Is This Better?

Originally posted by JimmyBlonde
reply to post by twitchy

 

I gave you a star thingy for making the effort. Please, however, use paragraphs next time, your post hurts my eyes!

[edit on 21-9-2007 by JimmyBlonde, yeah, my spelling is crap]

Aren't you a freemason as well axeman? I was going to ignore you as the hobnobbing freemasons on this board have tried over and over again to derail this thread, but let me ask you a question...
Why is that the Freemasons here are the ONLY ones defending this rip off?
Vested intrest?
As to how much it costs the average american, well that's a mystery because the Kosher folks don't release the numbers. It's a multi-billion dollar industry, entirely supported by people who are largely ignorant of the fact that they are being hustled. Let's say just for entertainment that it's 10 billion a year getting sucked out of unwary consumers, at a population of 300 million, that's what about 33 bucks a person? Canada offers folks a tax deduction of thousands of dollars per person so I'm sure the 10 billion is a very low estimate for the US kosher booty.
Would you let me stick my hands in your pocket if I were only taking a little bit of money, thirty bucks? What if my hand was in everybody's pocket only taking a little bit?
As to why people don't raise more hell about it, well most folks don't have a clue what the K and U means on their groceries, they take the Kosher logo out of mainstream advertising, Daisy Sour Cream Commercials for example, the product is shown without any Kosher logo on the packaging.
Ask your local Grocer manager what the symbols mean, chances are he won't have a clue unless he hobnobs down at the local lodge with the other wannabe wizards.
Best way to give back to the community is not to steal from them in the first place, mason.

Originally posted by twitchy
Aren't you a freemason as well axeman?

Not that it has the least bit of bearing on my opinions in this thread, but yes, I am.

I was going to ignore you as the hobnobbing freemasons on this board have tried over and over again to derail this thread, but let me ask you a question...
Why is that the Freemasons here are the ONLY ones defending this rip off?
Vested intrest?

Hardly. Maybe it's because most Masons are the types of people who look at things critically, question their surroundings and investigate and apply reason and intellect to a given problem.

As for ignoring me, how on Earth does asking you to clarify your thought process so that I can better understand your point of view "derail" this thread? Isn't that the whole point of this forum? Or is it just your soapbox?

As to how much it costs the average american, well that's a mystery because the Kosher folks don't release the numbers. It's a multi-billion dollar industry, entirely supported by people who are largely ignorant of the fact that they are being hustled. Let's say just for entertainment that it's 10 billion a year getting sucked out of unwary consumers, at a population of 300 million, that's what about 33 bucks a person? Canada offers folks a tax deduction of thousands of dollars per person so I'm sure the 10 billion is a very low estimate for the US kosher booty.

Pure, unadulterated speculation. You even ADMIT it's speculation. Where does the $10 bil figure come from? You said yourself there are no numbers. Did you just make it up? And what do Canadian tax breaks have to do with this?

Would you let me stick my hands in your pocket if I were only taking a little bit of money, thirty bucks? What if my hand was in everybody's pocket only taking a little bit?

You'd be the US government.

As to why people don't raise more hell about it, well most folks don't have a clue what the K and U means on their groceries, they take the Kosher logo out of mainstream advertising, Daisy Sour Cream Commercials for example, the product is shown without any Kosher logo on the packaging.

Most people don't care. And why would they? Even if the "kosher" certification does cost money, anyone with any sense could tell you that if you expand your target market, you can figure that the revenues created by the customer base that you didn't have before will more than cover the cost of the "blessing" as it were. You're more likely to incur a price increase from something like the cost of the oil products and energy required to produce the product in question than from any "kosher" charge. Give me a break. Show me some facts and I may reconsider but at this point I think you are just being paranoid.

Ask your local Grocer manager what the symbols mean, chances are he won't have a clue unless he hobnobs down at the local lodge with the other wannabe wizards.

I would think the dividing line there would be if you were Jewish (*gasp*) or not; your childish attempt to insult aside, I don't see what a fraternity has to do with it.

Best way to give back to the community is not to steal from them in the first place, mason.

The best way to weaken your position is to insult and attack when your theory is challenged, hippie thespian. It's called ad hominem... look it up.


[edit on 9/21/07 by The Axeman]

Oh yeah I forgot your masonic affiliation predisposes you to some higher sense of morality than the rest of us, which obviously leads you to defend the jewish taxation of those less free or accepted than your ma ha bologna. You may be ok with digging into other people's pockets in the name of your beliefs, but the rest of find paying extra for our products because of some obscure meat laws in Deuteronomy for Jewish people to be an affront. The Canadian Tax Credit is specifically for Kosher Costs bourne by the other 97% of the population, a credit which is valued in the thousands of dollars, that's what is has to do with it.
You failed to answer my question, why is it freemasonry is the only folks defending this scam? As to what freemasonry has to do with all this, well, I think you know what I'm talking about. Ignoring you and all the other masons who come to this thread to throw their subtle accusations around and post holocaust pictures allows me to bring this to light, real light, aka truth.

Anybody who isn't a freemason have an opinion on this?
Probably not.

If the Manufacturing Plants need an official Rabbi to verify that the process is being followed correctly, then can't they just create a position in their company and hire an offical Quality Assurance Rabbi?

I kinda see what you're trying to say, in a way but I'm not clear on exactly what it is that makes this a religious racketeering conspiracy. and Not all countries have a law that mandates a seperation of church and state.

For me the problem lies in the FEE which is a religious taxation. I am charged for a service that is meaningless to me and I have no recourse. That a religious group has such control that I can not choose to buy non kosher Cheetos, am forced to buy more expensive religious Cheetos's, where the profit goes to a religious, group bothers me. That the government supports a religious Tax on my food bothers me. It doesn't matter which religious group, it is the way the whole scheme is run.

A rabbi COULD easily check the food and find it kosher and not have to charge such a significant amount. The individuals who require a Kosher meal could be taxed individually through their temple, and the secular consumer could remain free from unrepresented taxation. That non food items have a for profit kosher mark is a clear indication that this is not about following a spiritual path, but rather is a profit motivated tax upon the masses.

On can find other food quality marks, such as Fancy, Grade A, etc, but with those other consumer marks, there is no huge fee, no extortion(boycott) if a maker chooses not to have the mark, no private religious profiteering.

If some find the need to have a spiritually approved food counsel, fine. That they force me to pay for it, very uncool.

Personally, I feel that if a particular group needs to have a special food, then the manufacturer should charge them, and not the other way around.

I dunno, I just don't see what all the fuss about. There's nothing in my fridge with a kosher sticker on it, and if you want kosher, you have to purposefully seek it out. It's not like all the items in the grocery store are kosher. If you don't want "Hebrew National" hot dogs, then just buy Ball Park wieners.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
There's nothing in my fridge with a kosher sticker on it, and if you want kosher, you have to purposefully seek it out.

Oh Bologna. It's everywhere.

I agree with Twitchy, it's everywhere. Look for the tiny circled "K" on food packages. It is a small symbol often overlooked. Sometimes it is also labeled "Pareve".

With other food standards such as Grade "A" there is a list of requirements for the ability to label food with that name. Why can't they simply list requirements for food to be deemed Kosher, and allow manufacturers to follow that standard without having to pay a significant fee. They could be spot checked for compliance as with all such labels, and that would be the end of it.

They wont do this because it is a huge money maker and YOU pay for it.

I think Billybob summed it up pretty good here...

Originally posted by billybob
it is simple. if jewish people want their food to be certified by a rabbi(or their draino), then jewish people should pay extra, and that cost should be built into the product.
it is a crime to steal 'kosher tax' from the non-jewish population....
religious tax is unconstitutional, biased, unfair, and plain wrong.

Ah but see billybob, it's private taxation, one of the oldest scams in human history. The original pyramid scam

[edit on 23-9-2007 by twitchy]

Here you go axeman...

Source
In the United Status the Kosher market is around US $200 billions (200.000 million dollars) at 2005 consumer prices, according to Kosher Today magazine. Many producers in the USA and Canada look for specialized markets. From chocolates, preserves, pasta, juices and condiments, more and more Kosher certified products are available to satisfy consumers in search of quality product and in food security.( Source: gourmetretailer.com/gourmetretailer/magazine/ article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1738481. )

In Canada , Kosher food represents a growing niche associated with all types of cuisines. A recent study by USDA (United Status Department of Agriculture) shows that sales of Kosher food increased from $480 to $557 million Canadian dollars from 2000 to 2001. ( Source: Consumer Trends in the Canadian Kosher Market, agric.gov.ab.ca/ )

200 billion devided by the current us population of 300 million is 666 dollars and 66 cents. 666 dollars per US citizen a year. 666...

Edit:
Math Error, it's 66666.666666666666666666666666667!

Edit: All these masons on this thread... Anybody still wondering why I put this in the Secret Societies Forum now?

[edit on 23-9-2007 by twitchy]

[edit on 23-9-2007 by twitchy]

I'll respond to your other post in turn; I've been away for the weekend.

I'll go ahead and hit this one though, since I'm here.

Originally posted by twitchy
Here you go axeman...

Source
In the United Status the Kosher market is around US $200 billions (200.000 million dollars) at 2005 consumer prices, according to Kosher Today magazine....

200 billion devided by the current us population of 300 million is 666 dollars and 66 cents. 666 dollars per US citizen a year. 666...

Edit:
Math Error, it's 66666.666666666666666666666666667!

Edit: All these masons on this thread... Anybody still wondering why I put this in the Secret Societies Forum now?

Yeah, kind of. I think it belongs more in the conspiracies in religion forums or something like that, but it doesn't matter what I think. This certainly has more of a place here that that idiot zorbog or whatever the hell his name is today.

OK, the source says the kosher MARKET is 200 bil a year, not the cost of the "blessings" to deem it kosher. It was a nice try, pretty subtle, but again I call BS. You seem to be confusing the overall sales of kosher foods in the US with this "tax" you keep going on about.

Edit: bbcode

[edit on 9/24/07 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by twitchy
Oh yeah I forgot your masonic affiliation predisposes you to some higher sense of morality than the rest of us, which obviously leads you to defend the jewish taxation of those less free or accepted than your ma ha bologna.

My Masonic affiliation has no bearing whatsoever on my opinions here, and no, Masonic affiliation does not "predispose [one] to a higher sense of morality, blah blah blah." It seems like only anti-Masons like yourself believe that. Masons are just regular people, get that through your thick skull. Your subtle (and not-so-subtle) insults and insinuations are extremely annoying at best.

You may be ok with digging into other people's pockets in the name of your beliefs, but the rest of find paying extra for our products because of some obscure meat laws in Deuteronomy for Jewish people to be an affront.

I don't dig into anyone's pockets, thank you. Again, your attempt to place blame on Masons is pointless and baseless.

The Canadian Tax Credit is specifically for Kosher Costs bourne by the other 97% of the population, a credit which is valued in the thousands of dollars, that's what is has to do with it.

And I suppose you have proof of this tax break, and the fact that it is "specifically [to offset] kosher costs"?

You failed to answer my question, why is it freemasonry is the only folks defending this scam?

No, I didn't. You failed to read my post, apparently.

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by twitchy
Why is that the Freemasons here are the ONLY ones defending this rip off?
Vested intrest?

Hardly. Maybe it's because most Masons are the types of people who look at things critically, question their surroundings and investigate and apply reason and intellect to a given problem.

As to what freemasonry has to do with all this, well, I think you know what I'm talking about.

No, I'm quite sure I don't. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question.

Ignoring you and all the other masons who come to this thread to throw their subtle accusations around and post holocaust pictures allows me to bring this to light, real light, aka truth.

I have done no such thing, and I'm hardly the one throwing around subtle accusations here. Take a look in the mirror before you go pointing your crooked little finger at me.

Anybody who isn't a freemason have an opinion on this?
Probably not.

Oh I see; you must be taking a page from MrNECROS' book... "anyone who disagrees with my posts MUST be a Mason!"

Had any problems with your plumbing lately?

You answered my question about how much it is costing people with a figure for something completely different than what we are talking about. Care to try again?

Don't drop a bunch of links; I don't have time for that. I want YOUR thoughts on the issue, SUPPLEMENTED with sources when applicable. If you can't do that, then this dies here and takes a decent chunk of your credibility with it to the grave.

Are you going to ignore me or dodge my questions? That's fine; I'll just chalk it up to your inability to debate/discuss the topic when someone challenges your position with reason.

Otherwise, let's cut the tap-dancing and get to it.

[edit on 9/24/07 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman
Don't drop a bunch of links; I don't have time for that. I want YOUR thoughts on the issue, SUPPLEMENTED with sources when applicable.

Try reading the thread Plenty of thoughts and sources. If you have ANY information to the Contrary, well out with it, otherwise it's just another mason talking.

reply to post by twitchy



I don't have time to wade through 11 pages of posts looking for the answer to a question that you could simply answer and be done with it. My spare time is precious as there is not much of it (a wife, 3 kids and a full-time job will do that).

If you want to discuss, then let's. If you want to play games, well then that is where we will leave it. This thread has been here for a long time and I have read it before, and looked at most of your links. At this point I am engaging you directly, today, about what you have just posted.

If you choose not to continue, that's okay, I understand. Hell, I even called it.


[edit on 9/24/07 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by exitestablishment

Originally posted by The Axeman
Hardly. Maybe it's because most Masons are the types of people who look at things critically, question their surroundings and investigate and apply reason and intellect to a given problem.

Unlike in this thread! Clearly it seems that twitchy has "looked at things critically", "questioned their surroundings" and "investigated and applied reason and intellect to this given problem". So what's the problem? There was a Jewish mason who did the same and agreed with twitchy point. It seems the masons cannot and will not conciede that their argument against twitchy is without merit and a collaborated effort to shut down this informative thread. Masonry in this thread has been exposed, so to speak.

[edit on 24-9-2007 by exitestablishment]



[edit on 24-9-2007 by exitestablishment]

reply to post by twitchy


I wonder whose side the gov.'t is on. If the government supports big business that we like to think they do. couldn't they make legislation that an outside source do inspections like they do for the USDA or organic foods. In other words, the government can certify it's own people. Pay them 50k a year with nice benefits to go around making sure cheetos doesn't get into anything it shouldn't.

Then no one wins, and no one loses.

Originally posted by exitestablishment
Unlike in this thread! Clearly it seems that twitchy has "looked at things critically", "questioned their surroundings" and "investigated and applied reason and intellect to this given problem". So what's the problem? There was a Jewish mason who did the same and agreed with twitchy point. It seems the masons cannot and will not conciede that their argument against twitchy is without merit and a collaborated effort to shut down this informative thread. Masonry in this thread has been exposed, so to speak.

You know nothing of Masonry, if that's what you think.

First of all, the fact that I am a Mason does not define who I am, or account for what I believe or don't. It just means that I have been initiated and am a member in good standing of a fraternity. Period. End of story.

Secondly, I'm not saying he's wrong or right, and I'm certainly not trying to "shut down the thread." Why would I even be posting here?

He cries about being labeled and anti-Semite yet turns around and puts a stereotypical label on me (you dirty Mason) because I ask him some simple questions? Then he tap-dances around the questions and accuses me of trying to derail the thread?

He's contradicted himself with his own sources just in the last few posts; that's what I'm trying to address. If you have no numbers to work with, you can't just make them up. He claims that there are 10 bil worth of these fees that are being collected by Rabbis for "blessing" these products, yet when asked to reveal his thought process and how he came to that number, he provides information that doesn't answer the question.

Total sales of kosher foods or the sum of the "kosher market" in the US does not answer my original question, nor address my point about it. Let me see if I can be a little clearer in what I am asking:

1. How do you figure the cost for the manufacturer associated with kosher certifications?

2. How do you know that the increase in revenues due to the increase of customers due the fact that the foods are kosher doesn't more than cover the cost of the certification?

3. How do you determine that this cost is absorbed by the (ostensibly) larger customer base who doesn't want/doesn't care if their foods are kosher or not?

It doesn't make business sense for a company to boost the price of a product for everyone in order to entice a few into buying their product over someone else's. If the projected figures show that having kosher certification will increase the customer base by 10%, thereby increasing revenues by 10%, and the cost of the certification is less than that figure (I would bet it would be MUCH less), then the certification pays for itself and the "gentile" consumer need not worry that the nasty Jews are picking his pockets.

Now, I have laid out my position and explained my thought process to reach my opinion. If you can show that I am wrong, then I will stand corrected.

You seem to think that this is some kind of Masonic vendetta; it's not. In my case it's just one dude trying to get another dude to explain how he got to his position, much like I have just done.

If you think that I am "derailing" or "trying to shut down" the thread, then I say you are full of icky stinky brown stuff.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Don't drop a bunch of links; I don't have time for that.....
I don't have time to wade through 11 pages of posts looking for the answer to a question that you could simply answer and be done with it.

Every Single One Of Your Questions Have Been Addressed Axeman in A Thread You've Already Said You Have No Intention Of Reading.
Amazingly you don't have time to read the thread or read the links I've provided, yet you find time to come back to this thread and go on and on. As I said, if you have some evidence to the contrary, then out with it. Otherwise good day to you sir.

Originally posted by twitchy
As I said, if you have some evidence to the contrary, then out with it. Otherwise good day to you sir.

Your debate skills are less than shabby, my friend.

The "Kosher tax" (or "Jewish tax") is a canard or urban legend spread by anti-Semitic, white supremacist and other extremist organizations such as the National Alliance and Ku Klux Klan.

Background:
It refers to the claim that food producers must pay an exorbitant amount to obtain the right to display a symbol on their products (often a K or U in a circle) that indicates it is kosher or pareve, and that this cost is passed on to consumers through higher prices which constitute a “kosher tax”. Additional false claims are made that this “tax” is “extorted” from food companies wishing to avoid a boycott, and used to support Zionist causes or the state of Israel. Racist groups encourage consumers to avoid this “Jewish tax” by boycotting kosher products, or by requesting a refund from the government on their income taxes.

The actual cost to the consumer is generally minuscule; in 1975 the cost per item for obtaining kosher certification was estimated by The New York Times as being 6.5 millionths (0.0000065) of a cent per item for a typical product. This is more than offset by the advantages of being certified. Certification leads to increased revenues of sales by opening up the additional markets such as Jews who keep kosher; Muslims who keep halal; and vegans, Seventh-day Adventists, and the lactose intolerant who wish to avoid dairy products (products that are certified as pareve may meet this criterion). According to Berel Wein, “The cost of kashrut certification is always viewed as an advertising expense and not as a manufacturing expense.” Dispellers of the “kosher tax” legend argue that if it were not profitable to obtain such certification, then food producers would not engage in the certification process, and that the increased sales resulting from kosher certification actually lower the overall cost per item.

Source (emphasis mine)

Exactly what I said, and I just read this article for the first time this morning. Thanks for the u2u (you know who you are).

And a good day to you, my dear hippy.