Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered

Originally posted by LightCraft

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
[

"ABORIGINAL police liaison officers who have been stripped of their guns fear
they could become targets for tribal payback attacks.

The liaison officers told the WA Industrial Relations Commission yesterday that
the ban prevented them from intervening in violent community disputes. This made
them highly visible, but defenceless, targets for payback attacks.

One officer said the ban was degrading. It made it seem that a white officer's
life was more important than that of an Aboriginal officer."

groups.yahoo.com...


Again, I have refuted everything you have said with facts. You're the troll. Grow up you little self absorbed sissy boy.

Hang on....

The "Facts" you gave before said that we were disarmed to kill the aboriginals and now the ban has provided aboriginals with an opportunity to attack social workers and officers

That is a blatant contradiction. Were we disarmed to kill aboriginals or has the gun ban given aboriginals the opportunity to attack officers who are now unarmed? choose one or the other and stick to it.

Im 1/16th Aboriginal and have full blooded aboriginal cousins so Im aware of the issues within the community, trust me guns have nothing to do with aboriginals or any issues they face.

Resorting to petty name calling just makes your argument look even weaker than it is, and using terms like "sissy boy" because someone dislikes guns just says something about the mentality of gun owners who use the term. It implies your not a "real man" unless you own and are prepared to use a gun. I would argue the opposite.

Next time you use personal insults Im going to report it. If you wish to discuss Im more than happy to but thats do it like adults

The fact is we live in a democracy and any change to our constitution should be done by a majority vote - more than 70% of America doesn't want tougher gun laws.

The argument to should end there.

There is no legitimate argument for any one person or group to restrict an entire nations ability to choose how they wish to defend themselves within reason, that reason being does the defense suit the situation IE using clay mores is not only overkill but would put in jeopardy non involved parties as well.

I practice what I preach I have both a rifle and a pistol and would never consider personal defense at home with the rifle because of my proximity to neighbors.

If I lived in a large house, or large property with barriers I would use the rifle, that is my choice by law.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


1.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The writing is somewhat ambiguous but I take it to mean an armed militia exclusively, not an armed citizenry.

Why would they specifically name the "militia" and "people" in the same sentence rather than use the word militia twice? Who the hell do you think the "people" are if they aren't the "people" of the nation??

2)

2) We need them to defend ourselves against the government Once again the US has the best military in the world, what exactly is an AK or even grenade launcher let alone handgun going to do against an army of tanks, helicopters and drones except make you and your family a target?

You seem to forget that although these men and women are military they have CIVILIAN families. What makes you think they're going to all follow orders to attack their fellow Americans?

3.

3)Its not just the US that has this problem Sorry but yes it is!! Every country has murder, people with mental issues, criminals with guns and gun deaths yet no other country in the world has people going into schools, malls, cinemas etc every few months blasting away at innocent people.

Ok, let's go for land mass/population density. Add up all the violent crime in the equivalent population densities across enough countries to equal the land mass/ population ratio of the US! Then we'll talk.

4.

Its part of our culture/ its a tradition

We aim to keep it that way, too! You seem to forget that it's a handfull of nutjobs and not the rest of the ( link ) 52,000,000 households that own guns who are committing these mass killings.

(quote tags removed from here on because it messed with the formatting)
5.

If guns are banned then only criminals will have guns

Absolutely true. They already don't care about the law. What should more law do to change their way of life?

6.

Then why not ban knives, cars, alcohol etc etc they kill people too!!!

This is a canned heated response when people try to blame and punish an entire country's population for the actions of a few deranged individuals!

7.

Guns dont kill people, people kill people

Absolutely true, too. My gun has been in my possession for over 40 years and has never even fired a single round off by itself. BTW, ~I~ have never killed anyone with my gun.

8.

I need it to keep my family safe

I can't speak for everyone here, only for myself. I don't need a gun to keep me safe. I do, however, use my gun to keep my livestock safe, unless you think I should just go chase coyotes and bear on foot with a knife or a slingshot?????

9.

Guns aren’t the issue, we need to help mental people

Guns aren't the issue. Family and personal values are the issue. I had a stepson who was "not right" and all dangerous items, not only the guns, were kept under lock and key for everyone's safety! He never hurt anyone either!


I'll finish the rest tomorrow morning.

You were right. You aren't American and I suspect you don't hate guns as much as you fear them.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


I see what you are trying to do with this thread, but it won't work.

It's not only the gun thing that's the problem. It's the whole culture and belief system of Americans aswell as other countries with high crime and murder rates.

The crime rate and the type of crimes comitted in a country usually reflects the country's culture, value systems, laws, etc.

Look at Denmark for example. You never hear of crimes of the magnitude that happens in the u.s with only a couple a months in between. And we have no death penalty, guns are illigal, and our system takes care of any dane who needs it, no matter if they are poor or rich, it doesn't matter here.

Criminals don't feel the need to kill of witnesses, because they don't face lifetime in jail. And i believe we only have about one or two gun deaths pr year.

It's all about how the society works as i see it. What belief system was you brought up in?

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

Thank you. It is humbling and a source of great pride.

The Constitution of the US is not perfect, but I am not aware of one better and damn few its equal. It promotes none of the evils you indicated. Those practices are barbaric. As a student of History, I hardly consider my support to be "blind". Point of interest: The author of the US Constitution is also the only sitting president to command troops in the field while under fire in a time of war. James Madison is a fascinating intellect.

I am saying that people are clever and determined. Kids are people. There are many ways to skin a cat, or disable a satellite. There are many ways to bypass locks, laws or other physical obstacles. We must stop assuming that these things deliver us of our responsbility and accountability. Stop chasing quick fixes and start slugging it out and fix this. The Internet is a conduit to a Black Market available to anyone with the money, including school kids, to spend. The only morality is the bottom line and the merchandise is there if you have the money. A total gun ban would be an unbridled disaster with that in place. The mundane JIT system we rely on for society's ongoing needs is no more efficient than the Black Market. Finding ways to promote personal responsibility is just as important as controlling gun availability. If I get rankled at this it is because people want to find a nice, neat fix and don't want to get their hands dirty dealing with the hard part. Like building a house with no windows or doors.
It would be nice if the country could standardize the laws we have. Legislative enactment, case law and reciprocity agreements could do it if we could keep the politicians and special interests, from BOTH sides, from buggering up the works. If a person in AZ would have the same requirements as a buyer in WI or SC, we could more easily track weapons. Not MORE control but BETTER control.

The one variable we tend to ignore is the human variable. While human behavior is complex, we can percieve trends and make educated guesses about future behavior. There are individual behaviors and group dynamics at work among our youth that we do not comprehend IF we are astute enough to even see it to begin with. So we medicate, isolate and hope for the best. If our fearless leaders would put the support systems in place to help families deal with these problems, perhaps these children would reach for help instead of a gun. When their only support system is their own mind, it is almost a certainity that they will eventually snap. Also, drugs eventually lose their efficacy over time which leads to relapse.

To say your basic solution lacks merit is inaccurate, conversely, to say it is the panacea we seek is equally so.

To say this issue is an onerous dillemna is understatement.

Warm Regards

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Its a security blanket and a pretty useless one, you think a rapist is going to come up and announce from 20 feet away that he intends to rape you?
Rape is a disgusting crime that in most people generates a primal emotional response and how could anyone be against anything that could prevent rape right?
The truth is most rape victims know the Attacker and have (or should have) no reason to fear them.
If a stranger decides to commit this crime its highly unlikely you will be given a chance to access your gun unless you carry it in your hand fully locked and loaded.

I wonder how many of the guns that are now being used by criminals were purchased by women like yourself who never had reason to use them and are now potentially being used by rapists themselves

Guns are a useless security blanket which is why our militaries and police have them and why politicians are protected by them. You can't ever use guns because the bad guy might prevail?

Neo-serfdom is full of bizzare inverted logic

Having no right to own a weapon and protect yourself is actually "freedom from guns"
The stripping down of free speech rights is fast becoming "Freedom from being verbally bullied"
Government dominated internet is "Freedom from false information"

reply to post by grownshow

Guns are a useless security blanket which is why our militaries and police have them and why politicians are protected by them.
This line of yours about rape makes me furious. Not confronting evil is pure cowardice and no matter of mental gymnastics could ever change it.
This thinking has led to the rise of every two bit dictator in modern history. Its useless to fight against rape because the rapist might win? You can't ever use guns because the bad guy might prevail? Forget fighting evil. Evil will aways win, just give it what ever it wants. Neo-serfdom is full of bizzare inverted logic Having no right to own a weapon and protect yourself is actually "freedom from guns" The stripping down of free speech rights is fast becoming "Freedom from being verbally bullied" Government dominated internet is "Freedom from false information"
You're line about rape is insulting to women and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that women are so inferior they can't grasp the use of weaponry. Forget that you already have insulted 99% of the population by arguing the common folk are just too stupid to have a gun which would be useless anyway, BUT our ELITES in government are so superior that only they can use arms and be protected by them.

Guns in the military are a completely different topic to civilians hiding them under their beds or carrying them in their belts.

Who said anything about not confronting evil or not fighting back dont twist my words, I meant exactly what I said, in a very very tiny tiny percentage of rape cases would a gun have done any good. If fear of rape is a concern learning a martial art or even just basic holds, grabs and pressure points is about 1000 times more likely to get you out of a bad situation, once again rapists will very rarely give you a chance to reach for a gun as the first you know of whats happening they usually have hold of you. I have worked quite a bit with 2 organisations that help victims of domestic violence (Womens health west in Australia and Womens Aid Organisation here in Malaysia) most of these women have suffered years of emotional, physical and sexual abuse. To even imply that I would be flippant about the subject is ridiculous and its obviously something your doing out of frustration due to not having a proper argument for your insistance that guns make you safe.

Not even going to bother talking about free speech or any of the other stuff as its not the issue and nothing Ive said would make anyone think I believe those things.
The freedom to buy guns readily is also the freedom to have criminals and SCHOOLCHILDREN access them at will, your free to that freedom if its what you want. Im not telling anyone what to do merely voicing my opinion on the topic.

I never said women or anyone else were too stupid to use a gun, I actually think quite the opposite. Id say roughly 50% of the people Ive seen on this site arguing for gun advocacy are idiots and they seem to know how to use guns just fine.

I will say that I think putting more guns into circulation to stop gun deaths is idiotic and contradictory but then you would say the same about me wanting to ban them.

If you post again please dont twist my words

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Meh!!!!

Basically another anti 2nd Amendment Thread by someone that is not American, has never been here and knows nothing about America other than what is scene on TV and Movies.

By that logic, all Brits has bad teeth, hairy chests, drink tea at noon and get so drunk that they pass out every single day.

Sure sure.

Nobody said freedom and liberty meant instantaneous happiness and no problems. Part of freedom and liberty is tolerance of others and their actions. Part of freedom and liberty is sacrificing certain securities that would otherwise be provided by a government that limits you in other ways. Part of Freedom and Liberty is respecting your fellow man's rights as he should respect your own.

You don't live here, you don't get it. You don't know what freedom or liberty is because you don't have it nor have you ever experienced it. You choose to live here or you don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

reply to post by spock51

No rational person would argue this point. We must act in some way to prevent this from becoming a cultural signature. The sheer number of guns can be a problem when people are not responsible with them. Knowing where they are IS necessary, but banning them would drive them into the black market. Big problem then. I am sure that the architects of the Fast and Furious gun scandal learned that the hard way.

I agree that no rational person would argue this point yet many on this site did, everywhere has guns on the black market. Its a problem yes but not a big problem in most places

While I do not personally subscribe to this feeling, I can understand why some feel this way. Feeling secure, projecting confidence and practicing situational awareness are the best defense. If having a gun helps one to achieve this, I personally have no issue with this as long as the bearer is stable. We all have our "binky" after all.

Well put

Concur. Silly argument really. That logic would have had us banning rocks and sticks and and and ..... I think you get the point.

LOL yet people still use it as an argument, 1 guy even said we should ban doctors!!!

Here is another point I contend with. There is NOTHING cold and impersonal about killing unless one is a sociopath in which case NOTHING you do will deter him. Been on both sides of this coin and it is incredibly personal either way. Also, I do not think offerring US .gov statistics will convince anyone. The US government has been known to fib. Most people, including some relatives living in that area, say DC is a war zone out on the streets. I will take my sister's word over the .gov's word.

All I have to go on is the stats, I still think psychologically its going to be easier to pull a trigger than stab someone.

In retrospect, I should probably lump 7, 8 and 9 together as they do have validity when considering the "human" factor and our need for security, even if the security as percieved is an illusion. Essentially, they are truisms which apply whether guns are around or not. It is inconcievable that we consider gun bans to be a panacea for the human condition any more than banning other "weapons" which are mere tools with other uses.

Not sure how to respond to that, good points once again

Don't know a bloody thing about UK stats. However, most .gov stats are suspect every where in the world. Call me paranoid, but I have been lied to by government entirely too many times to trust them unconditionally.

True true, my quoting of stats has in most cases been in response to other peoples stats, stats can be made to say anything you want if you play around with enough variables

Can't speak to this. Never been there. With relatives living around Atlanta, I do believe that area to be highly dangerous according to them. The fact that Kennesaw is in close proximity with such a low crime rate is quite remarkable but hardly a poster child for gun ownership.

I would look to other towns of a comparable size, regardless of its proximity to anywhere small towns always enjoy lower crime rates than cities and there are many factors that make this true.
Once again it isnt even mandatory there as many people like to claim.

Don't own one presently. Haven't for 31yrs since I left law enforcement. But, I have NO intention of permitting anyone to take away my right to choose. As stated previously, subjectivity must be guarded against, or at least recognized in a debate. You are highly intelligent and motivated, but you must realize that the American way and your way are vastly different. And the reasons for said difference IS an essential element in deciding such a volatile and divisive issue. Warm Regards Oh, yea, almost forgot (giving the Vulcan hand sign), live long and prosper.

A well thought out and politely delivered rebuttal, Star for you
I find it kind of telling that the most of th valid and civil arguments come from non gun owners.
From your responses and the way you come across I would not be bothered by you owning a gun.

Thanks for your input

Originally posted by MegaMind
The bill of rights are limits on government.

We ARE NOT granted these rights THEY ARE our rights as sovereign people. By our very existence these rights belong to us. Free people came together to form government. FREE PEOPLE!

"... shall not be infringed"

I own a gun because it is my right as a person, a human being, to own a gun for self preservation and defense.

YOU might be a SUBJECT to the SOVEREIGN that sits on a throne but WE are not.

So if you let your government take away your right then that's your problem ...

but "we the people" here in America aren't gonna let that happen any time soon ...

so get over it!

edit on 18-12-2012 by MegaMind because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-12-2012 by MegaMind because: (no reason given)

Whether you guys have guns or not has no effect on me and Im Australian not English.

So you guys have guns and we dont, how has that worked out for you so far?
Your country must be a land of freedom and rainbows with the government looking after all of your best interests and never infringing upon any of your rights.I mean they wouldnt dare... You guys have guns

Originally posted by Mikeyy
You know it's really getting aggrivating that yet again, another person from ANOTHER country is telling Americans how to live their lives.

Europe obviously doesnt value personal freedoms AT ALL. It's pretty damn sad. and The brits worst of all need to shut it, They are used to be slaves of the Monarch, and their empire has commited some of the worst attrocities man kind has ever seen. They are used to being controlled, be it the crown or the prime minister who bends to the crown, its all the same. You my freind need to find your freedom.

YOU have infringed on our individual rights in the 18th century and OUR ancestors responded by slaughtering your ancestors to earn us these rights.

As weak as you are, you are in no position to take my rights away again.

Be gone with you Red Coat.

Im Australian and no on one is telling you what to do so jump down from your high horse,
I bet if I was to go through all the posts of people who are using the "stay out of our business" type argument I would find many posts relating to Israel or Syria etc etc.

My country got rid of the Brits via a vote and I would say that since your country is effectively run by banks, most of which are run out of London you have havent in fact got your freedom you have the illusion of freedom.
Despite your 300 million guns these freedoms are being taken away on a daily basis (at least thats the impression I get from the Yanks on this site)

Well thought out and presented argument (sarcasm)

Originally posted by MegaMind
Governments in the past century have killed hundreds of millions of people. They are the most dangerous entities in existence. We don't live in a perfect world - if we did there would be no need of government or guns. Our guns are the last check on unrestrained governmental power, tyranny. In all despotic regimes of the past gun confiscation was the first step in total domination.

Maybe confiscation isnt a lead up to tyranny, I dont think Australia, Japan, Singapore, England could be called tyrannies. Maybe its a of too many of its citizens using them on each other. Just a thought.

You say that Americans with their shotguns, rifles and handguns are no match for the military - I agree. But how much worse off would we be without them should our government turn completely to despotism. At least there would be some resistance, something to give the would-be dictator pause.

You have the system in place to stop any despotic gov from taking over yet you dont do anything, you all sit there with your guns itching for the chance to use them as opposed to protesting or doing something similar.

Just think how vulnerable an unarmed nation would be. What motives would a government have in disarming its people? Would a government that distrusted its own people and so worked to disarm them be trustworthy itself?

I don't think so ...

Sometimes and just sometimes governments do things that are in the best interests of its people.
If guns were to be banned I feel it would be one of those occasions

Wow this thread is still going . All the points made by the OP have been pretty much destroyed so why are people still debating. The arguments the OP made were weak and full of holes. The OP wouldn’t directly address many peoples responses instead the OP would deflect from the topic. I didn’t expect much from someone who lives in a sheltered society but I thought he/she would have better debating skills than what I have seen. Maybe the OP will take an opportunity at some point in his/her life to see America firsthand at that point he/she will realize just how foolish the OP is with what he/she wrote.

Gun control, gun control, gun control... I'll be really impressed when people start calling for a little Self-Control. Wasn't it Wisconsin, not too terribly long ago, was trying to make it illegal for parent to yell at their children? When was the last paddle put away in school? How do you 'empower' children, at the expense of parental authority? I was watching some kids playing a video game the other day excited and bragging about head shots and getting a new weapon... and it hit me like a ton of bricks. We've done this to ourselves as a society, what did you think morals and spankings and discipline was all about? Did you think your grandparents were just backwards hardasses, or maybe there was some merit to their antiquated sensibilities, respect others or get your hide tanned behind the woodshed.

Do you really need to take my gun away.. what about sharp objects, what about blunt objects with handles on them.. chainsaws, axes, pool cues, rocks... at what point do we quit blaming and start looking at the real issues here... chief amungst them is our utterly sickening loss of community and morality. You put a ten year old boy in front of a first person shooter game for half his life, ok no problem, you put a ten year old kid who has no sense of morality or respect for others who is doped up on anti-psychotic medicene to compensate for your lack of parenting skills in front of the same game... hell yeah it's a problem.

I have a legally registered gun with which I've killed two coyotes, three groundhogs, two rabbits and a couple squirrels with it. I've never had the urge or compulsion to shoot another human being with it whatsoever. I have a very basic right to own that gun, and to defend my life with it, should I just give that right up because some lunatic didn't get a poper dose of humanity from their parents?

edit:
In India there's a rape about every twenty minutes, in the US by comparison, it's a rape every 45 seconds. Imagine if we applied the same logic to deal with this atrocity as well? Should we take away penises?

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Point 1:

Definition of MILITIA
1 a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency
b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

State governments are subordinate to the US Federal government and the 'enterprise of ambition' that our Federal government displays is the primary reason for a well-organized state militia.

This statement also addresses Point 2 in part, further, it is not the point to defend ourselves against our government per se, but to defend ourselves against factions within our government that may attempt to overthrow the established and lawful government.

Citizens should not fear their government, government should fear its citizens.

Point 3:
I don't disagree with your points here, but as a counter, if the US had a legally armed and properly trained citizenry then there would have been individuals in place to reduce the mortality or prevent the gun violence from occurring.

To me, gun control is ensuring that gun owners are trained in the appropriate and safe use of firearms.

Point 4:
I agree completely with you on this one.

Point 5:
Re: Point 3 emphasis

Points 6 through 15:
I will tentatively agree with the validity of most of your points, and I also agree that guns are too readily available, but I believe that a properly trained gun owner is no more dangerous than a cooing infant.

Originally posted by spock51


The Constitution of the US is not perfect, but I am not aware of one better and damn few its equal.

Try the English Bill of Rights, and the Magna Carta, both of which were copied by your degenerate nation to form your baseless, worthless little "constitution".

Originally posted by Grimpachi
Wow this thread is still going

. All the points made by the OP have been pretty much destroyed so why are people still debating. The arguments the OP made were weak and full of holes. The OP wouldn’t directly address many peoples responses instead the OP would deflect from the topic. I didn’t expect much from someone who lives in a sheltered society but I thought he/she would have better debating skills than what I have seen. Maybe the OP will take an opportunity at some point in his/her life to see America firsthand at that point he/she will realize just how foolish the OP is with what he/she wrote.

Im upto page 10 of the thread and have addressed every single point made, not 1 argument has been destroyed as you say, in fact quite the opposite.
It basically comes down to are more guns the answer to Americas gun problem...

Short answer NO, anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

So what exactly would seeing the US first hand make me realise? that your society is so messed up that yes you need a gun to get by? that its so good guns are unecessary? seriously wht would being in the US make me see?

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


For starters my original post which you only deflected with your answers then my follow up post which you deflected again by never directly addressing the issues which you have done repeatedly through this thread including the thread that was made that destroyed every single point you made.

There I answered your question. If you go back and directly address the issues I brought up then there may be hope for you but as it stands right now your arguments are null and void.

reply to post by jaynkeel

I'm sorry can you please point out to me where the expiration date is? Last time I checked there wasn't one. In the United States we have guns and are allowed to according to our governing documents, if you don't like it either move, or don't come here, problem solved. There are lots of countries that feel the same way as you and their societies are already setup to accommodate people who share your line of thinking. But as others have said until the governments worldwide decide to stop killing and using firearms then I will hold onto mine as well, just in case.

Theres no expiry date but things change, its not the same climate as it was when it was written surely you see that?
Being there or not has no relevance, have you ever posted on an Israel thread or a Japan thread?

Governments and armies are not the same as civilians walking into cinemas, malls and schools shooting people up, do you seriously not understand that?