Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

Originally posted by DoubleEE
i believe there has to be a reason we exist.

respectfully, while I respect your right to your belief, my question is why must there be a reason? What proof is there that we are more special than any other living being/ We are lucky enough to be aware. But can't that just be something that has happened?
I don't see that we are more important than say, my pet dog.

And are other life forms, eg animals (my pet dog) and plants (my tomato bush) part of this reincarnation concept?

NDE's from people like Colton Burpo and Marietta Davis, etc really bring up some major questions when it comes to reincarnation:

"When Colton Burpo was four years he was having surgery in the hospital for a burst appendix. While he was in surgery he apparently had some sort of out of body experience and could see what his parents were doing. He witnessed that his dad was praying and his mom on her cellphone. Both parents say they have no clue how he knew that, but that it’s absolutely true. And the story just gets more interesting from there.

"Colton, still 4 years old, told his mother “you had a baby die in your tummy didn’t you”, which completely shocked them both because they had never told him about their miscarriage. They asked him how he knew and he said that he met his sister in Heaven and she told him what happened."

Apparently during the same surgery Colton went to Heaven where he recounts how he met his grandfather who he had never known, who he later recognized in photos. The interesting thing is that he didn’t recognize photos of his grandfather as an old man with glasses, which is how everyone knew him, but rather as a young man. Colton’s father literally had go find a photo of ‘Pop’ as a young man before Colton was able to recognize him. Now that’s pretty wild.

Four year old met his miscarried sister in Heaven /// Video

"Whenever an infant dies on earth, the guardian angel who brings it here considers all of its abilities and places it with others of similar ability. According to its artistic, scientific or social abilities, each is given a home best suited to the development of its gifts."

"This dome," said my guide, "is the place where all infants from earth are gathered for instruction. The outer buildings are the nurseries where they are first brought, to be nourished by their guardian angel."

"Each one has a similar type of mind to the others, and works perfectly together with them. "The infants are taken out each day, or at special times, to the centre dome for their teaching and development."

"Each angel's task was to prepare the infant for higher existence, bringing it to a holy usefulness for its never-ending life. The angel breathed upon the baby and each breath caused its capacity and life to expand. It instilled holy love and inspiration, for its power came from God. God's life-giving Spirit permeates all angels in heaven."

CAUGHT UP TO THE INFANTS' PARADISE
Trance of Marietta Davis

Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe

Originally posted by DoubleEE
i believe there has to be a reason we exist.

respectfully, while I respect your right to your belief, my question is why must there be a reason? What proof is there that we are more special than any other living being/ We are lucky enough to be aware. But can't that just be something that has happened?
I don't see that we are more important than say, my pet dog.

And are other life forms, eg animals (my pet dog) and plants (my tomato bush) part of this reincarnation concept?

don't recall ever making the assertion that we were more special. in my opinion, i do believe that all things are energy. even inanimate objects can retain energy. i believe all energy is recycled. do i believe everything has an esoteric soul, no. i have specific reasons from a personal standpoint to believe animals do have souls. they have just not evolved spiritually yet. my opinion.

Some scientists argue past live memory is "cell memory" that was passed to us by our ancestors that gives us memories of past lives. This is not correct!
In one case study I read about this person who remembered a past life as a woman that didn't have any children, and she remembered more lives prior to, and, after that one. If it was cell memory, she wouldn't have been able to remember the life of the woman with no children because there was nobody to pass the cell memory to concerning that lifetime.

I think that was in the book Many Lives, Many Masters, but I'm not 100% certain. I've read so many books on this subject I can't remember "what" was "where".

reply to post by Akragon

Do you believe starving children choose their existence? Obviously not.... but either God is a cruel bastard (like the OT shows) or these people have been given what they've created... Even as it says in the bible... you get what you give and the world is messed up and has been since it started... Its the only logical way

you means starving children deserve what they get? That doesnt feel good.
So in a way making someone suffer in hell is cruel of God but suffering here birth after birth is ok as "you get what you give"!!!

WildTimes, I leave for work and come back to 9 pages of posts! That's great!
I hate to respond on page 9 to a post made on page 3 or 4, and everyone seems to be covering all the angles, so I'll leave it with them for now.
If I see anything where I want to throw my two cents in, I'll do it later. I did read up to the current posts so far, but I need to go get some sleep now.

Hope everyone has a great New Years Day!

Originally posted by sled735
Some scientists argue past live memory is "cell memory" that was passed to us by our ancestors that gives us memories of past lives. This is not correct!

Scientists are the priests of this new religion called "Science"...

With respect to its great contributions to society, I think it is important to make a case that science is really affecting society more like a religion now than a field of study or a resource base of useful information. Many everyday people do not understand it at all and accept ALL its teachings on faith.

Unfortunately some scientists and academic professionals are not so noble and have perpetrated deliberate frauds and cover-ups of important discoveries.

Modern Scientific beliefs are based upon a leap of faith in the big bang theory. It has become a belief system based on faith and therefore another form of religion. Scientists, like priests can explain their beliefs but the everyday people accept it all on faith. Scientists and doctors are the priests of this new religion, getting angry and crying "heresy" when anyone respectfully disagrees with them.

Has Science become a Religion

Science - The Illuminati Religion and Mind Control Tool for the Masses

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

Do you believe starving children choose their existence? Obviously not.... but either God is a cruel bastard (like the OT shows) or these people have been given what they've created... Even as it says in the bible... you get what you give and the world is messed up and has been since it started... Its the only logical way

you means starving children deserve what they get? That doesnt feel good.
So in a way making someone suffer in hell is cruel of God but suffering here birth after birth is ok as "you get what you give"!!!

IMO, those starving children were probably big fat rich people in a previous life that wouldn't throw a morsel to a starving child in a previous life, so they get to experience the "other side of the fence" in this life to balance their karma. We reap what we sow.

Originally posted by sled735

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

Do you believe starving children choose their existence? Obviously not.... but either God is a cruel bastard (like the OT shows) or these people have been given what they've created... Even as it says in the bible... you get what you give and the world is messed up and has been since it started... Its the only logical way

you means starving children deserve what they get? That doesnt feel good.
So in a way making someone suffer in hell is cruel of God but suffering here birth after birth is ok as "you get what you give"!!!

IMO, those starving children were probably big fat rich people in a previous life that wouldn't throw a morsel to a starving child in a previous life, so they get to experience the "other side of the fence" in this life to balance their karma. We reap what we sow.

edit on 1/1/2013 by sled735 because: (no reason given)

what about 1st timer fresh souls as sk0rpi0n pointed the population incosistency. So a soul with Zero karma gets what? At 1st birth?

if everyone believes in reincarnation the world would be worst off.
Because this theory believes in passive learning, too passive.
There is minimal motivator to do good, and the one that is, is neutralised by "why to worry we have unlimited chances"
so yes good people believing in reincarnation would be fine but not the other group.
And the fact that the idea of reincarnation exists from thousands of years doesnt make it valid. Death existed longer and reincarnation could be nothing more than a coping mechanism for it.
"when people die they become stars" is not necessarily true. But means a lot to a child who lost a loved one. Adults just need a better story.

A Case Against Reincarnation:

I really have to go by what I have experienced and that is spirits mode of of communication is mental telepathy. They don't have their body as we do on earth. So they have to communicated through their thoughts.
What reincarnations enthusiast do when they say they have had previous lifetimes is they pick up on is the spirits telling of their existence on earth and people especially in their dream state receive re enactments of that particular spirit's existence when he was on earth. Could be a shock or a trauma that really was important to that spirit.

Reincarnationist pick up on dead spirits thoughts through mental telepathy and say they were such and such in a previous lifetime when in fact they are picking up deceased people's thought patterns.

THE CASE AGAINST REINCARNATION
www.spiritsintheroom.com...

reply to post by jiggerj

The only thing left is our consciousness. I will go way WAY out on a limb with this analogy: If we can take our voices and transfer them onto records, then who's to say that our consciousness (our every thought) isn't being recorded by the universe, where a future (and very sensitive mind) can pick up on those thoughts and claim them as their own? Again, I very much doubt it, but I can't say that it is impossible.

Hey, I really like that analogy!!

Yeah, it's kind of like that. Still drinking my coffee, in that sort of "groggy" state that makes creativity bloom....
The more we discover about physics, the more likely - or at least possible - these things seem.

Another example in my son. When he was a preschooler, he was already a gifted artist. One of his first pencil drawings was of Beethoven at a grand piano, perspective from a ceiling-height view, looking down at an angle.

This kid had never seen a grand piano; yet it had elaborately carved legs, a full keyboard, a raised top; Ludwig had the wig and was wearing a frock coat....
a 3-year old drew this! Without a model. I'm not making this up, either, I have it around here somewhere. Okay, so - I'm not suggesting he's "Beethoven" reincarnated, but...could it be he gleaned a fragment of the man's genius somehow?

He son is also a gifted musician. One day (he was a teen at this point) I came home to find him playing one of the famous pieces.....he was watching a you-tube vid of a person's hands playing the piece....and then reproducing those motions on our own piano. Amazing.

reply to post by adjensen

Without accumulated memory, reincarnation makes no sense.

How good would you be at the piano if you forgot everything you learned every time you sat down to play?

But, you see, adjensen, this is the point. We have accumulated memory.....each of us is born with predispositions to certain facets of physical life; the study of the different "intelligences" or "talents" makes this seem pretty simple to me...

OTOH, are these talents simply "inherited DNA"? My grandmother was a writer. She died before my dad got married. I knew early on I wanted to be - and was - a writer. Had a knack and an irresistible urge to do so.

Again, as I mentioned above here....my son was born with outstanding artistic and musical ability. Okay, his dad is a musician (so am I, but not as much as I am a literary type)....but...
no one that I know of in our ancestry was an artist - very possibly I just don't know about it..
but, from where do we get those innate "talents"?

We DO remember, just not consciously. It would interfere with our doings in this lifetime. We have to actually LIVE the experience. Like being a parent; specifically a mother. You simply can't explain it to anyone, that magical feeling of looking your newborn child in the eye and falling in love. NO WORDS to describe it....one must experience it to get it.

Same with "love at first sight" encounters, or that "you seem familiar" sensation. What is it that makes us feel "zing!" - (and it can be the other way - recognizing someone as an antagonist - without knowing why)....

Do you have any ideas about "karma"?

I'll just post my 2 cents. I believe in the Spiritism doctrine - presented by Allan Kardec, here in Brazil we have a quite big community. Reincarnation is the only dogma found in this "religion" (religion is marked since Spiritsm is first considered a doctrine, a science and then a religion).

The reincarnation could be considered as the process by which the soul learns, we were all created the same and we still are (Jesus said: "my Father still works"). First, the idea of karma is a bit rigid this concept in Spiritsm is wider, deeper and consider a lot more not only the "what goes around comes around" idea. Picture new souls as a child learning and also consider this new soul in a different world, since there are many worlds each one with its level of evolution ("There are many rooms in my Father's house" - There are many books that address this topic in the doctrine). A ignorant soul (not a pejorative term) can not be compared to you and me, since his journey just began.

I could speak a lot about this since this topic is a major one, but it is already great to read through the posts and see a lot of fair discussions. Hopefully, I'll have time to post more ideas and explanations

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I recently got back from an anatomy museum. Looking at specimens of some horribly deformed babies and fetuses... a few thoughts crossed my mind...

- Did those things just grow as a biological masses of flesh, with "life" but no real "soul".
- Were the souls that were meant for those fetuses given a second chance in a different body?

Some say that those "biological masses of flesh" chose to make a quick circuit in and out of physical existence in order to teach something to the living people who were influenced or impacted somehow by going through the ordeal.

And, that yes, those souls then go into another body....maybe even (conceivably) become the mother of a failed fetus...

As for the continuing growth in souls on Earth - it has been postulated that this is only ONE of several destinations for physical existence or spiritual existence...Other planets, other dimensions....
And that right now the Earth's collective consciousness (as we are all portions of the whole) needs to reach a "critical mass" - and that Earth is also poised to make a huge forward leap possible if we all get on board with it.

I'll see if I can find Judy's description of those "what-ifs" and post a linky or two.

reply to post by hoonsince89

Whats the point of your discussion?
Proving its existence?, finding assurance it exists? or just a debate/contribution?

The point? It's one of my favorite subjects of study...
I would be delighted to have even more proof than already exists (via little children remembering and their memories being validated OBJECTIVELY by researchers)....

assurance? Well, so far I'm pretty much convinced....but if I find out one day it is merely fantasy and imagination, then, well, I guess then I'll know....right?

debate/contribution? Both.

Why do you ask?

The only thing I hope to know in the ultimate end is, WHY. God with all his mysterious and strange ways.....Hope he will at some point tell me WHY. Reincarnating to learn? WHY. The same question pops up over and over again for me.

reply to post by logical7

And the fact that the idea of reincarnation exists from thousands of years doesnt make it valid. Death existed longer and reincarnation could be nothing more than a coping mechanism for it.
"when people die they become stars" is not necessarily true. But means a lot to a child who lost a loved one. Adults just need a better story.

It could very well be...as you said in another post a bit ago, "that doesn't feel good."

You are Muslim. Just because the idea of Allah has been around for thousands of years doesn't make it a valid notion, either.

Part of the human condition is this nagging urge to know what in the world we are doing here....
if anything, that is a cruel curse on us. To KNOW we will die....do other species know they will die? If so, we are unable to understand their conception of life and death. It would be far easier to simply not be aware that we, too, will die. And it is natural to want to "feel good" about what comes after death, or about why there is so much strife and suffering in the world...

reply to post by Jameliel

WHY?

Exactly. WHY?? Are we the only species who wonders this?

reply to post by Taunos

I could speak a lot about this since this topic is a major one, but it is already great to read through the posts and see a lot of fair discussions. Hopefully, I'll have time to post more ideas and explanations

I hope you have time, too!!
Thanks for your contribution...
Spiritism, eh? I'll look into that.