Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

reply to post by logical7

true but reincarnation does allow to delay making ammends and reforms, "whats the hurry" and what i believe is that if a belief doesnt influence behaviour and actions then its not a belief just an interesting hobby. And reincarnation actually when put in behaviour encourages passiveness!!

I see anything but passivity among those who believe in reincarnation, who also follow the philosophies that go along with it. What I see is active personal responsibility for growth in their lives, and a desire for peace in the world that they actively participate in bringing about.

I don't see any of that among the the big three. What I see is strife, division, hatred, inequality, and death.

Just my two shillings.

reply to post by adjensen


Hi adjensen, the idea presented is not simple as that. The process of reincarnation and atonement is not a simple issue to unveil. Firstly, I would think that God is a perfect, love and caring being, from that starting point we can agree that His rules and definitions are perfect meaning that He would never be unfair with a child. The forgetting our memory is not a complete wipe, like we see in the books every and each reincarnation (considering we evolved) our moral and intuitive ideas are more pure and good, this animal nature of the human being does not have full control over us.

Forgetting is Gods mercy towards us, you keep (to a certain level) your tastes and abilities. Imagine being a serial killer in some past life and being born with such memory, that would turn impossible a new start, a new possibility to grow and walk to the right direction. Of course, the things you did to others in the past would count and somehow you will atone for that during this or future lives. It is a process of learning and purification.

It is hard to say, but most lessons in our lives are learned through pain and suffering, like the loss of a loved one, an accident or something like that. Usually, those are the things that test our faith and going through those "tests" with perseverance and a humble soul is a major challenge, most of us just get revolted, vengeful or anything along those line and that is the difference.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

What are the lessons that need to be learned? And are they same for each?
How to know them now?

The lessons involve having every possible experience that advances our "soul" to understanding the Divine.

Let me use myself as an example.

I spent 42 years being rather miserable because, though I was successful in life because I live in an age when people like me are well paid, I could not figure out how to have a good relationship with others. Then I met my wife, my soul mate, and we had 4 1/2 years together, every day a joy, before she died of a heart attack. Now I'm miserable because not only am I alone again, but I know how good I had it for a while.

What lesson do I need to learn in this life? Or what did I do in a previous life to deserve this?

What lesson did my wife need to learn, in that she died at the happiest time of her life?

What lesson did her mother need to learn, in having to bury her daughter at such a young age?

What about the rest of her friends and family, who were devastated to lose a woman who was one of the most loving, giving and sharing people they'd ever known?

Contrast all of that with my view that I was born with the inability to interact with others because of the genes of my father, who has similar issues, that I was fortunate to meet a wonderful woman who could put up with (and rather enjoyed, at times) my foibles, and whose own genetic heritage resulted in a fatal heart attack at age 46, around the same age that her father had his first heart attack.

There's a lot less overhead and rationalization with the second view, in my opinion.

reply to post by wildtimes


Exactly, souls do not immediately reborn (in some extreme cases they do, but that is some other conversation and more into religion beliefs). As I pointed is a complex issue and require extreme preparation, to guarantee evolution and not regression. At the spiritual world, after death the soul need time to adapt and recover. The mortal life can be very consuming and depending how you lived this process can be fast or slow. Believe it or not there are hospitals there too, but not the way we have here (again a conversation for another time).

Reincarnation is not an easy topic to approach. If you think after going for a spiritual world where you do not feel pain, your do not get hungry and experience happiness and joy would you be willing to come back and pay your debts with the risk of acquiring some new ones?

reply to post by logical7

true but reincarnation does allow to delay making ammends and reforms, "whats the hurry" and what i believe is that if a belief doesnt influence behaviour and actions then its not a belief just an interesting hobby.
And reincarnation actually when put in behaviour encourages passiveness!!

No, it doesn't.

It encourages virtue - because if you know you will be held accountable (just like with Abrahamic 'Day of Judgment') you are less likely to be destructive.
There's no reason for "eternal torture" - we are all capable of learning. Why would "God" impose an "eternal" life-sentence of torture if he knows we can do better? And if WE know we can do better -

If every toddler who falls over learning to walk has - as punishment - their legs amputated by their parents, what the hell good does that do?? NOTHING! It results only in a bunch of legless toddlers. Can you see??

If you told the child "walk correctly the first time, or I will cut your legs off!", don't you think someone would swoop in and snatch that child away from you so that he or she had at least a CHANCE?

reply to post by adjensen


Hi again adjensen. Nothing I could say here will end your pain and I share it. What I can say is that you can expect to meet your love again, she will be waiting for you there at the other side. Even better I bet she is taking care of you everyday, those bonds do not end with death.

I too have great difficulty to associate with others, but studying this ideas (regarding Spiritism) made me believe in something better. Studying got me to a place where doing my best in my life here will be rewarded later. Doesn't matter what your have in this place (material things), but what you take in your heart.

I don't know what lessons you are learning from this process, but I bet you will understand it some day. Maybe it can bring you some comfort, so on the page 67 of the Spiritism Gospel (83 on the pdf) there is a topic about losing loved ones (premature death). I'll link it here:

Gospel According to Spiritism

Originally posted by Akragon

Honestly who needs to dig through scripture to find proof... Jesus said it specifically....

He says.... IF you can receive it.... meaning IF you haven't been taught otherwise, or even IF you arn't blinded by teachers of men.... John IS Elijah.... and follows it up with the statement ..."He that hath ears to hear, let him hear"

So why can't you hear what hes saying?

Put your religion aside for a second and imagine reading that verse without having any influence from outside sources....

There's only one way to understand it without your religion fogging up your glasses

You're right about what Jesus meant when he said "If you will receive it" (Matthew 11:14). For they had been taught by the scribes that Elijah had to come back in the physical (Matthew 17:10), but Jesus was telling them that John had come in the Spirit of God, the same as Elijah when he was on earth. The same way that the angel came to John's father to tell him that John would come in the "spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17). They both came in the Spirit of God, but Jesus told them that Elijah had already come in the physical (Matthew 17:12).

If you read all of Matthew, chapter 11, you will see that John's mission was different than Elijah's from the standpoint that Elijah paved the way for Yahweh by using violence and killing the prophets of Ba'al (Matthew 11:12), but John would pave the way for Jesus who chose not to use violence to turn people's hearts back to God by way of the Holy Spirit.

Here's what happened when John asked Jesus if they should send fire down from heaven like Elijah did...

Luke 9:51-56

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

So, in essence, the "manner of spirit" in which John was supposed to work was different from the manner of spirit in which Elijah was sent to work.

By the way, whenever you read the words "he that hath ears to hear, let him hear", this means that Jesus is speaking in parables and that the meaning of his words are hidden and not obvious by the way they are spoken. When Jesus said, "this is Elias", he's saying not to take it literally, but to understand it's spiritual meaning.

reply to post by adjensen


adjensen,
I am truly sorry for your pain, my good friend.

I wish I could, but, I can't answer your questions about "why", and I'm sure to you it seems all a horrible accident, and unfair.
Would you like to hear "answers", though? Or do you prefer to be 'miserable' and not try to find some solace?

reply to post by Deetermined

By the way, whenever you read the words "he that hath ears to hear, let him hear", this means that Jesus is speaking in parables and that the meaning of his words are hidden and not obvious by the way they are spoken. When Jesus said, "this is Elias", he's saying not to take it literally, but to understand it's spiritual meaning.

First of all....Hi, Dee.
I'm glad you came to the discussion.

Secondly, regarding your above statement:
He was speaking in parables - which means that EVERY LIVING PERSON has to interpret it in terms of their own soul-consciousness. It's a personal thing; understanding is driven by our soul's level of awareness.

Many who quote the Bible have decided that their interpretation is correct, and everyone else's interpretation is wrong. This is what bothers me.....

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

adjensen,
I am truly sorry for your pain.

Thanks, though it is what it is.

Would you like to hear "answers", though? Or do you prefer to be 'miserable' and not try to find some solace?

No, I don't believe that there are any answers. I just posted it as an example of the irrationality of the thought that we live our lives simply to learn a lesson -- there is too much pain in such a small group of people that was effected by my wife's death (there were several hundred people at her funeral) to say that everyone needed to learn some lesson in that grief.

She died because she had a bad heart, not because "God needed her" (as I heard from some people at her wake) or because she needed to learn what it was like to die in the prime of life, and I needed to learn that, no matter how bad one can feel, there's always something that can make it worse.

reply to post by adjensen

She died because she had a bad heart, not because "God needed her" (as I heard from some people at her wake) or because she needed to learn what it was like to die in the prime of life, and I needed to learn that, no matter how bad one can feel, there's always something that can make it worse.

You truly loved her, though - you experienced the joy of having loved someone, when perhaps that had not happened before.

She had a "bad" heart muscle; okay. But....BUT! She also provided to that multitude of people whose lives she touched, a gift - and her loving you was a reflection of your own worth and value.

We can't really, truly, know what any other soul's journey is about. But when their existence touches ours in a meaningful way, it can lift us up as well as make us realize "it could be worse."

I really don't have the words here to comfort you the way I would like to do.
She STILL loves you. Perhaps just the act of discussing her loss is a means to finding some peace? Maybe?

We value you, here.....
you are valued, adjensen.
Hug to you, my friend.

reply to post by wildtimes

Thank you for the support

Maybe I'm not being clear enough... I'm not saying that I haven't learned anything from this experience, or that good hasn't come from it -- I wrote a blog for about six months after she died and I've had a number of people contact me over the years through that, to say that it helped them, and I continue to talk with them and pray for them, particularly at the holidays, because that's the hardest time for many who lose their wives and husbands.

No, what I question is why I would HAVE to learn that lesson. Why my wife would HAVE to learn the lesson of dying at such a young age, seeing the dreams that she had of the future evaporate... no grandchildren, no retirement, no traveling to the places she dreamed of seeing... heck, just leaving Oscar the dog behind would cause her no end of pain.

I suppose that what I'm really railing against is the supposition that she and I would have chosen these events, as some people believe. Only an insane person would subject themselves to the pain that I've gone through, and seen many others go though. There is no lesson in traumatic grief.

reply to post by adjensen

There is no lesson in traumatic grief.

I think there is, though.

Look, you just said that you have people whom your words have touched; whom you have helped.
You paid it forward......
and you are here now, continuing to do so. ...

reply to post by adjensen

And like I've said, without accumulated knowledge, any advancement is incidental, and therefore irrelevant.

consider "accumulated knowledge" as something that is stored away... waiting for you when you get home...

Something like this?

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Names? No, apart from Valentinus.

I had lots to say from here but I feel this would turn this discussion from its actual topic...

Haven't you read Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman? I thought that you had.

nope... I don't read those types of books... but from what I see on the table of contents, I have read all of the books Dr.Ehrman discusses in said book... In fact I've read just about every piece of gnostic scripture that exists as far as I know... that's why I was wondering if you knew of books that I don't...

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Origen believed in the pre-existence of the soul, but by the Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II) the notion was discarded.

As I said, I have no real opinion on the matter, and as you well know, as a Catholic, I'm pretty Protestant in my views, lol. Just because the Catechism says something doesn't mean I'm on board with it.

Fair enough... that's very honest of you...

I read one of her books, on the afterlife, and it was horrid. She basically presented the afterlife as she would like it to be, everything was in accordance with her own life experience -- the "entrance" to heaven was in southern California, for Pete's sakes.

Well i'll have to agree with you here... still the one I read was interesting...

reply to post by adjensen

adjensen, I want you to know I have appreciated your input in this thread. You have given a solid and articulated opposing perspective we might not have gotten otherwise. As always, you make valid points, and add to the thread.

You do however, love the debate, don't you?

Happy new year. I hope you continue to stick around and add your slant to the discussions here.

I'm curious to know if those who don't believe in reincarnation or the soul, if they have actually had the intention and focus to quiet their minds and seek a better perspective of who they truly are. You will not find the higher answers in books or from a preacher. Those systems are designed to continue the illusion of separation rather than to encourage the seeker to gain an experience within.

It's your choice on how you want to explore your personal adventure of having a body. You will know more at the conclusion or you can choose to investigate on your own to better know who you as a Soul are. I like the Native American path of a Vision Quest. There is a purification process along with fasting and a quite time to seek answers and receive information that is appropriate to the participant.

It may take some of the drama out of the game however these challenges can be seen as a spiritual fire that will transform those who are ready to advance by surviving all this crap without succumbing to it. This is not an easy place and no one outside of yourself will be able to do it alone for you.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

Do you believe starving children choose their existence? Obviously not.... but either God is a cruel bastard (like the OT shows) or these people have been given what they've created... Even as it says in the bible... you get what you give and the world is messed up and has been since it started... Its the only logical way

you means starving children deserve what they get? That doesnt feel good.
So in a way making someone suffer in hell is cruel of God but suffering here birth after birth is ok as "you get what you give"!!!

Show me one person in history that hasn't suffered in this life?

We're born into a chaotic realm that is based on decay and death... IF the spirit is eternal, it is not based on the same principals of this world.

Hell from a Christian perspective is based on this world... Where your "body" is tossed into a firey pit of torment and despair, even the word "hell" or Gehenna is based on a real physical place

A loving Father would NEVER subject his children to torture... but if you make this "kingdom" hell so to speak... you will get what you have given, in this life or the next...

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and Blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by Akragon

 

Clearly the chapter is about Christ dying only once. In making that point though the author of the letter to the Hebrews likens Christ dying once to men dying once. Thus the notion of reincarnation is denied.

I just had the thought that it's pretty interesting as well that Paul, in writing to the Thessalonians, who thought that Christ had already come, says that when Christ comes, the dead in Christ will rise first. He makes no mention of anyone being reincarnated. Which makes sense because, if someone reincarnates, it would be possible for them to no longer be one that is dead in Christ.

No... the notion isn't denied... the fact is reincarnation is not discussed at all... period.

The body dies once... MAN dies once... This is true... Reincarnation doesn't involve the bodies of the dead... it is rebirth of the soul into a new body... not an existing dead body.

reply to post by Deetermined

So, in essence, the "manner of spirit" in which John was supposed to work was different from the manner of spirit in which Elijah was sent to work.

Kinda like the manor of spirit in which Jesus worked.... was completely different from the manor of spirit found in the so called God of the OT?

Perhaps john was the same spirit as Elijah, but he realised the first time around he was working for an imposter?

Ye think?

reply to post by Klassified



Please dont lump all belief systems of "aboriginals" together as if all are the same. Its incorrect. Im Blackfeet.. as in my parents were born on rez. My folks do NOT believe in reincarnation and that the life of the dead was as real as the life of the living. They live it much the way we do in this world. It gets really tedious on ATS when "indians" are all lumped together. Our society, culture, dress, diets, physiology, and belief system are widely varying from tribe to tribe and even sometimes within the tribe the systems vary. Its like saying " all Europeans believe blah blah blah".