Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered, page 17

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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

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It's just kinda funny how you're not American. You claim to be on a international forum. and claim freedom of speech. then tell everyone what there reply should be? and threaten with a ban if the reply is not upto you're liking?
1St. Step is practice what you preach. IF you expect to have freedom of speech here. Then expect everyone to have freedom of speech! NOT JUST YOU......

1st: its in our constitution. Do you really want to say its not? I know with you not being american and not being able to understand that it is our constitution is a base for what America stands for. You know what happens to a house when it foundation falls apart? same thing apply's here.

2: We need them to defend ourselves against the government.
With at this time all the corruption that is in our gov. We need this more then ever. We do have one of the best military in the world we trust our military its the people in charge of the military is who we dont trust.

3: its not just the US that has this problem. I have never really seen to many debates about guns and have this reply. I think here your just trying to reach for something that you cant even see?

4Its part of our culture/ its a tradition. To me this is just another reach for some blank AIR. It falls back to the #1 its in our constitution. But i understand you have no clue what it means to have a constitution. You really need to learn to accept this fact that its part of our base principals.

5: if guns are banned then only criminals will have guns. This is very true. Look at history. what happened to Australia when they took away guns. crime rate when up, gangs was entering homes taking over families. wile families was defenceless. dont you ever learn from the past at all? look at what happened to the crime rate in Texas. when they opened up and relaxed the gun laws so everyone could own a gun. crime rate when down. Them crazys had to think 2x before going into a home that the home owner more then likeley had a gun waiting.
If i made money by braking into homes whos do you think i would brake into first 1 that has a gun or 1 i know dont have a gun? it does not take a very smart person to figure this out.

6: is reaching for air again

7 guns dont kill people people kill people. To me this is very true. In your post you talk about how a sword can not be used as a tool. Head to the Amazon NOT amazon.c*&. And tell them people that sword are not tools only weapons. no matter if you take the guns away or not there will always be deaths. just like a day before this school shooting in china somebody went nuts and stabbed 20 people in a school. taking guns away did nothing for them.

8: i need it to keep my family safe: I also agree with this. Granted i am like you i have never needed a gun in my house as of yet to keep my family safe. But everybody does not live in a area like yours. and this i understand that people in different area's need different tools. I could very easly see if guns was took away gangs would have a time of there life sending in say 5 people into a family household and taking it over. raping and killing everything in site whatever they want. last year about 1 hour away from my house a single man broke down a door to a family's house killed the mother and father and raped the kids then killed them and stuffed them into a tree. they did not own a gun. My wife wants us to get a gun sense this has happened. The guy did not even have a gun that broke into the house. He just was a large powerfull person.

9: guns aren't the issue, we need to help mental people. This is just air once more. What we going to do come out with a device that will detect when somebody is going to snap?

10: look at what happened in the uk after guns were taking away. History does repeat it self. i dont know much about the UK but i do know what happened in Australia. you really cant expect the result to be different from the same actions? you know if you try same thing over and over again and expect a different result each time is insane.

11: i dont know much about

12: I use it for hunting. Looks like your even ok with that one

13: most gun crimes happen in gun free zones. the statement could be true i'm not sure if it is or not. but your comment under it is not. Its a really sick game these crazys play. To some of these sicko's its how many you can take out before you go out. This is the reason why i feel this last shooter went into a elm school to get a body count. i know its sick but some people are just sick

14: America isnt the worst by far when it somes to gun deaths. on this one your actually justifying everyones death in other country's. For what to move America up your poll? thats kinda stretching it again isnt it?

15: i dont care im keeping my guns. on this one your all over the place just tring to reach for something that is not there go back to 1

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

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First off...it says the right of The People

It doesn't say the right of the standing army. To understand this fully you need to understand that there was a Continental Army and a well regulated militia of citizens fighting in the Revolutionary War.The militia was just the countrymen who wanted freedom and joined up just serve for the war and guess what, they all had guns.

Your statistics are totally skewed.. A few things that have to be put into the equation that you're totally missing.

Guns are more abundant in the US making them an easier "go-to" TOOL for a murder. Comparatively speaking, the HOMICIDE rate per capita in the US is not even in the upper half of countries worldwide. Russia has more than double the US and a few other "westernized" countries rank higher.

"Westernized" shouldn't matter, as there is nothing that says "westernized" culture is superior to other cultures and "westernized" culture affects nearly all of the top countries with highest homicide rates. I think industrialized countries would be a better generality.

The UK ranks as the MOST VIOLENT country in the world. They have more violent crimes committed per capita than anyone else.. by a LONGSHOT. Even South Africa.

The US population is the third largest worldwide, so per-capita only gives you an idea of how many occur but not the frequency on a TIME scale. When dealing with a population this large, the frequency will seem higher but is on par with other places like the Netherlands or Norway with a drastically lower population.

There are tons of socio-economic issues in the US that most European countries or industrialized nations don't experience either. Our country and immigrant population is incredibly diverse. Poverty levels are also linked to homicide rates and violent crimes.. Europe is comprised of the WEALTHIEST population by averages, and many of the European countries dwarf the US on violence.

There are more knife related crimes per capita in the UK (double) than there are gun related crimes per capita in the US.

The US also deals with Central and South American Drug Cartels and moderately open borders. The violence these cartels brings in skews these statistics for gun deaths as well.

Statistics show that 80 percent of gun crimes in the US are committed with illegal firearms. 12 percent are committed with legally owned guns and 6 percent are unaccounted for. I don't think removing the guns from law abiding citizen will reduce the crime rates. You can buy a gun from "online black markets" for god's sake. You NEVER hear about the people who prevent crimes or murder because they were well armed. The media in the US is a powerful force that has truly achieved its goal of shaping public opinion. You are undoubtedly a victim.

Also, lets not throw logic out the window. This point is overlooked in every argument. It's the person that commits the crime. Blaming it on the gun is cowardly and ignorant of reality. The people that do this have developed some innate defect that has driven them to kill. You are overlooking people and society as a whole. We breed violence into society. We all want to take part in society but few of us are willing to take the blame for the negatives we produce. You can't blame the tool used. The person is responsible for everything they CHOSE to do. The gun didn't aim itself, or fire itself. A sick individual did. The mental health status of people today based on all of the issues and hardships we endure is something that needs to be deeply evaluated.

Lastly, the whole reason the US exists is because of liberties and freedom. That is something you guys don't understand across the pond. We left Europe because we didn't have the liberties that we desired. We have a document called the constitution that explicitly states what those GIVEN liberties are and shall not be infringed upon. This again, is something you guys simply cannot relate to. You can't legislate freedom or liberty. I'm sorry, but until you've lived it and breathed it.. You can't weigh in on something like this. The reason you're still there is because your ancestors feared the oppressive government and feared taking a step into the unknown in the name of furthering humanity. You wan't to attack the US for "spreading Democracy" and western ideologies into other countries, but you're quick to force your own on us. To clarify, I do not agree with the US's foreign conduct, but was using it to drive home this point. There are things in the US that are unlike ANYWHERE else in the world. The economic disparity and cultural diversity here is something you don't experience to the same degree. These are all issues that feed into violence and murder.


Firearm Related Deaths By Country

Intentional Homicide Rates by Country

Most Violent Country in The World

reply to post by Dragoon01

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I'm not willing to kill anyone, it's not something I aspire to be - a murderer, unlike yourself, obviously.

Thanks for your response, though - the reason I fixated on the spelling error is simple - you basically said I was too stupid to understand, rude begats rude my friend, you can give it out so take it on the chin.

You then went on to make remarks like "if you had a clue about the technical aspects of missiles" and followed that comment by telling me that they're fired out of the desert all the time - that's not a "technical" aspect of missile technology, is it?

Essentially - you spouted crap and got it back...we all know you don't care...about anyone...but you, your rights, your liberties, your freedoms.

I guess that's where we differ, you contemplate murder to get your own way, me? I understand fully that to function as part of any society - one must make some sacrifices and compromises...you seem to disagree with that, it's what you want that's important to you. So kill away, I'll just carry on with my life...buy all the guns you want, who gives a shiny - it ain't really my worry - I'm out, so spare yourself any further effort trying to educate me.

And to add, before I carry on with my life - it's not the gun I fear, it's the idiot holding it...people with this "I'm all that matters" mentality - people like yourself, who would sooner kill than give up their guns...pathetic. You judge everyone by your standards, if you're dumb enough to assume that because you are responsible (I'll assume, benefit of the doubt and that) that everyone else who owns a gun is responsible too...then I feel heart sorry for you.

Bye.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

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I don't pretend to understand tea time or the royal family..

Please do not pretend to understand our constitution and our right to bear arms.

i do not own a gun because I attempt to keep myself safe by different means. By living in good areas and taking the proper precautions.

however there are times when you maybe in a situation where you can't avoid living in a crime filled area. At that point I would like the ability to have a fire arm to defend myself.

One thing i have never understood. People will freak out if you declaw a cat and put it outside with clawed stray cats..... but its okay to take weapons from law abiding citizens and put them out there with armed criminals.

but i am sure you will say "oh that is different" of course it is.

Originally posted by samerulesapply
reply to post by Dragoon01

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I'm not willing to kill anyone, it's not something I aspire to be - a murderer, unlike yourself, obviously.

Thanks for your response, though - the reason I fixated on the spelling error is simple - you basically said I was too stupid to understand, rude begats rude my friend, you can give it out so take it on the chin.

You then went on to make remarks like "if you had a clue about the technical aspects of missiles" and followed that comment by telling me that they're fired out of the desert all the time - that's not a "technical" aspect of missile technology, is it?

Essentially - you spouted crap and got it back...we all know you don't care...about anyone...but you, your rights, your liberties, your freedoms.

I guess that's where we differ, you contemplate murder to get your own way, me? I understand fully that to function as part of any society - one must make some sacrifices and compromises...you seem to disagree with that, it's what you want that's important to you. So kill away, I'll just carry on with my life...buy all the guns you want, who gives a shiny - it ain't really my worry - I'm out, so spare yourself any further effort trying to educate me.

And to add, before I carry on with my life - it's not the gun I fear, it's the idiot holding it...people with this "I'm all that matters" mentality - people like yourself, who would sooner kill than give up their guns...pathetic. You judge everyone by your standards, if you're dumb enough to assume that because you are responsible (I'll assume, benefit of the doubt and that) that everyone else who owns a gun is responsible too...then I feel heart sorry for you.

Bye.

edit on 19-12-2012 by samerulesapply because: Additional

I shake my head in wonder.

First off I didn’t take offense to you fixating on my typo. I made that comment to demonstrate that your only reply to me was to fixate on a typo!
It takes WAAAAY more than that to get me offended. OH by the way I didn’t make a typo there I added extra “A’s” so show emphasis.

My point about missiles is this. If you were familiar with the technical aspects of missiles you would be aware that there is nothing that essentially differentiates them from model rockets.
People go out to the desert all the time and launch very sophisticated model rockets.
Nothing prohibits any of those people from adding an explosive warhead and using those model rockets to destroy something.
They are basically the missile that you tried to use as an absurd exaggeration.


Back to the important aspects of my point.
Your right I do judge other people by my standard. I keep out of other people’s business. I don’t wish ill on anyone regardless of what you think. I don’t expect others to take care of me.
I don’t covet what others have. I don’t desire to have the government do for me what I cannot do for myself. I don’t desire to have the government impose my beliefs on others.
I don’t desire to have the government kill other people so I can get my way. Obviously you cant fathom that. I must be selfish and pathetic because I don’t think like you do.

One day it will all be settled.
People like you will try and send other people to get in our business, to impose your beliefs, to take from me what is mine, to kill me so you can get your way.
Then people like me will be forced to shoot those people. Maybe we will die and maybe we won’t but it will get settled.

reply to post by samerulesapply

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What makes you think anyone here who is pro-gun has any desire to be a murderer? The point of it is to keep govt tyranny at bay. My ancestor fought at age 14 in the Revolutionary War for your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

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I've resisted clicking on this absurd title for days . . . I just didn't want to see one more case of abject irrationality about the issue.

Nevertheless, my curiosity to see if there was some new angle from . . . those terminally unthoughtful and terminally uninformed . . . I clicked on it.

Alas . . . it's as I suspected.

Nothing significantly in the realm of rational thought is used as justification to destroy our crucial last ditch means against globalist tyranny was posted.

It seems like when the issue strikes the consciousness of a huge range of persons . . . rational thought leaves the building.

It's like this fairy god-mummy-dearest comes down and drains their brains of any sanity about guns.

It's like the bottom line is something like . . .

[color=6699FF]"--guns scare me and I can't imagine dealing with such violence so I'll pretend it's all stupid and has to go away--JUST 'CAUSE! I think so and I'm always right. "[/color]

IMPRESSIVE. /sar

I'd rather not see anyone suffer horrific consequences of their uninformed perspectives and conclusions . . . . We all make stupid mistakes.

However, there'd be some sort of just deserts . . . for a lot of gun grabbers . . . to be faced to face with a home gun robbery and have absolutely no recourse but to see horrific consequences of their ignorant perspectives about guns. May God forbid and may they wake-up before such an event.

May they, instead, have a series of very vivid and horrific nightmares which illustrate for them the folly of their convictions about guns.

I don't think there's a whole lot of sense in trying to reason with gun grabbers. It's not a rational, reasonable problem.

imho, It's an emotional, psycho-dynamic problem leaving them out of touch with standard reality on the matter.

However, maybe some lurkers on the fence will learn something that will end up enabling them to protect their families..

reply to post by AwakeinNM

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OK so its personal stories now
I got 1 for ya, today I dropped my kid at school and he will never come home as some sicko was able to easily access a legally purchased weapon and kill him.
Reapeat that story 20 times and it kinda trumps your "I felt scared but my gun makes me feel safe" story

Once again it comes down to fear, you feel scared and threatened but having a gun takes that away.

Everyone on both sides agrees crims will get guns but if an unarmed populace is such an easy target and crims see it as a free for all shouldnt Australia and Britains crime rates be through the roof compared to yours?

And once again quotes from 200+ years ago that were made in a time of war by leaders of a country with no standing army are just not relevant in todays world

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by AwakeinNM

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OK so its personal stories now
I got 1 for ya, today I dropped my kid at school and he will never come home as some sicko was able to easily access a legally purchased weapon and kill him.
Reapeat that story 20 times and it kinda trumps your "I felt scared but my gun makes me feel safe" story

Once again it comes down to fear, you feel scared and threatened but having a gun takes that away.

Everyone on both sides agrees crims will get guns but if an unarmed populace is such an easy target and crims see it as a free for all shouldnt Australia and Britains crime rates be through the roof compared to yours?

And once again quotes from 200+ years ago that were made in a time of war by leaders of a country with no standing army are just not relevant in todays world

UK's murder rate in 1960 was 0.62 per 100K, today, after all of the gun control laws, it is 1.2 per 100K. Stil low, but double nonetheless. In Australia, in 1949, it was 1.0. Now it is 1.5 per 100K. If gun control made them safer, shoudn't it have gone the other way?

Yes it comes down to fear. You fear an inanimate object and you want to restrict other law abiding citizens because it makes you feel better.

What our FF said and did 200 years ago are very relevent in today's world. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, all have proven their philosophies correct.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

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"some sicko was able to easily access a legally purchased weapon and kill him"-IkNOwSTuff

I believe we have come to some agreements via PM and for the time being I'll try not to be an a$$hole.

In reguards to the above quote...... Place me in any city in America and within 24 hours I could have anything illegal that you ever wanted. Not including explosives. Just saying.

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