Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered

reply to post by brandiwine14

I feel that I must encourage you to take a step back and reread what you wrote. Do you really have no understanding at all as to why this quote could be important? Historical quotes exist and are repeated for several reasons:
To remind us to not let history repeat itself. They also serve as positive affirmations of who we are and who we can be and must always strive to be. and lastly this paticular one is special it serves as a reminder that we the people will lose our freedom when we give up our constitution.

Historical quotes can also be repeated because the person doing the quoting has nothing from modern times thats relevant and also for the emotional response it triggers in people, If Lincoln, Aristotle, Einstein, Churchill, Muhammed etc etc said it then it must be correct and infallible.
Once again they were different times, constitutions like everything need to change and adapt with time and circumstances.

It's not about gun rights only it's about our rights as Americans, please stop trying to take my rights away. I have said it before it another post and ill say it again please go read 1984 by George Orwell, people like you and need a reality check.

Call me crazy but I feel the right everyone feels to have a gun should be outweighed by the right to not have to live in a society where you need to worry about wackos shooting up schools.
Ive read 1984 several times, great book in fact one of my favourites with The Alchemist, The Wheel Of Time and Dune.
If the people advocating free access to guns on this site are to be believed it seems like the American government is screwing you over pretty good even with the fact you all have guns.
Perhaps if you all put as much effort into worrying about your other freedoms as much as you do your guns you wouldnt be so fearful and want guns in the first place.

Not sure which of your great orators said it but the phrase "The people shouldnt be scared of the government, the government should be scared of the people" is appropriate. If you fear your gov so much get rid of them, the second you use your guns against them your a terrorist and open game for reprisal and at best it turns into civil war. Do it peacefully and if the gov fire on you the rest of the world has to help you, and we would.

You use your weapons your on your own and in my mind will get what you deserve.

He who lives by the sword dies by the sword, and so it goes with guns

reply to post by MegaMind

I find your blind faith in government disturbing. You seem to be under the impression that we live in a world where there are no bad people. That people never break into occupied houses armed. That governments have never killed people by the thousands - millions. You think evil exists in some faraway land or in some time in the distant past.

LOL have no faith in governments let alone the US gov but guns arent going to help you against them, Ive been over this many times so wont repeat it.

I have seen evil up close and personal. I assure you it is real. You can't argue or rationalize with it. All you can do is be prepared to defend yourself from it.

Many people have seen evil yet dont feel so afraid they need a gun, guns arent the only means to defend yourself

I would love to live in a world without guns, any guns, anywhere. I would love to live in a world where people care more about people than they do about making profits at their expense. Where the people in government care only about helping people live happier healthier lives, in freedom and peace. Heck even better, a world where government is not even needed. But that is not reality is it? Why don't you come back down to reality.

Amen to that, wouldnt we all

My belief is that you think guns are seriously your answer in this day and age to a tyrannical gov its you who needs to come back to reality

If you wake up to the sound of the window by your door being broken what are you going to do?

Most intruders if they realise someone knows they are there will flee, vast majority of home invasions (at least in Oz) are stopped simply by someone screaming or turning on a light.
Most home invasions are about burglary and not murder or rape as most of you seem to think.

Home invasions that end in death are usually a result of confronting or surprising a burglar not because of an intent to murder, someones in your home, screaming Ive got a gun will usually do the trick

reply to post by HappyLIBERTARIAN

www.ncpa.org... Crime has actually gone up in Australlia since their ban. The onlly people who turn in their guns are the people who follow the laws. Criminals are not going to follow the laws and will still have their unregistered guns to use on the unarmed law abiding citizens. I think you are leaving out a crucial element. Our population is way too medicated and a lot of these prescriptions have a lot of bad stuff in them. I think we should look at the harmful effects Ritalin, anti-deppresants and these sort of drugs we are overloading the society with.

No one in Australia (at least no one I know) is scared of being shot or even held up with a gun, I doubt very much that gun crime went up because even before the buy back scheme hardly anyone had a gun anyway!!!!

The increase in crime is due to an increase in drug use, very very few citizens will ever be a victim of gun crime. Shops are another issue and they will be held up with guns but even if they were able to have a gun behind the counter are you suggesting an employee should risk their life for maybe a few $1000 thats not theirs and insured anyway?

Australia isnt an issue 99% of the population doesnt want guns, the only people I know who want to own guns are the sort of people you definatly dont want having guns.

Your comment about legal drugs I couldnt agree more, I had a mate get put on ritalin, after 3 months he was a completely different person and not for the better.

There are other ways to stop these things from happening. With technology the way it is, there are ways to make guns only operable to the owner of the gun. I'm sure gun companies don't want to persue this though because they are making tons of money by making them cheap for the average person to buy. I just think more people need to have safes that use only thumbprints of the gun owner will work. That way kids can't get to them, and you can still open them fast enough and have them loaded in the case of a burglary.

Its a simple fact that practically all the guns in the US in criminal hands were legally purchased, if something like you suggest was implemented its very unlikely this debate would even be happening, so why isnt this the case? surely if it was illegal to not have your gun locked away it wouldnt infringe upon your 2nd amendment rights?
Why dont you gun lovers push for this? Or would that qualify as actually admitting theres an issue?

I just feel you are anti gun and I probably wasted my time even explaining my 2 cents on the issue, but I am sure others have opinions like mine and would rather be able to have a gun and not need it ever, than not have a gun and watch some crazy guy come in and do something horrible to my family with a gun in his hand since he doesn't care about silly laws written from the real tyrants.

True you didnt change my mind but you gave me some interesting insight and you put forward a possible solution which is a hell of alot more than most people have done.
I know your pro gun and Im not gonna change your mind yet I dont feel it was a waste of time, your an intelligent reasonable person and debate between reasonable people is always healthy provided they dont take it personally or turn rude.

I appreciate your input. Star for you

reply to post by Jameliel

"Let me start by saying yes I hate guns and No Im not American."
Then shut-up and never touch a gun. I have guns and I have never shot anyone. So what if the military has tanks. Its the PRINCIPLE. If they EVER send a squad or team of men to try and take my guns, then I will definitely take at least a few of them with me. I too know military maneuvers. Don't start trouble with me, and there won't be any trouble.

Dont worry I wont,

Good for you, you die for your guns. You actually sound like you hope it happens.
You sound like the sort of person who shouldnt have a gun.

Anyone who actually wants to or looks forward to using a gun shouldnt be trusted with one in my opinion

Originally posted by pheniks
you forgot one, i hope its not posted yet, cant make myself reading every post

after 1-2 pages the letters seem to jump up and down

and i believe in case of some form of alien invasion, the most likely heroes are the ones in numbers, and thats us, the ppl, ok i live in holland and i dont have a gun, but i would gladly be anyones neigbour in america wshtf

edit on 18-12-2012 by pheniks because: (no reason given)

Ok Im pretty sure your joking but Ill play.

If a species can travel interstellar space they will have shield technology that will render all our weapons obsolete, our only hope when the aliens come is to use country music to blow up their heads.
To suggest anything else is just stupid

Originally posted by MisterMaster
Heres one you cannot address or counter:

If I give you my guns right now, can you promise me that when I leave my house noone else will have a gun and use it against me? Not a chance.

Thats the only reason I wont give up mine.

You wont give them up because you live in fear, fearful people are irrational and do stupid things.

Originally posted by HappyLIBERTARIAN
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

Pretty sad you have to remind others that you are intelligent in your header. Ego much?

I agree its sad, its like my amazing good looks, people often miss it unless I point it out

reply to post by USXpat


I agree with you on the precedent thing but as you mention at the end the military is made up of normal Americans, I agree the gov probably doesnt give 2 poos about your lives but does the military?
It seems like you agree the military isnt going to fire on you and would most likely take your side.

Saying you need it to protect yourself from the gov to me seems like the weakest argument you guys have, the precedent thing... Well cant argue there but if you guys are so worried then you need to do something about it before your liberties are eroded further.

Once again Ill ask, why do Americans only seem to give a crap about liberties and freedom when it comes to guns? why isnt there the same uproar and raw emotion with anything else?

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

8) I need it to keep my family safe

Everyone the world over worries about their families safety and security but most of us do just fine without a gun.
The reason most of you have put forward is that criminals have guns so you need them.
As addressed above the more guns in circulation the easier it is for the bad people to get them, it is a self defeating argument.

Let's take a look at #8 on your list of dribble...

You state that "most of us do just fine without a gun". The word "most" is not the same as the word "all". If even the remotest of chance exists that someone may commit a violent crime against myself or my family, I have not only a right but a duty to defend against the aggressor for the life and safety of myself and my family. If having a gun at my disposal strengthens my odds of defeating the aggressor, then that gun and the right to possess and use it is a necessity that I cannot and will not surrender at any cost.

On item #1 in your list of dribble...
The president is the "commander-in-chief" of the U.S. military forces. They take their orders from him.

The "militia" is the "people's army", so to speak. It is comprised of every able person willing to fight in the defence of the Constitution.

If you check Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution then you will see that the Militia is under the authority of Congress, not the president... "The Congress shall have the Power... To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repeal Invasions;"

In the Second Amendment, it is clearly stated that the a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State. We are that which stands in the way of a possibly tyrannical government turning its military forces against the people. Without an armed people, ready to stand as a Militia, there is nothing to stand in the way of true tyranny within America.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Home invasions that end in death are usually a result of confronting or surprising a burglar not because of an intent to murder, someones in your home, screaming Ive got a gun will usually do the trick

edit on 21/12/2012 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)

Usually? What if it doesn't work. What if burglary is not what they have in mind. You see I had someone peeking in on my gf when she was home alone. Stealing my TV wasn't on his mind.

This is not open for debate. My guns are mine for the protection of myself and my family. Your rationalizations won't mean sh!t if someone comes into my home with bad intentions. I think I'll keep my guns ... you keep living in your dream ...

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by MisterMaster
Heres one you cannot address or counter:

If I give you my guns right now, can you promise me that when I leave my house noone else will have a gun and use it against me? Not a chance.

Thats the only reason I wont give up mine.

You wont give them up because you live in fear, fearful people are irrational and do stupid things.

That doesn't sound like "fear" to me. It sounds more like a person who refuses to give up his right to adequately protect himself should he ever encounter a life-threatening situation.

Even if guns were to be outlawed, there is absolutely nothing to prevent outlaws from acquiring guns or other weapons of large destruction. Where they once saw people who might be able to defend themselves against attack, they would now see helpless, defenseless sheep ready to be butchered for their amusement and profit. Nothing announces louder and more clearly to a person with criminal intent that a potential victim approaches than the knowledge that the potential victim will be defenseless.

I can only hope you are not European, OP. You guys started two World Wars (the only world wars we ever had), so why would anyone take advice concerning violence and peace from a European? At least the United States of America and its people have proven we know how to END conflicts, and establish peace (whether you agree with our ways or not)!

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


And what of this?
www.youtube.com...#!

reply to post by MikeNice81


Sorry its taken so long to reply to this, I have been busy and also needed a break LOL

I love these lists that always leave out smaller countries or "non industrialized" countries. It strikes me that they leave out countries with brown skin people. It always strikes me as a form of elitism. It is almost like saying they don't matter, or that it should be expected.

Its necessary because the way of life and mentality is so different in industrialised nations Vs developing ones as any comparison is just ridiculous. Its got nothing to do with rascism or elitism or any other ISM its just common sense. I think you know that though.

I never said America didn't have a problem with violence. You said that it was strictly an American problem. High "gun murder" rates are not strictly an American problem. Mass violence is not strictly an American problem. We do have a problem in this country with violence.

Yes I said mass shootings are strictly an American problem, as gun advocates love to point out most countries have had their tragedies but it no other country is it a regular occurrence. IT IS STRICTLY AN AMERICAN PROBLEM!!!!!!!!

However, poor mental health services, sub-standard public education, a culture of military expansionism and adventurism, uncertain economies, a vanishing middle class (sense of hopelessness), a growing sense of entitlement, a glorification of consumerism, and other factors contribute more than guns.

Other countries have the issues you describe above yet we dont have shootings every few months.
The above factors combined with easy gun access and what seems like a genuine itching or even longing to use them is the problem.

We have a long way to go, but all of our violent crime rates - including murder - are at or near twenty year lows. However, if you look at Mexico you will see the direction America could travel. The only places in America with rising crimes rates are the areas that try to continuously tighten gun regulations. NYC, New Jersey, Baltimore, Chicago, Phillie, and other such cities show a simple fact of economics. When there is a financial incentive people will find a way to do something. All of those cities tightened gun controls. The criminals realized that meant fewer people would be armed to retaliate.

Are rising crime rates the result of gun restrictions or are gun restrictions the result of rising crime rates?
Id heard that crime rates in NYC were dropping.
No one in Australia carries a gun on them, why arent crims running around with impunity robbing and raping with guns here like you all seem to think would happen should you not be carrying yours?

The black market in guns exploded. DC's murder rate was more than ten times higher than that of Arlington Virginia. The criminal stood to make more money if he invested in a gun. It makes people easier to rob, it makes it easier to kill off competition. The predator now had a weapon they prey did not. Before long violent crime, burglaries, robberies, and murder went up.

Sorry but the murder rate went down in the 10 years after guns were banned and no other method or murder went up, this is a fact and makes your argument invalid.
Not sure why you compared Arlington and DC but the population of DC is almost double that of Arlington, the smaller a place is generally means the less crime

Trying to over regulate or prohibit guns in America will actually lead to more death than we have now. It has also become evident with countries like Mexico and Colombia. When guns are restricted too harshly and there is a prohibition of drugs already violent gangs get more violent. Corruption spreads through the police and military at a break neck speed and the "War on Drugs" really does turn your country in to a war zone.

Why would drug dealers care if the population is armed? police and gov officials who have guns or people with guns to protect them are still dying in Mexico, Mexican gangs are getting more violent due to a crackdown by the governemnt not because the people are disarmed

look at the people that create most of the violence. They are usually the poorest people with the longest histories of repression, the lowest education, the least chance of advancement, and the least access to mental and physical health services. They are the ones that feel the most powerless and feel like they have the least to lose. Regardless of race, those are the ones that usually end up acting out violently.

Yes and due to your antiquated gun laws they also have easy access to guns!!!!

Interesting bit about surveys. I'll try to look in to it more when I'm not at work. I've already killed my break time.

I hear ya, My GF has come to hate this site and this thread specifically

reply to post by usmc0311

How is a drone going to disarm people if a gun ban were to go into effect. Drones do two things, surveilance, and killing. Do you suppose they will just ban guns and send hellfire missles through the front doors of registered gun owners? This just makes no sense to me.

What I was suggesting is that it came to open warfare the gov wouldnt play fair and send troops who were armed similarly to you after you. It would be drones and tanks and anyone firing back would just be blown to bits.
I dont think it would ever get to this but the simple fact that they have and would use all the tech at their disposal against you negates the "We need it to fight off the Gov" argument

Also one point many are leaving out is how much money some people have invested in their firearms. If the government ever wanted a chance at getting guns without massive rebellion would be by insituting a fair buy-back program. I'm sure some would give them up for money, especially with times being as tough as they are. But the government is not that smart so that won't happen any time soon.

I agree that a voluntary buy back scheme is the way forward, you want to hang on to your guns fine, Its obvious that half the gun owners are so stupid they would actually lay down their lives over their guns so its just not an option to take them all by force.
Start a buy back and stop selling them, do you really need more than 1 or at most 2 guns for protection?

reply to post by StalkerSolent

Why do you hate guns?

Because they serve one purpose and that purpose is to kill, in this day and age they are not necessary.
I can understand the mentality of "I need one because everyone else has one" but the fact none of you hate guns and most even seem to love them should tell you that people dont care about logic they just want their guns.

Fortunately the Supreme Court has chosen not to interpret it that way (after researching the issue.) Back in the day, the armed militia was the armed citizenry...wish it was still that way.

OK lets follow the original wording "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" are you in support of the criminally insane having access to weapons? the 2nd doesnt make any allowances for any restrictions, you either agree its outdated or agree that everyone no matter how unstable is allowed to have guns

So the idea that the government might turn on the people isn't so far-fetched, is it?

I think it is, it would need the help of most of the army which is made up of citizens. Would they really turn on you?

The same thing that peasants armed with AKs and handguns did in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It is amazing what a single determined person with a rifle can do, and a considerable portion of American citizens are trained in their use.

Different times, different circumstances and many leaps in technology since then.
Sorry but you fight the gov with guns your dead, simple as that. Fight them with your voices and minds they are

reply to post by seriousskeptic

I could not help but notice you,either, over looked or neglected to address my favorite reason for having a gun. Simply; I want one!

Falls under my last point.

reply to post by Shadowcast

I have yet to hear a reply. Why would you uneven the playing field between criminals and civilians when buying a gun is a mouse click away anywhere in the world for anyone with the money. Illegal is not inaccessible.

Criminals dont usually use their guns on civilians, its bad for business. Crims who use guns on people are usually druggies looking for a fix not some criminal mastermind or muderer.

As for gun free zones being the target of choice

I would argue it has to do with a large amount of people in a small space with not many places to hide as opposed to knowing guns arent going to be carried. And as for the school shootings they are usually students with a grudge not calculating masterminds

reply to post by JiggyPotamus

No matter what you say regarding Americans' right to bear arms is going to change the fact that you are wrong. Your interpretation, along with many others, of our constitution is just plain wrong as well. It clearly states that peoples' right to bear arms should not be infringed upon. This is not referring to the militia, but the citizenry. If you had read the commentary and works of America's Founding Fathers, you would have realized this.

OK so any citizen and not just the militia, fair enough.
According to you and the founding fathers the criminally insane are having their god given rights infringed upon when not being able to get guns.
So is the 2nd Amendment outdated or should everyone no matter how psycho be able to own semi automatic weapons?

The one thing people who want to take guns away do not realize is that they serve a purpose. The purpose of being allowed to have guns is so that the people can protect themselves against a tyrannical government.

The foolishness of this argument has been addressed so many times its no longer funny

And I will take it a step further and make the argument that the citizenry should be allowed to have every type of weapon the military has. This is the only way to ensure that we can adequately defend ourselves against the military, and I think this is what the constitution meant. At the time firearms were not very advanced, and I doubt they thought ahead so far as to what firearms would look like in the future...This is why they used the more ambiguous statement "bear arms."

You saying you should be allowed to buy tanks and even nukes?
I think you just proved the 2nd is not for our times therefore outdated

Have addressed your ideas on the gov killing people many times as well.

It wont happen aand if it does quite simply your dead. I think anyone who cant that is being naive and having a gun has addled their brain