States petitioning to secede from union, page 8

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ATS Members have flagged this thread 31 times

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:04 PM by MasonicFantom

reply to post by Komonazmuk

Your point from that angle seemed irrelevant initially, but whoa, you're right, Texas would be too incompetent to hire some border patrol agents. We the need nanny state for that because they've done such an excellent job so far with the illegal immigrant population exploding... I especially like when they constantly turn down ideas from private organizations or even non-profit organizations, like the American Border Patrol, that show far more successful border patrol techniques.

But wait, maybe that wasn't your point either. What is your point?

edit on 11-11-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:10 PM by Komonazmuk

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
reply to post by Komonazmuk

Your point from that angle seemed irrelevant initially, but whoa, you're right, Texas would be too incompetent to hire some border patrol agents. We the need nanny state for that because they've done such an excellent job so far with the illegal immigrant population exploding... I especially like when they constantly turn down ideas from private organizations or even non-profit organizations, like the American Border Patrol, that show far more successful border patrol techniques.

But wait, maybe that wasn't your point either. What is your point?
edit on 11-11-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)

My point? It's a delusional fantasy. Like a Rick Perry wet dream rallying-cry. Stirs up emotions, but not practical.

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:11 PM by MasonicFantom

Originally posted by Komonazmuk

Originally posted by MasonicFantom

Originally posted by Komonazmuk

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
And it's not like there wouldn't be government. The states will have their own government and people will be more responsible and accountable. It's a great idea. However, if this petition succeeds, Texas is maybe the best state I see that can take it from theory to actuality.
edit on 11-11-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)

Hope you love Mexico

Hope you love China.

-says the guy with the anime avatar-

Anime is Japanese.

And you missed the point. Continuing along the road we're on = devolving into China. Its been happening on a daily basis and will only be expedited now that there's no reelection to hold back this administration.

edit on 11-11-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:18 PM by Komonazmuk

reply to post by MasonicFantom

Yes I know it was in jest. See above post, I doubt there is any need to play the part of chicken little, the sky might not actually be falling as you've been made to believe.

edit on 11-11-2012 by Komonazmuk because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:19 PM by antonia

reply to post by MasonicFantom

Devolving? You could only wish. China has a space program, manufacturing, and is whopping the U.S. in solar power, and education. Considering we are getting close to having none of those thing I'd say they are doing much better than we are.

As for the whole "Let's secede" issue-That didn't work out so well last go around. You really willing to shed blood over Obama?

edit on 11-11-2012 by antonia because: opps

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:24 PM by Grimpachi

A good case study of this will be Honduras which I am looking forward to seeing how things turn out. I read about it a few months ago how there will be a corporate owned city set up there with its own government and laws. Honduras is one of those countries I do not plan on revisiting in this lifetime I would say I was more paranoid in some places there than I was in many parts of Iraq. (I did like the islands however) I can just imagine it will turn out to be a version of the city that was in that movie Robocop which by the way was what I envisioned the US eventually turning into if Romney had been elected.

On another note : You say they have 25,000 signatures that sounds like a lot but with a quick Google check of Austin’s Tex population is at 790,390 and the closest demographic that fits that number is 65 and over at 55,695. Why not just give them a small county somewhere. For those who can’t tell I am being very sarcastic. I have been to concerts where more people showed up. Something like this for it to even be considered would need to be supported by at least 2 3rds of the state’s population until then it should be treated as the angry ranting’s of a disenfranchised few that it is. 25 thousand signatures aren’t even enough to get a referendum on most local ballots to be voted on it is definitely not enough to be taken seriously.

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:29 PM by TheLegend

Texas pays billions more in federal taxes that leave the state than they do on the federal taxes actually spent in Texas. They could actually decrease taxes for their people if they were to succeed.

They have absurdly massive oil reserves (enough to sustain them for centuries), currently refine 4/5 of all gasoline in the US, have some of the largest trade ports in the world, and manufacture quite a lot still, relative to any other state. The largest in manufacturing tech I think. They could definitely find ways to secure the border better than the fed gov can.

Regardless of someone's opinion on its governor, who imo has done a pretty good job anyway, you can't deny the facts. Talk of Texas succeeding has been drifting around for a long time, among the insightful, for these very reasons. It undeniably would be more successful on its own, it would just require work from the people, which is the biggest problem. Nobody likes working or having responsibility anymore.

edit on 11-11-2012 by TheLegend because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:36 PM by MasonicFantom

reply to post by antonia

I'm glad you're so approving of a communistic way of life. It seems several here are. Someday you too can be working in factories with suicide nets for 18 hours a day and, if you save up for a few months, can afford that purse and book in your avatar. That's this government's vision.

Do you like Nazi Germany? They were well-developed in your specified areas too,

And as far as the shedding blood goes:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
But I don't expect you to believe in the Constitution or Founding Fathers, given your sentiments. Let's instead roll over, beg for mercy, and try to see the silver lining on our route to destruction.

edit on 11-11-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:40 PM by Grimpachi

reply to post by TheLegend

Have you overlooked the fact the oil in that state is managed by private companies unless you are suggesting they go the way of Hugo Chavez and Venezuela then nationalizing the reserves and oil production in which case it could possibly work.

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:45 PM by moonzoo7

Originally posted by HauntWok
This article is from WND. The same people that constantly perpetrate the Birther bull, so I am less than confident that it's real.

Frankly I wouldn't mind if a few states left the union. Most of the states that seem to want to do this are a huge drain on taxpayer money anyway. So let them leave. And make sure that any people wishing to leave along with them are allowed. Of course never to return.

Then we just don't trade with the states that left the union.

Here! Here! I concur with you on this point, my fellow ATS member. Well said and to the point.
I lived in Missouri for 10 years, trust me, America wouldn't be losing anything important!
Missouri would just export meth to survive, sadly.
Louisiana is virtually another PLANET anyway, they kind of do things their own way down there, that wouldn't really change things much. ( No FEMA support for them after the next hurricane they have though....).
And Texas??? SEE YA !

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:47 PM by antonia

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
reply to post by antonia

I'm glad you're so approving of a communistic way of life. It seems several here are. Someday you too can be working in factories with suicide nets for 18 hours a day and, if you save up for a few months, can afford that purse and book in your avatar. That's this government's vision.

China is communist in name only. It's economy is capitalism to it's core. You said they were devolving yet they make more things, have more things and accomplish more things than the U.S. That isn't a sign of devolution.

Do you like Nazi Germany? They were well-developed in your specified areas too,

Godwin's law came up rather quickly I see.

But I don't expect you to believe in the Constitution or Founding Fathers, given your sentiments. Let's instead roll over, beg for mercy, and try to see the silver lining on our route to destruction.
edit on 11-11-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)

Please, no one here is going to be taking up arms over anyone. I saw the same crap when Obama won last time. Considering most of this country is overweight, getting old and broke-I don't think there is going to be a revolt anytime soon. I put better odds on Rosanne falling on her ass and causing a mag 10 earthquake in Cali.

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:48 PM by MasonicFantom

reply to post by Grimpachi

Most oil in the US is managed by private companies. They're not nationalized.

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 09:49 PM by moonzoo7

I hate to drop a one liner, I always try to avoid it. I just have to say it -
Hey, Folks, it's SECEDE, not SUCCEED. Ok, there, a 3 liner

edit on 11-11-2012 by moonzoo7 because: typo, added italics

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 10:02 PM by MasonicFantom

reply to post by antonia

China is communist in name only. It's economy is capitalism to it's core. You said they were devolving yet they make more things, have more things and accomplish more things than the U.S. That isn't a sign of devolution.

You have some misconceptions about China, economically and politically.
The Communist Party of China is its dominant political party till this day and has been since 49. Politically, there's no debating their methods. Now, capitalism? lol. They have special economic zones (SEZs), like Shenzhen, and SARs, like Hong Kong (where my brother works and it's the most capitalistic place on Earth actually). However, over a BILLION of their people are working on slave labor in factories, suicide nets needed and all, in the mainland and are even forbidden from moving to cities like Hong Kong. It's having no "right of abode in Hong Kong". They can't even enter these capitalistic territories w/o special permission. China is not capitalistic. Just places like Hong Kong, which don't even share the same government as the rest of China, are. Actually, this proves succession can work, as it has with HK.

And of course China manufactures more than the US.... They market slave labor and have 3x more people.

edit on 11-11-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 10:06 PM by antonia

reply to post by MasonicFantom

Hong Kong never seceded from China. What are you talking about?

As for your observations about China, you are wrong. Their economy is called "State Capitalism" by most economists and other observers. The other country which practices such an economy is Singapore. I get people on ATS like to use communist for everything they don't like, but the word does have a meaning. Even the Chinese don't call their economy communist anymore.

edit on 11-11-2012 by antonia because: opps

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 10:10 PM by Grimpachi

reply to post by MasonicFantom

I think you failed to see the point I was making.
Maybe because I said state instead of nation however I felt that using the word state was more appropriate when taking into context that we are talking about states succeeding. This is why I said this:

Unless you are suggesting they go the way of Hugo Chavez and Venezuela then nationalizing the reserves and oil production.

Addressing the argument or point that TheLegend was making that Texas has massive oil reserves which I believe he overlooked that those oil reserves are considered by most to be privately owned and I wouldn’t consider them to be a state asset unless changes were made such as how Venezuela did.

Besides the majority of the oil in Texas is Shale or tight oil which requires hydraulic fracturing. The days of the Clampetts where it just bubbled up like a geyser are all but done.

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 10:17 PM by MasonicFantom

reply to post by antonia

Given your response time, you didn't even research what I just said and just say it's wrong. Nobody doubts there's forced labor camps in China and hundreds of millions there even have to live in the factories which they work because they work 18 hours a day and earn not enough to go anywhere else. That's been proven. It's not capitalism to have a caste system. You just emphasize the fact that there's a few capitalistic districts in China and seem in denial that communists run China, when officially, that's the party of China. If you want a one-way conversation, go find a mirror.

HK didn't succeed, but they have a separate government while only paying contribution to the People's Republic of China. Likewise, a state succeeding would have it's separate government.

edit on 11-11-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 10:20 PM by antonia

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
reply to post by antonia

If you want a one-way conversation, go find a mirror.

You should take your own advice.

Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit.[1] Other elements central to capitalism include competitive markets, wage labor and capital accumulation.[2]

en.wikipedia.org...

None of the things you listed are at odds with Capitalism. They are certainly at odds with the idea of a "free market", but they aren't antithetical to capitalism.

HK didn't succeed, but they have a separate government while only paying contribution to the People's Republic of China. Likewise, a state succeeding would have it's separate government.

Considering most of the states crying now can barely govern themselves without running in the red I have serious doubts they will be able to emulate Hong Kong's success. Hong Kong is allowed self-governance in certain areas, it's foreign affairs and defense are left to China. If you can't defend yourself then you really can't call yourself much of a sovereign state can you?

edit on 11-11-2012 by antonia because: added a thought

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 10:25 PM by MasonicFantom

reply to post by Grimpachi

Without punctuation it was hard to see your point.
Licensing and state (national) fees for drilling for oil reserves in Texas is quite reasonable.
You know those private companies already pay the federal gov anyway? Especially the EPA - what a joke organization. It would just be paying the federal gov...of Texas (under the case of succession) instead. And probably can be negotiated for much less than they are now.

reply posted on 11-11-2012 @ 10:38 PM by Grimpachi

reply to post by MasonicFantom

Have you already forgotten the billions in government subsidies the federal government already gives oil companies yet you think Texas would be able to do the same or better. I disagree whole heartedly on that.

The idea of Hong Kong is a model of succession or would be a good comparison is completely off balance. I am sure you know how Hong Kong came to be as it is today so there shouldn’t be any need for history lessons I hope. They are more like a province than a seperate country mostly due to them being an economic asset than any other reason.