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Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

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posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 



But, no, reincarnation and collective consciousness, in my view, go hand in hand. ANYTHING BUT mutually exclusive.

Then in my view, if both are a truth. We really cannot know if our memories are our own, or someone else's, except intuitively. Though I suppose this is also where someone could say it is the "higher self" which distinguishes between the two for us. Which, in keeping with the flow of the topic, I suppose, is possible.

As an aside, it is interesting to note, reincarnation, and the collective, present an opportunity, and a bright side so to speak. In that all knowledge, everything ever known or experienced by humans is never really lost. It is all still there, just waiting to be accessed when we reach a level of awareness that is conducive for doing so.




posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
John the Baptist was reincarnated Elijah. That's what I understand as well.

No, he wasn't. Jesus said that John was in the spirit of Elijah, not that he WAS Elijah. Elijah shows up a little later, as Elijah during the Transfiguration, so John couldn't have been Elijah.

Personally, I don't see that reincarnation makes any sense at all in the absence of accumulated memory. I think that people have dreams or thoughts that they romantically link to "previous lives", and that's where some who don't want to believe in judgement find solace.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by wildtimes
John the Baptist was reincarnated Elijah. That's what I understand as well.

No, he wasn't. Jesus said that John was in the spirit of Elijah, not that he WAS Elijah. Elijah shows up a little later, as Elijah during the Transfiguration, so John couldn't have been Elijah.

Personally, I don't see that reincarnation makes any sense at all in the absence of accumulated memory. I think that people have dreams or thoughts that they romantically link to "previous lives", and that's where some who don't want to believe in judgement find solace.


Its known as the veil of forgetfulness. One of the many veils that separate 3D from higher planes of existence. Ones that can be torn down with remembrance!



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



No, he wasn't. Jesus said that John was in the spirit of Elijah, not that he WAS Elijah. Elijah shows up a little later, as Elijah during the Transfiguration, so John couldn't have been Elijah.


You might notice the transfiguration was written about in Matthew 17... while the beheading of John happened in chapter 14...

The same holds true in Marks gospel... the transfiguration occurred in chapter 9... while the beheading of john happened in chapter 6

if its set in chronological order, its very possible...




posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by ItDepends
 



It is a concept based from religious tenets, the oldest being centered in Hinduism and Buddhism and even a number of Native American tribes believe in an after life.

Maybe not. The Aborigines believe in a form of reincarnation, and they go back 40,000 to 60,000 years.


The essential part is the fact that Aboriginal people identified with the power that had created them. In fact individuals were a reincarnation or an embodiment of a particular and identifiable spirit or power.

Source...
Not the best source, but the only one I could find quickly.

So who knows, they may be at least partly responsible for the variations of it in modern history.


Thanks Klassified!! I did not know about the Agoriginies belief systems. However the article does say:

The Bottom Line Aboriginal Spirituality has close ties in at least many respects with the mainstream religions


Apparently:

The Aboriginals believe that the 'world' was created in the Dreamtime by ancestral spirits such as heroes and heroines or creators


But I don't want to split-hairs. They had somewhat of a belief system that through their dream-like state, made them beleive in reincarnation. But this is not proof.

I'm okay with that!



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by fourthmeal
Its known as the veil of forgetfulness. One of the many veils that separate 3D from higher planes of existence. Ones that can be torn down with remembrance!

That's what doesn't make any sense. How is one supposed to "progress" if the first thing that they have to do is figure out that they're reincarnated, figure out what they knew before, figure out what they need to do this go-around, and finally get it done.

That's a ton of overhead for the actual "get it done" part. If reincarnation was truly a directed process, there is no reason for the "remembering" part, so it's unnecessary, and if it's unnecessary, then either reincarnation isn't directed (making "progress" a non-sensical concept,) or it doesn't exist.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 

I think the confusion sets in when people read these verses out of context...

Matthew 17:11-13

11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.”
13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.


...from this one.

Luke 1:17

He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
edit on 12/31/2012 by Klassified because: edit



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Can a soul be born without a body?

If it could, or if we can somehow fathom how, I think it might be possible that souls can precede the body. But until then, the soul, or whatever it is we think is a soul, must be an epiphenomenon of the body and therefore is born and extinguished with it. Nonetheless it's very difficult to fathom a soul, whether reincarnated or not, outside the context of the body.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
if its set in chronological order, its very possible...


So, on the one hand, we have Jesus saying that John is in the spirit of Elijah, and John refuting someone who asked him directly if he was Elijah. Then we have the physical appearance of Elijah, as Elijah, at the Transfiguration.

On the other hand, we have to come to the conclusion that both Jesus and John were wrong on the subject, that Elijah was in Elijah's form in his own time, was assumed into heaven, was born as John, as an infant, grew up, was beheaded, and then appeared in Elijah's form (not as an infant or toddler, one would assume,) not John's, at the Transfiguration.

The second seems like a pretty unlikely scenario, while the first doesn't rely on anything other than the assumption that John was a prophet, and Elijah's spirit could take form at the Transfiguration.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by fourthmeal
Its known as the veil of forgetfulness. One of the many veils that separate 3D from higher planes of existence. Ones that can be torn down with remembrance!

That's what doesn't make any sense. How is one supposed to "progress" if the first thing that they have to do is figure out that they're reincarnated, figure out what they knew before, figure out what they need to do this go-around, and finally get it done.

That's a ton of overhead for the actual "get it done" part. If reincarnation was truly a directed process, there is no reason for the "remembering" part, so it's unnecessary, and if it's unnecessary, then either reincarnation isn't directed (making "progress" a non-sensical concept,) or it doesn't exist.


The journey of remembering (having experiences brought to you so you may understand your Self) is the whole thing.

I had issues with this as well until I realized (at a deeper level) that it is journey, not the destination, that grows the soul. Like playing a new video game for the first time, over and over different games. You learn a LOT more than just playing the same game again and again.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by ItDepends
 

Agreed. The only reason I even mentioned it was because your comment made me remember the Aborigines. So I thought it would be an interesting tidbit for the thread. Happy new year.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


IF very few people know exactly who they were before incarnation.... why would John be any different?

Perhaps he was blessed with the same gift as Jesus was.... that being retention of his memory before incarnation?

Yes John denied being Elijah... Jesus knew better...

He said specifically this IS Elijah...

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.




posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
That's what doesn't make any sense. How is one supposed to "progress" if the first thing that they have to do is figure out that they're reincarnated, figure out what they knew before, figure out what they need to do this go-around, and finally get it done.

That's a ton of overhead for the actual "get it done" part. If reincarnation was truly a directed process, there is no reason for the "remembering" part, so it's unnecessary, and if it's unnecessary, then either reincarnation isn't directed (making "progress" a non-sensical concept,) or it doesn't exist.


I agree with you, adjensen. That makes complete, logical sense. I am not trying to discount what others believe, as they have pursued great research on this subject.

However, and I don't mean to be trite, but, it just doesn't make much sense for a Creator to create the human race for the purpose of living and reliving and reliving....to what end?? To reach some higher state for ascension? I can accept that there are many subscribers to this way of thinking. But, the earth has over 7 billion people on it, I cannot fathom that the creator has sent all these people into the world to keep reliving and learning to achieve some state of ascension. As far as I know, there never has been any physical/metaphysical proof of anybody simply ascending in mind, body and soul.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen
 


14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

The only people who think that this has Jesus saying that John is the reincarnation of Elijah are people who are rooting around, looking for evidence of reincarnation in the Bible.



This is Elias, which was for to come - This should always be written Elijah, that as strict a conformity as possible might be kept up between the names in the Old Testament and the New. The Prophet Malachi, who predicted the coming of the Baptist in the spirit and power of Elijah, gave the three following distinct characteristics of him. First, That he should be the forerunner and messenger of the Messiah: Behold I send my messenger before me, Malachi 3:1. Secondly, That he should appear before the destruction of the second temple: Even the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, ibid. Thirdly, That he should preach repentance to the Jews; and that, some time after, the great and terrible day of the Lord should come, and the Jewish land be smitten with a curse, Malachi 4:5, Malachi 4:6. Now these three characters agree perfectly with the conduct of the Baptist, and what shortly followed his preaching, and have not been found in any one else; which is a convincing proof that Jesus was the promised Messiah. (Clark's Commentary on the Bible)
edit on 31-12-2012 by adjensen because: tag repair



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by fourthmeal

I had issues with this as well until I realized (at a deeper level) that it is journey, not the destination, that grows the soul. Like playing a new video game for the first time, over and over different games. You learn a LOT more than just playing the same game again and again.


Well I would certainly agree with you that 'Life' here and now is a journey. It is meant to be lived, learn, love and experience all the wonders we 'choose' to seek during our journey of life. I know that is simplistic, however, we humans have a way of over complicating things!


What ever happened to "You only have one life, live it to your fullest" or "Live each day like it's your last".

I think it is honorable, and I too, want to continue to learn, investigate, remain teachable in this lifetime. I believe, I have faith. (oh what is that?)

Definition: Faith is belief with strong conviction; firm belief in something for which there may be no tangible proof; complete trust in or devotion to. Faith is the opposite of doubt.


So, I can have doubt in reincarnation, but faith in Heaven. Is that okay?



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by ItDepends

Originally posted by adjensen
That's what doesn't make any sense. How is one supposed to "progress" if the first thing that they have to do is figure out that they're reincarnated, figure out what they knew before, figure out what they need to do this go-around, and finally get it done.

That's a ton of overhead for the actual "get it done" part. If reincarnation was truly a directed process, there is no reason for the "remembering" part, so it's unnecessary, and if it's unnecessary, then either reincarnation isn't directed (making "progress" a non-sensical concept,) or it doesn't exist.


I agree with you, adjensen. That makes complete, logical sense. I am not trying to discount what others believe, as they have pursued great research on this subject.

However, and I don't mean to be trite, but, it just doesn't make much sense for a Creator to create the human race for the purpose of living and reliving and reliving....to what end?? To reach some higher state for ascension? I can accept that there are many subscribers to this way of thinking. But, the earth has over 7 billion people on it, I cannot fathom that the creator has sent all these people into the world to keep reliving and learning to achieve some state of ascension. As far as I know, there never has been any physical/metaphysical proof of anybody simply ascending in mind, body and soul.


Your last statement brings to mind one Egyptian in antiquity that was reported to do such a thing. But it is rare beyond mention in history. Oh man I need to break out my research on this and dig in and share.


Backing up a bit, my theory (which comes from researching esoteric material for years now) that there are facets of existence here to understand, from a higher perspective. 7 billion fragments of oversoul experiencing itself subjectively, for sake of the experience. At higher dimensions there is no separation.

The "jobs" I've seen of souls incarnating onto Earth over the many hundreds of thousands of years, in no particular order:

1. Raise the light on Earth so that she may Ascend. It would not be possible to achieve her Ascension without us. We are her helpers (or at least some of us are), anchoring light and raising the vibration.

2. Raise the vibration of humanity to help serve case 1, but also all of humanity (as souls choosing to have the experience)

3. Some come here to be the antagonist. This may have gone too far, as many of us feel.

4. To preserve and resurrect the various DNA structures of other races via ours, which is a living carrier and during evolution has proven to be very robust. An experiment of sorts but not a free-will violation.

5. School! For many, class is in session.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:40 PM
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Here is my thread on reincarnation that I did back in March. All my views are there with references.... and plenty of opinions from others.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

I will come back later to post individual posts here. I have to get ready for work now.


Happy New Year to all!

S&F, OP!
edit on 12/31/2012 by sled735 because: add thread link



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by fourthmeal
Like playing a new video game for the first time, over and over different games. You learn a LOT more than just playing the same game again and again.


....i meant to comment on this idea earlier, sorry for using more space. I get the analogy of reaching different levels in a video game to reach an end and get that big YOUR THE GREATEST (exaggeration of course), when you complete the game. (actually, for what you are trying to describe, a pretty good way to think about it)

So no ill-intentions here, we'll just simply agree to disagree.


I doubt in reincarnation. I just don't believe that the Creator would create a seemingly endless cycle of birth and rebirth just to find our way to that last level of the game, umm, I mean life and now we are accepted by the Creator to join him.

I 'choose' to believe based upon my readings, research, living of life, that our Creator gave us life to live in one lifetime. To make the most of it, to love one and other, to live Christ-like (I don't want to debate theology here, that would be off-topic) and to use our gifts to the fullest. That is what I believe.....but my journey continues, and I'm lovin' it!!



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by ItDepends
 


I doubt we are disagreeing at all, but merely viewing a perspective of the very same things from two different views. And that is the whole of the human experience all wrapped up into one sentence with a pretty bow!

And my replies to you are not in argument. Not at all. Just conversing my viewpoint and providing what I hope is something triggers a remembrance in you, so that you may know your Self. And vice versa, I accept that when you post to me, what I read and the vibe I get is for my Self to experience, so that I may know my Self as well.


LOL, does this make any sense? I'm having way too spiritual of a day to be at work, lol.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by fourthmeal
 


L
L, Yes, it makes complete sense. I appreciate your civil discussion, and your viewpoint and YOUR journey of SELF. We DO probably agree on more than which we differ. All in all, a discussion and room for knowledge and consideration. Peace





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