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Is This Better?

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posted on Sep, 29 2007 @ 02:07 PM
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I'm not the only one catching on apparently... CBC credible enough for you axe?



CBC News
On Monday, the commission heard from several Quebecers who are upset about kosher foods. Many mass-produced packaged foods available in supermarkets are kosher, which means a rabbi supervised their preparation to ensure the products meet Jewish dietary laws.

Laurentians resident Émile Dion said that makes him angry because he believes the cost of getting a rabbi's blessing raises food prices by as much as 10 per cent. "Why should I pay 10 per cent more for the Jews?" he asked during his comments, which went on for several minutes. "It forces us to eat kosher, and I don't want to," he said in French.


Canadian Kosher Propoganda?
Always more food companies in the news, daily. Today?
Crispy Green's Line of Crispy Fruit Products Receive Kosher Certification
Thou Shalt Not Failt To Make Buck on Natural/Artificial Flavorings...
NPRI Receives Kosher Certification for Family of O2P Powders
Babcock ice cream's pint-sized problem
Yes, Kosher Phones. !82 Million Dollar Lawsuit over Kosher Phones.
Kosher phone users sue cellular cos for NIS 182m
Yes Kosher Internet, comming soon to a ISP Bill Near you.
Glatt kosher internet
Any new Market is A Target For Kosher Artists... Organic Fowl.
New push to approve kosher organic fowl
Certified by one Kosher Organization, but not the others...
FRUIT AND VEGETABLES in Israel may be certified as kosher by one local municipality but not by another
Another food company...
Amish Naturals' premium pasta
Yeah...
How To Eat Like A Kosher Billionaire
So amny numbers being thrown around, yet all of them in the Billions...
According to About.com, kosher food is a $9 billion market that is growing at a rate of 15 percent each year. That’s almost four times as fast as other foods. The non-kosher food market is growing at 4 percent annually, according to the Web site.
Those who eat kosher won't go hungry in San Diego
A delicatessen that served non-kosher meat in Safed was set on fire early this morning.
Thou Shalt Make Money on Monoglycerides...
Cognis Expands Emulsifier Range with Kosher Monoglycerides
kosher vodka to France
New York City: 100 per cent kosher
Kosher is cheap huh?
The school spent $129,000 to buy equipment for the kitchen, which is expected to open in November as part of a renovated dining room in Chadbourne Hall. The university is hiring two mashgichim — Orthodox rabbis or those appointed by rabbis to monitor food preparation — to supervise the kitchen.
And if you're really into current events, this is quite interesting...
Iran and Pakistan are not the most obvious venues for a London Beth Din kosher-food inspection.
Greasing the Wheel?
It’s all a matter of “Greasing the Wheel.” Yet even though there are many Jews in the business world, non-Jews have little idea what to give them. In comes Yossi’s Bakery and Sweet House to lead the way and take that burden from the rest of the business world.

The halal market in Turkey is said to be worth 2.1 TRILLION, so lets not kid ourselves about the Kosher Market in the US not being a Big Deal.
Turkey misses out on $2.1 trillion halal market
I can go on if you like, the news is full of it this week. Why bother, you will defend it regardless, abiding some of that brotherly love from the free and accepted.




posted on Sep, 29 2007 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman

Yeah, because the CIA and the Jews and Wiki are in kahoots. Everyone knows that.




Never said that. Most people know wiki can be edited by anyone. That's all I implied and yes, the cia has been caught.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 12:57 PM
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Twitchy, twitchy, twitchy.

Yay for you! ANYONE can post a thousand links and act smugly about it. The funny thing is most of that is stuff you have already posted and most of which I have already shown to be from anti-Semitic and/or white supremacy websites.

The rest is simply reporting on sales figures and the actual existence of the kosher certifications.

If you remember, I didn't ask you to post a thousand links from every obscurely related topic you could find.

For example, what on Earth does whether or not a prison allow inmates to have kosher meals have to do with this? And the guy from the CBC article is about as credible as you, personally. Just because "he believes" that certification can jack up the price of foods by 10% doesn't make it fact. Not only that, but you - you slippery little devil, you - made it out like the news outlet itself supported the idea of a "kosher tax" when in fact they were just reporting on some sort of city commission meeting and quoted some old duffer like you being worried he was funding the Jews!


Not only that, but you continue to refer to the TOTAL RETAIL SALES OF KOSHER PRODUCTS as if it were the cost of the certifications. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were too stupid to know the difference.

Not only that, but NOBODY is denying the fact that kosher certification EXISTS and that it costs the manufacturers MONEY. What you have yet to show (because you can't - and therein lies the conspiracy, right?
) is how and to what degree this cost is passed on to the consumer.

The long and short of it: Yes, Twitchy; kosher certification exists and most companies have it. No, Twitchy; you aren't paying the bad old Jews for it -- the cost is absorbed by the companies that produce/sell these products -- and THEY, not the Jews, reap the profits of selling their products. The only moneys that go to "the Jews" are the moneys that are paid the rabbis for their services. Nothing nefarious in that.

If YOU can show otherwise, let's see it.

I'm finished debating you on this topic. I have asked you to show proof or reason that PROVES or at least REASONABLY DEMONSTRATES that the ACTUAL COST OF THE CERTIFICATION is jacking up grocery prices. I can Google the word "kosher" for myself if I want a link to every site on the friggin' internet. You should change your username to "Google Jr."

Note that this is not me saying you are right; it is me saying that your refusal to debate PROPERLY shows the weakness of your own reasoning and how heavily you rely on others to make your points for you -- and poorly at that.

So far, the facts and the reason applied to those facts still shows that the cost of the certifications is absorbed by the MANUFACTURER, and not the CONSUMER. The burden of proof is not on me to disprove your assumptions and theories; it's up to you to prove that your theory is right, and so far you have failed. From the very beginning you have been on shaky ground, and it's only getting worse...

I thought this was about grocery prices, not the Jews running the world? That's what you originally said right? What do Jewish bankers have to do with the price of groceries? You've got the basic foundations of the "Jewish Conspiracy to Take Over the World" theory laid out in your last little bundle of links, there.


I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first, but now I am convinced that it's not so much a grocery thing for you, but a Jewish control thing.

You might as well stop pretending you aren't a bigot and just admit it. You've already outed yourself.


[edit on 9/30/07 by The Axeman]



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
I'm finished debating you on this topic.

Don't let the door hit your butt on the way off this thread.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by The Axeman
I'm finished debating you on this topic.

Don't let the door hit your butt on the way off this thread.


Oooooooohhhh... nice.


Talk about a sore loser... It's not my fault you lack the capacity for open debate, dude.




posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 01:36 PM
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That's laughable at best axeman, all you've offered is a link to snopes and wiki, and some accusations of antisemitism, and talk talk talk. Your questions are addressed in the material I've already presented, and your links have been debunked. DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF AT ALL? Anything tangible to the contrary, or are we jsut supposed to take your masonic word for it? My debate skills? What have you presented here to debate other than your quite unlearned and biased opinion? I've done the research, I've debunked your sources, I've sourced jewish sites, kosher sites, news outlets, fringe sites. Again do you have anything worthy of debate, or are you on your way out the door yet?

I think people will make their own mind up, axeman, fortunately. All the Ma Ha Bologna and Ja Bul Chit in the world can't stop the truth from seeping through once its available. You and your masonic cohorts keep saying your done debating this, yet you linger parroting what the other masons have said before. Why do you and the other masons keep showing up here to defend the Kosher Scam, why don't you let the rest of the world know the truth about freemasonry and zionism so we can at least understand your urge to debate this despite your ignorance of the subject.

[edit on 30-9-2007 by twitchy]



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Your questions are addressed in the material I've already presented, and your links have been debunked. DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF AT ALL?


How exactly have you debunked my links? By claiming that the overall retail sales of kosher products is the same as the cost for the certifications? That's not laughable, that's RETARDED.

You have yet to offer up anything that actually ADRESSED my questions, let alone "debunked" anything!


Anything tangible to the contrary, or are we jsut supposed to take your masonic word for it?


To the contrary of what? That apples aren't the same as oranges? I don't need to show anything "tangible" to be able to say that what you claim and the numbers you have provided don't jive. Demonstrable reason and intellect work just fine for that.


My debate skills? What have you presented here to debate other than your quite unlearned and biased opinion?


I have a biased opinion? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


Well if that isn't the pot trying to call me a kettle!


I've sourced jewish sites, kosher sites, news outlets, fringe sites.


...that show nothing to support your claim that the certification is costing the END CONSUMER his hard-earned money, which I thought was the whole point.


Again do you have anything worthy of debate, or are you on your way out the door yet?


I have already told you several times what I intend to debate with you and you have done nothing but pussyfoot around it since. If you want to step up, then step up!

Let me make it easy for you.

1. I would like you to prove that the cost of kosher certification (substantially) increases retail price of products on a mass scale.

2. I would like you to prove that the cost of the certifications is not offset by the profits to the manufacturer due to its increased revenues on account of being certified.

3. I would like you to prove that the profits from manufacture and sales of kosher certified products goes to "the Jews" rather than the manufacturers and retailers of said products.

4. I would like you to leave my being a Mason out of it. It has no bearing on this discussion.

Until you can at least reasonably account for 1-3 (I think 4 would be stretching it for you), you lose. Game over.

Ready? Set? Go!

EDIT TO ADD (twitchy's post was edited to add this while I was composing my reply to his original post):


Originally posted by twitchy
...why don't you let the rest of the world know the truth about freemasonry and zionism...


Ah, now we get to the crux of the matter, and why I said that I thought #4 was going to be difficult for you. Here's the driving force behind all this, it has NOTHING to do with groceries.

The Masons and the Jews are out to get you, dude. Your Spider-Man night-light cannot save you! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!




[edit on 9/30/07 by The Axeman]



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
The burden of proof is not on me to disprove your assumptions and theories

LOL, the hell it isn't. You came to my thread. I've stated the position, if you disagree with what I've said, then YOU have the burden of Disproving what I've said. You've offered nothing to the contrary, but your opinions and a couple links to sites that offer no more in the way of proof than you did. If we compare research and sources, looks to me like you got wrung out.
Next little hobnobbing lodge meeting you attend, you might want to tell them to send somebody here that has at least SOME idea of what the hell they are talking about to shut the thread down because you honestly aren't very convincing.
Maybe if you keep posting tripe, all those links I provided will get buried in the thread and a new reader might see your posts and think you've done something worthy of reply. Anybody who has followed the thread will know better.
Again, if you can provide any evidence that this isn't profiting in the billions, and if you have some tangible proof that this cost ISN'T passed on to the consumer (if you had studied the links I've provided instead of blah blah blah'ing you'd already know that food companies have said it is indeed passed on to the consumer). Yes the burden of proof is on you, this is my thread, and I've already stated the position, in a formal debate you would have been chewed up and spit out by now.
You have to proove me wrong, I know that just blows your mind, but I spoke first, I stated the position, you have yet to demonstrate anything but your own opinions.
I thought you said you were done debating this anyway? That's great because you never started in the first place. I'm going to ignore you now, come up with something that DISPROVES what I've said and I'll respond with a debate, but you aren't dragging me into a rehash over and over and over again.
YOU PROVE ME WRONG, that's the way a debate works, don't like it, then start your own "I Like Paying Kosher Fees" and I'll come to your thread and burden myself with disproving what you said.

Until you, yes you, come up with something to the contrary axe, I'm going to simply ignore you and any other freemason that thinks they can derail this thread.


To the folks just tuning in here, please read the whole thread, these masons are howling and crying, and have been trying to get this thread shut down since it first hit the site. The only real defense of this kosher scam practice is to turn it into an arguement and an accusation. It's ridiculous, tiresome, and a detriment to the thread. Like or not masons, there are some who are interested in the material, and will look at it objectively no matter how many holocaust pictures you post or how many times you throw the words antisemite or biggot around.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
1. I would like you to prove that the cost of kosher certification (substantially) increases retail price of products on a mass scale.

Ok I'll post these links one more time for you axe, and I'll use a jewish source since you seem to think the rest of the world is out to get them...


www.jewishworldreview.com...
According to Menachem Lubinsky, co-producer of Kosherfest and president and CEO of Integrated Marketing & Communications in New York, the U.S. produces about $500 billion worth of packaged foods of which $170 billion is certified kosher. On the ingredient side, there's also about $500 billion of which $300 billion is certified kosher.

Here's another, read carefully now...


www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
Approximately 3/4 of all prepackaged foods have some kind of kosher certification, and most major brands have reliable Orthodox certification.

As much as ten percent according to some sources, apparently amounting to 500 dollars a person in Canada, in the US the figures arent' released but the Kosher Folks claim Billions in Profits. You think the Canadian government just pulls 500 bucks out of their kind hearted pockets to give to the people every year, or do you think maybe they know what they are talking about? See the Links I've already provided, you may have to read some.


Originally posted by The Axeman
2. I would like you to prove that the cost of the certifications is not offset by the profits to the manufacturer due to its increased revenues on account of being certified.

I'd equally like to see you proove that Kosher certification creates such a demand as would be sufficient to offset, indeed reiprocate and even exceed billions of dollars. Do you have any statistical anything like that Axe? No, just Wiki and snopes so far.


community-2.webtv.net...
"The New York Times, a Jewish owned daily, in a rare article on this subject back on May 18, 1975, reported that kosher symbols are deliberately printed "unobtrusively on labels" so that they will go unnoticed by Christians."

Wonder why that is axe? If they are marketing something to this Kosher Crazy 97% of the population, then why hide it's certification from them?That's the New York Times by the way.
What precisely are they (not)marketing then considering that there's no difference in quality..


Washington Post
Nov. 2, 1987
quote Rabbi Schulem Rubin, an Orthodox rabbi from the Bronx as declaring: "Kosher doesn't taste any better; kosher isn't healthier; kosher doesn't have less salmonella."

A matter of common sense and looking through the Kosher Propaganda to understand that 3% of the population isn't going to provide enough of a market to increase revenues by the expensive religous blessings of their products. Do you know how patently ridiculous that spin sounds to the layman? Extra Costs that represent no difference in quality, increase revenues eh? LOL Common sense, if I take money out of your pocket because I'm God's favorite, then you have LOST money. Unless you buy into something the rest of us don't.

Originally posted by The Axeman
3. I would like you to prove that the profits from manufacture and sales of kosher certified products goes to "the Jews" rather than the manufacturers and retailers of said products.



community-2.webtv.net...
"Rabbi Bernard Levy, head of the Orthodox, "Committee For The Furtherance of Torah Observance," demonstrates how he stamps the Kosher symbol which has made him untold millions of dollars.(Tax free)"



www.ukar.org...
Maryland rabbi Jonah Gewirtz projected extracting $700,000 in one year from steel manufacturers alone:



www.adlusa.com...
In 1959, the Wall Street Journal estimated this "tax" at about $20 million and it is thought to be in the hundreds of millions today. The Jewish Post of July 30, 1976 reported that Rabbi Harvey Sentor admitted that Kov K was a "profit-making concern."

You are familiar with the term profit? I've quoted a Rabbi as saying it is of profit making concern, had you READ the links I've provided you would have already known this. Billions of dollars don't just fall off the acacia tree. This point is ridiculous axe, you think the Kosher Folks do this stuff for free? As much as a third of profits from some food companies end up in the hands of Kosher inspections. Disprove that can you?

Originally posted by The Axeman
4. I would like you to leave my being a Mason out of it. It has no bearing on this discussion.

I'm sure you really would like folks to believe that, but admit it or not, that's why you and LTD and Theorn Dunn and all the other masons are here. Exposing freemasonry has everything to do with it. To be perfectly honest, this thread was a cleverly laid trap for masonry to come and expose themselves. I put in the secret Socities forum because I knew what was going to happen. You guys have done my work for me by replying over and over again, mason after mason. If you weren't a mason, you probably wouldn't even know about Kosher Labeling.
Hey which brings me to a question of my own, why are you still here, mason?

Edit:
One good thing that will come from this thread if nothing else, people can now see Freemasonry in operation. This is how they work, this is what they are about. Freemasonry is a Zionist institution, always has been and always will be. Who else would defend such a scam?
There are roughly three or four types you will find on this thread, regular non-jewish, non-masonic people (consumers) who have no idea what kosher is who once educated are angered, or not angered by it, masons who will defend it regardless of how clueless they are about it, people who know full well what it is and are tired of having their pockets picked, and soon I think we will see an influx of people who claim not to have any masonic affiliation comming to defend it as well.
Freemasonry has everything to do with it Axeman, you know that as well as I do, and now because you mason's just couldn't leave it alone, others will know as well. By all means, keep replying, it only serves my original intent.




[edit on 30-9-2007 by twitchy]

[edit on 30-9-2007 by twitchy]



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by FredT
Can you please explain the link to your post and Secret Societies?

I hope I've answered your question now Fred, if I had spilled the beans too early, they (freemasons) wouldn't have herded in here and we would have missed all this fun

Sometimes it would seem, not often, but sometimes, their solidarity is a weakness...



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 01:29 PM
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Source

Sessions will include the following:
•Welcome and overview by Rabbi Menachem Genack, Chief Executive Officer of OU Kosher and by Rabbi Elefant;
•How to deal with dairy products manufactured on pareve (neither meat nor dairy) lines; suggestions and solutions;
•Understanding the kosher intricacies of ingredients;
•Maintaining an effective kosher program; and
•Special presentations by marketing professionals to help maximize a company’s reach to the kosher consumer.


Nothing about bleeding billions from unsuspecting gentiles...


Source
Distributors and manufacturers have long attributed nearly 40% of a $4 billion kosher market to Passover sales.


So, whatever numbers you are working with based on sales, reduce them by at least 40%.


(ibid.)
In the past decade, the number of U.S. manufacturers who produce kosher has risen from 5,800 to 9,200. They produce 46,000 packaged goods and well over 100,000 ingredient items. Kosher food sales are approaching $4 billion, roughly the size of the natural foods market in the U.S. However, U.S. companies are producing more than $55 billion in kosher food products.


Again; missing the mark a bit, yeah? Funnily enough, that little tidbit immediately follows a quote I have seen you post in this very thread... so you knew all along that your numbers were bogus.


Granted the market has grown and this figure is from 10 years ago, but... keep reading.


Source

What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of, one that
processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a full
day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his organization's fee.

One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to
comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over
$5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2
billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer.


Kind of changes the overall picture a bit, no?


Source
In 2003 and again in 2005, Mintel, a major consumer marketing research firm, confirmed the multi-faceted identity of the kosher consumer. Americans in growing numbers were buying into kosher for a variety of religious, health, and quality issues. As many as 28 percent of Americans confirmed that they knowingly bought a kosher product. Major brands with kosher symbols did better than similar products without the symbol.


So we're actually looking at 28% of the population, and THAT, my friend, is enough to convince ANY businessman that he needs to get on board with this; the cost would be negligible next to the profit FOR THE COMPANY that would result from the extra sales.

Not only that, but the people who actually seek out kosher products are the ones paying more, not the unsuspecting Gentile...



Source
What they found, which was already confirmed by Mintel, was that the kosher consumer in fact had many faces, that they want a broader selection of food categories and not necessarily more brands of the same (like mayonnaise, horseradish etc.), and they do indeed shop for other kosher items throughout the store. Perhaps one of the most important finding for the kosher industry is that the average kosher consumer spends 47 percent more a year than the average nonkosher consumer, $2,748 vs. $1,873. The average shopper rings up an average $44.45 at the checkout counter while the kosher shopper who comes in only for the holiday (not year-round) has an average basket of $70.18 and the year-round traditional kosher customer a whopping $73.23, nearly $30 more than the non-kosher shopper. It is perhaps no wonder why the kosher shopper has become such a prized possession to supermarkets and
why more retailers are vying for this clientele
.

(emphasis mine)

So you see, this IS marketing, pure and simple. And why wouldn't producers of products want to open their products to an almost 28% increase in target market?


Source
The procedure for acquiring kosher certification is relatively simple. Upon receipt of your application, a representative of STAR-K will evaluate your company’s ingredients and products. Then a contract will be drafted, detailing all the requirements and obligations of both parties. All kosher requirements, as well as a list of all your ingredients and products, will be enumerated. Furthermore, the contract will outline the correct emblem authorized for each product indicating each product’s Kosher status. A signed contract guarantees that regular visits will be made periodically by a Rabbinic field representative of the STAR-K. The purpose of the Rabbi’s visit is to monitor compliance with the terms of the agreement by checking ingredients, products, labels, etc.

Kosher certification requires a detailed study of:
a) all ingredients used in the plant,
b) the method of production, and
c) all products produced there.


Do you expect all that labor to cost nothing? Of course not! You can't run a business (even a kosher certification business) without making some money. This is America, Jack, deal with it. It ain't coming out of your pocket, as the numbers clearly show.


Source
*The Kosher Food Market 2006
Compiled by LUBICOM Marketing Consulting, LLC
• 10,500,000 - Number of Kosher Consumers in the US
• 21% - Percentage of Americans who buy kosher products because they are kosher
Why Americans Buy Kosher:
2005 New Data**
• 55% - health and safety
• 38% - vegetarians
• 16% - eat halal

(emphasis mine)

Again, your numbers appear to be made up at best, maliciously falsified at worst. Either that or you can't tell the difference between "Kosher Consumers" (read: Jews who "keep kosher") and "Americans who buy kosher products because they are kosher".

There's a big difference between the two, and it IS in the Billions. But it's not "3% of the population dictating policy for the other 97%," or whatever.


Source
"We at STAR-K are indeed excited as we embark on this new alliance with NSF," said STAR-K president Avrom Pollak. "Like STAR-K, NSF is a not-for-profit organisation dedicated to helping consumers know that they are getting real value from certified products. The bundling of our certification efforts will add further efficiency and value to our combined efforts on behalf of consumers throughout the world."

STAR-K Kosher Certification, a not-for-profit agency, certifies food products, as well as industrial food chemicals, in over 1,000 locations worldwide. The agency also carries out research on food science and technology, in the ever-growing multi-billion dollar kosher food industry.

(emphasis mine)

Not for profit, eh? Well that puts a dent in your little theory, doesn't it? Note that no one ever denied that the sales market for kosher was in the billions, but your "profit making concern" label, at least on the part of the people doing the certifying, is bogus -- at the very least for this particular one.


Source
To be certified kosher, animals must be raised, killed and processed according to strict Jewish dietary law. Symbols of kosher certification include the letter K, often in combination with other symbols, or a U surrounded by a circle. The word "pareve" on a label means that the food contains neither meat nor dairy products.

Kosher poultry cannot show any signs of being pecked, sick or injured. The birds are killed with a slit to the neck, allowing the blood to drain out. They're never plunged into hot water (a theoretical source of bacterial contamination), but are washed in cold water before being soaked, salted and washed again. Experts in the koshering process say the extensive use of salt helps kill bacteria.

To be kosher, cows must be younger than 30 months. Dairy cows are never used. Kosher laws preclude using a stun gun or a bullet to the brain, which could scatter brain and nerve tissue (a source of mad cow disease). The animal must be hand-slaughtered by slitting its neck. Religious inspectors look for signs of broken bones, disease or scarred or punctured organs, which disqualify the animal. Downer cattle are never used, and about only 40% of healthy cattle qualify as kosher. Meat can be taken from only the forequarters; it is then soaked and salted to draw out the blood.


Sounds pretty labor intensive. You think all those man-hours just fall from the trees? Again let me stress that this is a voluntary process on the part of the producers/manufacturers of these products. They wouldn't do it if it wouldn't make money FOR THEM, not "the Jews."

[edit on 10/1/07 by The Axeman]



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Freemasonry has everything to do with it Axeman, you know that as well as I do, and now because you mason's just couldn't leave it alone, others will know as well. By all means, keep replying, it only serves my original intent.


My, my, my, aren't you clever!


You mistake my disagreeing with you for disliking you; likewise my attacking your argument for attacking you. Your Freemasonry and Zionism rant (yes, I read the entire thread) is completely retarded and your sources for it are pathetic, but that is beside the point. We're talking about kosher here, and you will not accuse me of trying to "derail" this thread.

Show that your argument is without merit and you're making a mountain of a mole hill? Perhaps. But it will be on topic and I will not debate Freemasonry with you in this thread. If you want to talk about Freemasonry and Zionism, do it here.

Have a nice day, buddy.


[edit on 10/1/07 by The Axeman]



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 03:23 PM
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Well now you're quite the debater aren't ya, considering you were done debating this with me a page or two ago. Well let's see what you pulled out of your hat here...

Originally posted by The Axeman
www.ou.org
Nothing about bleeding billions from unsuspecting gentiles

Ah the Kosher company themselves, god knows how objective they would be identifiying their involvement in a scam. Yawn.


Originally posted by The Axeman
www.jewishworldreview.com

Another surely objective source. Yawn.



(ibid.)
In the past decade, the number of U.S. manufacturers who produce kosher has risen from 5,800 to 9,200. They produce 46,000 packaged goods and well over 100,000 ingredient items. Kosher food sales are approaching $4 billion, roughly the size of the natural foods market in the U.S. However, U.S. companies are producing more than $55 billion in kosher food products.

...so you knew all along that your numbers were bogus.

Billions. Lots of numbers thrown around, all in the billions. Funny how everybody knows the amount yet no one discloses it. Until the amount raked in is disclosed, all the numbers are bogus. All of them say billions. Go figure. Yawn.


url=http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/antisemitism/ftp.py?antis emitism/kosher-tax/usenet.0696

Antisemitism twice in the same url, you know that's going to be an objective and unbiased source. Your source even says
"Many do not know exactly what the mark
means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it."
LOL yeah right. Yawn.


Source

Again quoting the kosher company themselves. You have anything that isn't propoganda or from slanted jewish sources? Yawn.


Source

Yet another quote from the Kosher Company. Yawn.


kosherfood.about.com...

About.com? YAWN.


Source
*The Kosher Food Market 2006
Compiled by LUBICOM Marketing Consulting, LLC
• 10,500,000 - Number of Kosher Consumers in the US
• 21% - Percentage of Americans who buy kosher products because they are kosher
Why Americans Buy Kosher:
2005 New Data**
• 55% - health and safety
• 38% - vegetarians
• 16% - eat halal

Now here's an interesting statistic from you for once. "Percentage of Americans who buy kosher products because they are kosher" is complete jewish doublespeak. Yes they're kosher products, but the average consumer has no clue what the Kosher label is, they sure as hell dont seek it out unless you buy into the Kosher companies marketing shceme, and as I have shown according to the new york times kosher certifications are deliberately printed unobtrusively on labels so to go unoticed by christians. Great statistic, but complete doublespeak. Funny just a few pages ago you were telling us you didn't have any kosher products in your home, bet you don't seek them out either. That's called marketing, also known as hyperbole in the learned circles.


Source
"We at STAR-K

Yawn.

Look axeman, its really simple. If Jews need special food, then Jews need to pay for it, not the unwitting consumers. Your sources are either Kosher Certification companies themselves, or so biased that they actually go as far as to claim that consumers look for Kosher certification, not even knowing what it is, mind you. Get real.
Try looking up the words independent research as well, you might get somewhere with me then.
3% making billions on 97%, there's nothing to debate here really axe, you like paying extra for your groceries and god only knows what else, and I don't. We've reached an impasse. I'm obivously not fooling you any here, so why linger?
As to you being a mason, my sympathies.



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 03:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by The Axeman
If you want to talk about Freemasonry and Zionism, do it here.

You wish, nice try though. Sorry, but folks need to see it for themselves.



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 04:06 PM
link   
I notice how you wait until I say I'm through to actually post anything, and then tut about how I'm still posting -- after you did what I originally asked of you.

You are a child, and you're just mad at me for crapping in your sandbox.

What's funny is that most of those sources I pulled directly from your posts (by the way, alot of your links -- even the ones you just recently posted -- are dead. Yawn.). Nice how they are fair game when used to try to make your point, but not when they show facts contrary to what you claim.

Ha. Doublespeak indeed. You've linked to Jewish sources this whole thread, suddenly they aren't allowed?




Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by The Axeman
If you want to talk about Freemasonry and Zionism, do it here.

You wish, nice try though. Sorry, but folks need to see it for themselves.


See what? That you don't know your ass from your elbow in terms of Masonry and what it is or is not? Yeah, everyone can see that...

[edit on 10/1/07 by The Axeman]



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by The Axeman
 





Ah, now we get to the crux of the matter, and why I said that I thought #4 was going to be difficult for you. Here's the driving force behind all this, it has NOTHING to do with groceries.


It is no secret that Twitchy and those like him, come to their conclusions because of their vile hate towards a society they remain ignorant about. The next obvious is the fact that his deep antisemitism is connected to Masonry, two peoples he despises yet have nothing to do with each other. Oddly enough Hitler thought in the same pattern.



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 04:49 PM
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Said the masons...


Axeman, I'm not saying jewish sources aren't allowed, I said they are biased, a Bias that is useless in a debate about the Kosher Certification Scam. You don't have a single solitary non-biased source to reference.
Throw hitler and the nazis in the thread while you're at it, maybe then people won't see the real story.
As to what I know or don't know about freemasonry, I know enough to have dragged all you in here and expose a little fraction of your grandiose hobnobbery, that's sufficient for me.



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
As to what I know or don't know about freemasonry, I know enough to have dragged all you in here and expose a little fraction of your grandiose hobnobbery, that's sufficient for me.


Oh, congratulations, Mr. Master Manipulator!!
Can you hear me laughing?

You have succeeded in placing a controversial topic in a section about Secret Societies, where a bunch of Masons post and then gloat about how you tricked them into "exposing" Masonry in your thread because they actually dared to disagree with your opinions and half-baked conjectures, and agree with one another.



*applause*

The more you post, the less I like you.


Originally posted by twitchy
Look axeman, its really simple. If Jews need special food, then Jews need to pay for it, not the unwitting consumers. Your sources are either Kosher Certification companies themselves, or so biased that they actually go as far as to claim that consumers look for Kosher certification, not even knowing what it is, mind you. Get real.


You want to talk to ME about biased sources, when over half of what you link to or quote is from anti-Semitic or white supremacy sites? Can you even be serious?

Not only that but the figures were based on people who actually know what kosher means and seek it out. Stop trying to be so slippery.


3% making billions on 97%, there's nothing to debate here really axe, you like paying extra for your groceries and god only knows what else, and I don't.


Show me where and how this "3%" is making billions? In all this fracas you still have yet to show that one "fact".

Even if we do the math with high figures:

According to the available info, there are approximately 10,650 kosher-producing companies and plants in the US. Now even if we figure that the cost of certification for EACH of these companies and plants runs something like $100,000 per year (a moderately high estimate IMO), that still only adds up to $1,065,000,000, falling WAY short of your claim that the kosher certifications generate "billions" for the Jews. Maybe one billion, if that, and there's no way that is even 50% profit.

Given my estimate, if you figure that there are $165,000,000,000 in sales of kosher products in a year, that means that 0.00645% of the retail sales of kosher products go to the certifiers, who in turn have to pay their employees, taxes, overhead costs, travel, marketing, etc.

Is there a profit? Certainly. Why be in business otherwise? It's no secret the Jews know how to make a buck (sorry guys, it's true enough). Are they doing it at the unsuspecting gentile's expense? I highly doubt it. They don't need to, and the certifications I have reasonably shown to pay for themselves. A marketing expense and one of the cheaper ones at that.

It doesn't seem so out of the ordinary if you just look at the numbers without bias and use a little intellect.


We've reached an impasse. I'm obivously not fooling you any here, so why linger?


HA! I'm not worried about you fooling me personally. How did you say? Ah, yes - "you wish". I just think your argument is flawed and I intend to show that, or have you convince me, whichever happens first. If you can show the FACTS (opinions - even ones other than yours and mine - are useless here) and present them in such a way as to show my REASONING (not my fraternal affiliation) is wrong, then I will stand corrected.

So far, you haven't done that, obviously, and I have read the entire thread and looked at your links, too.

Fair enough?


As to you being a mason, my sympathies.


Oh, grow up. Seriously.



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 12:12 AM
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Are churches supposed to make a huge profit axeman?
How may other religous organizations have Uncle Sam regulating them? Can you prove, beyond any tax record shadow of a doubt, it's not in the billions? No.
Why do you suppose there's so many numbers being thrown around from so many sources when they aren't allowed to disclose what they pay to the Kosher folks?
Why do you suppose they aren't allowed to disclose that figure as part of the deal? To keep people from understanding the sheer size of this scam, that's why.
They boast billions Axeman, that's not me talking, that's the Kosher folks saying billions, why you would doubt them is beyond me. Why you would defend them, well, that's why we're here.
I love the way you keep relegating my sources to nazi and white supremacy sites, you've obviously not looked at them as I have made an effort to provide information from a variety. New York Times, for example, is a White Supremacy organization is it? Shall I list them for you again so you can entertain me selectively picking through them some more?
The thread will stand for itself, I've done enough research and posted enough links for it to do that effectively, so post on. You better hurry and demonize me though, this thread is getting into the tens of thousands of views now.
God help freemasonry if people ever figure it out. You guys haven't had a good reality check since the 1300's.



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 08:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by twitchy
Are churches supposed to make a huge profit axeman?


I doubt any monies a church recieves are deemed "profits" as churches are not-for-profit. But if the church/synagogue creates revenues and then charitably distributes them, I don't have a problem with that. It costs money to run a church just like anything else.


How may other religous organizations have Uncle Sam regulating them? Can you prove, beyond any tax record shadow of a doubt, it's not in the billions? No.


Likewise, you cannot "prove, beyond a shadow of a tax record doubt" that the profits or revenues created FOR THE JEWS by these certifications ARE in the billions. Occam's Razor tells me I am probably right though. Come on, Twitchy, you are a smart guy.

I'm working on it, but as I said before, my time is limited.


Why do you suppose there's so many numbers being thrown around from so many sources when they aren't allowed to disclose what they pay to the Kosher folks?


There aren't "so many numbers thrown around by so many sources." The reason they aren't "allowed" (are you sure about that?) to disclose the cost of certifications (if that is even true) is probably the same reason my company discourages people talking about what they get paid. If you're charging one thing for one service, but charging someone else a different charge for the same service, for whatever reason, you wouldn't want those people talking about it amongst each other, now would you?


Why do you suppose they aren't allowed to disclose that figure as part of the deal? To keep people from understanding the sheer size of this scam, that's why.


Could be, but I suspect this is more paranoid conjecture on your part. See above.


They boast billions Axeman, that's not me talking, that's the Kosher folks saying billions, why you would doubt them is beyond me. Why you would defend them, well, that's why we're here.


They "boast" about SALES, not COST OF CERTIFICATIONS or PROFITS DERIVED FROM CERTIFICATIONS! THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE! YOU CANNOT COMPARE APPLES TO ORANGES HERE!


I love the way you keep relegating my sources to nazi and white supremacy sites, you've obviously not looked at them as I have made an effort to provide information from a variety.


Yeah, a variety that almost all in some way or another are influenced by the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" hoax. That right there blows all credibility to pieces.

I've looked at your links, and remain convinced that your logic is flawed and you have been led astray due to prejudice.


New York Times, for example, is a White Supremacy organization is it?


Of course not, but a white supremacist picking and choosing quotes from the New York Times could be. Show me the Times article, without the anti-Semitic wrapping, and we'll talk about it.

Also, sources from 1975 aren't much use for figures and such, I've found.


Shall I list them for you again so you can entertain me selectively picking through them some more?


No, that won't be necessary. People can see it for themselves.


The thread will stand for itself, I've done enough research and posted enough links for it to do that effectively, so post on.


No one is questioning the research, it's the REASON you have applied to the data that is in question here.


You better hurry and demonize me though, this thread is getting into the tens of thousands of views now.


I really wish you would stop trying to bait me into saying something you can construe as an attack. It's getting old.


I'm not trying to demonize you, I'm trying to show the flaws in your reasoning. Big difference. I actually kind of like you, although you've been wearing on my nerves lately.

I'd be willing to bet that if we met in a bar or something somewhere (and I wasn't wearing my ring
) we would get on just fine, hell, maybe even be friends.

This is not about you personally. Whether it was in the beginning for others is irrelevant. I am not trying to "demonize" you; in fact you are the one who seems to think my fraternal affiliation makes me the enemy and you have done all you can to try to denigrate and insult me just because I am a Mason.


God help freemasonry if people ever figure it out. You guys haven't had a good reality check since the 1300's.


So we should be rounded up and tortured and burned at the stake?!

Nice.


As I said, grow up. More info is forthcoming, as I have time.

[edit on 10/2/07 by The Axeman]



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