting them into practice, or having a memory of lessons and not putting them into practice results in 2 different outcomes...having no memory results in the same outcome as not putting them into practice...not significantly progressing...

Reincarnation is the chance you give yourself (if you want)...if you choose to ignore the chance you give yourself, that is your problem to fix...over as many lifetimes and cycles of your choosing...

The notion that we are to become 'enlightened' in one lifetime, and one lifetime alone, is absurd beyond belief...it contradicts the actions of a loving father to his children...(from a christian perspective)...

...and a film is not life...but life may be a film

A99

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
Just like learning the piano, one must do boring exercises, over and over, in order to be nimble and confident enough to play the hard, but fun stuff.

I don't know why you keep missing this, but you seem to.

Without accumulated memory, reincarnation makes no sense.

How good would you be at the piano if you forgot everything you learned every time you sat down to play?

Whether you sent someone back two times or two million, if they don't carry forth lessons and memories from life to life, they're never going to "progress" except by accident. That was the complaint that I had with Cloud Atlas -- the only character that really changed was the Tom Hanks one, and that was (** spoiler alert **) in his final life, and it was completely random. He didn't become a better person by design or by growth, he became a better person by chance.

Which is the same thing that reincarnation offers.

There is an accumulated memory, on things that are important, that is. We reconnect with loved ones, we continue where we left off on the things that really matter to us, and we fall back into old habit that still need to be mastered.

I have many examples of personal growth through the remembering of something that occurred in a past life, as it relates to a present time situation, but I won't subject you to my "fantasies."

Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I did give it a chance -- I studied Hinduism for a while in my 20s, but in the end, none of it made any sense when I actually tried to work through the practicalities.

No offense meant, but Buddha was to Hinduism as Jesus was to Judaism. Buddha taught "The Way" to free oneself from the "Karmic Wheel" that Hinduism teaches. But the lessons from the Bagavagita are still beautiful.