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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
Pythagoras and Plato didn't invent paths to knowledge, nor the knowledge they found. They followed paths that were laid out for seekers, by previous masters of previous mysteries schools. They didn't invent the ideals behind gnosis, they just gave it a name, and those within their following adopted the name.
Jesus was also knowledgeable of even more ancient wisdom, passed down not from Levitical doctrine, but of the "Order of Melchizedek, and ancient school of mysticism.
Originally posted by windword
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1
This not anti gnostic, but actually GNOSTIC!
Originally posted by adjensen
Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
Pythagoras and Plato didn't invent paths to knowledge, nor the knowledge they found. They followed paths that were laid out for seekers, by previous masters of previous mysteries schools. They didn't invent the ideals behind gnosis, they just gave it a name, and those within their following adopted the name.
Look, bottom line -- do you agree that there was a specific group of people, who were Greeks that had developed a religion based on Plato's philosophy and other Greek thinking (regardless of where they got those ideas from,) and who were called Gnostics?
Jesus was also knowledgeable of even more ancient wisdom, passed down not from Levitical doctrine, but of the "Order of Melchizedek, and ancient school of mysticism.
No. A "Priest in the Order of Melchizedek" is simply a Jewish priest who is not a Levite. Period. No mystical mumbo-jumbo required, and there is no "unbroken line" from Melchizedek to Jesus, passing along the secrets of the universe.
This seems to me to be deliberate and intentional to keep people from really uncovering the truth about their existance and is in fact a way of forming a class based society
Originally posted by windword
Originally posted by adjensen
Look, bottom line -- do you agree that there was a specific group of people, who were Greeks that had developed a religion based on Plato's philosophy and other Greek thinking (regardless of where they got those ideas from,) and who were called Gnostics?
After some 500+ years of the philosophics of Socrates, Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Euripidises, Aeschylus and Sophocles, etal., I'm sure that there were many cults and factions, some gnostic and some blending gnosticism with other philosophies and mythologies as well as the eventual Christian gnostic cults.
However, what beliefs evolved withing a few hundred years after the life and teachings of Jesus doesn't have an affect on the fact that Jesus was of a cultish bend of his homeland religion as well, and was influencing his own brand of gnosticism.
For centuries before the Christian era Essene communities had dwelt on the shores of the Dead Sea. These Essenes or Essæans, in the days of Philo and Josephus, were imbued with the utmost reverence for Moses and the Law. They believed in God, the creator, in the immortality of the soul, and in a future state of retribution. Finding it impossible to carry out in ordinary life the minute regulations of the laws of purity, they had adopted the life of ascetic communism. Their chief characteristic was the doctrine of love--love to God, love of virtue, and love of mankind--and the practical way in which they carried out their precepts aroused the admiration of all.
Philo distinguishes the Essenes from the Therapeuts by saying that the former were devoted to the "practical" life, while the latter proceeded to the higher stage of the "contemplative" life, and devoted themselves to still higher problems of religion and philosophy, and it is in this direction that we must look for the best in Gnosticism.
www.sacred-texts.com...
"it. And desire that, 'I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie, since you belong to me?' The soul answered and said, 'I saw you. You did not see me nor recognise me. I served you as a garment, and you did not know me.' When it had said this, it went away rejoicing greatly.
"Again it came to the third power, which is called ignorance. It (the power) questioned the soul saying, 'Where are you going? In wickedness are you bound. But you are bound; do not judge!' And the soul said, 'Why do you judge me although I have not judged? I was bound though I have not bound. I was not recognised. But I have recognised that the All is being dissolved, both the earthly (things) and the heavenly'.
When the soul had overcome the third power, it went upwards and saw the fourth power, (which) took seven forms. The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the
fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven [powers] of wrath. They ask the soul, "Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?" The soul answered and said, "What binds me has been slain, and what surrounds me has been overcome, and my desire has been ended and ignorance has died. In a [world] I was released from a world, [and] in a type from a heavenly type, and (from) the fetter of oblivion which is transient. From this time on will I attain to the rest of the time, of the season, of the aeon, in silence."
www.pbs.org...
gnosticteachings.org...
Here the question may arise, what was the reason and object of Abram [Chesed] going down into [Malkuth] Egypt?
It was because at that time [as in this time] Egypt [Mizrahim-Malkuth] was a great center of learning, of knowledge, and the science of the Divine Mysteries, and therefore referred to in scripture as:
“Even as the garden of יהיה, like the land of Egypt, as thou come unto repentance.” – Genesis 12: 10
'The garden of יהיה [is] like the land of Egypt.' Because in it [is wisdom], as in the Garden of Eden, of which it is stated:
“And [from Daath] a river went out of [the supernal] Eden [Abba and Aima Elohim Binah] to water the garden [in Mizrahim-Malkuth-Egypt]; and from thence [Daath] it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasses the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.” – Genesis 2: 11, 12
From Pison flowed a great mystical river of divine knowledge, very precious and unobtainable elsewhere. Abraham [Chesed] having entered into the [supernal] Garden of Eden [Daath] and become an adept in the secret doctrine [of Alchemy], desirous of passing through all its grades onto the Major Mysteries in order to become 'teloios' or perfect, [through the sephirah Geburah] went down into [Havilah-Malkuth-Mizrahim] Egypt where there was gold or the hidden wisdom [of Samael].
Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
Do you deny that the Essenes were the first Christian Gnostics?
The importance of these Gnostic texts is that they educate us regarding the teachings of the early Gnostics and from these we can re-construct what could probably be considered as “the first form of Christianity”. It seems from available evidence likely that the modern forms of Judaism and Christianity are the heresies that developed from this early Gnosis, rather than the other way around. When we begin to consider this paradigm, then the find at Nag Hammadi becomes of prime importance. cryskernan.tripod.com...
Josephus wrote that the Essenes " . . . have existed from time immemorial," and " . . . for countless generations . . . "
Philo called the Essenes " . . . the most ancient of all the initiates . . ." and described their teachings as " . . . perpetuated through an immense space of ages . . ."
Some sources trace the Essenes to Enoch, a name which means founder or initiator. In the Book of Genesis, chapter five, Enoch is described as being the seventh generation from Adam. Seven in Esoteric numerology, represents completion, so Enoch as the seventh generation of humanity represented perfected humanity.
In the very early years of Christianity, there was a great debate and a great division between two opposing factions fighting for dominance. One side, represented by those labeled gnostics: Nazarenes, Essenes, Pythagoreans, and others, said Jesus was a spiritually evolved teacher. The other side, Paul's supporters, claimed that Jesus was a god -- the God, in fact. It's clear which faction won out and which faction the church would eventually label heretics.
Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was the best known and for a time most successful early Christian gnostic theologian. He founded his school in Rome. According to Tertullian, Valentinus was a candidate for bishop of Rome but started his own group when another was chosen.[1]
Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
That's absurd.
The first Christians were Jews. Essenes became the first Jewish Christian Gnostics.
The Nazarean – they were Jews by nationality – originally from Gileaditis, Bashanitis and the Transjordan… They acknowledged Moses and believed that he had received laws – not this law, however, but some other. And so, they were Jews who kept all the Jewish observances, but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it. They claim that these Books are fictions, and that none of these customs were instituted by the fathers. This was the difference between the Nazarean and the others…[52] en.wikipedia.org...
'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And I answered, 'Who art Thou, Lord?' And He said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.
Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man
Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
Your link to the Jewish Encyclopedia does nothing to support or deny my claim or your claim. It's irrelevant. What is relevant are the Dead Sea Scrolls, written by the Essenes, that provide proof of the gnostic nature of the beliefs and traditions of the Essene community.
While the DSS certainly do offer insights into the Jewish cultural milieu that gave formation to Christianity, there is probably nothing in the Scrolls collection directly reflecting events or personages known to early Christian history.
You have no argument to support your claim that Christian gnosticism didn't arise until over a hundred years after the life of Jesus. But I have tons of evidence, which you choose to ignore or mock, that proves otherwise.
The church fathers also assert that the Essenes originated the Christian religion. Modern day clerics vehemently deny this fact. Christian writers said quite clearly that Essenism and Christianity were the same religion, the former name being used at an earlier period. Eusebius, a standard ecclesiastical writer of the fourth century, asserts in his History of the Church:
"Those ancient Therapeuts (Essenes) were Christians, and their ancient writings were our gospels."
In Matthew 18:17, Jesus clearly says, "tell it to the church" before Christians claim there was a church. The Essenes, held assemblies and congregations, which are words translated as church.
LIST OF COMMONALITIES:
58. They were wont to sell their possessions and their substance, and divide among all according as any one had need so that there was not one among them in want, even as it is related in the Acts of the Apostles (Eusebius).
For whoever, of Christ's disciples, were owners of estates or houses, sold them, and brought the price thereof, and laid them at the apostles' feet, and distribution was made as every one had need. So Philo relates things exactly similar of the Essenes.
Neither was their any among them that lacked, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the price of the things that were sold (Acts 4:34).
59. They enjoined, Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
The Confucian golden rule, as taught by Christ.
60. They considered (all) men and women to be equal.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)
61. They enjoined the loving of enemies (Philo).
Love your enemies. (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:27)
www.thenazareneway.com...
1. Josephus Flavius, a famous first century historian, records that "there were three (Jewish) sects, the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes." The Bible makes no mention of the Essenes, but agrees there were indeed three main sects in that time... the Pharisees, Sadducees and Christians.
2. In the writings of Josephus, he gives a lengthy description of the Essenes and their customs. For each one, there is scripture in the Bible that records followers of the early Christian church observing the exact same customs. Yet Josephus also wrote that the Essenes were a very unique sect... that there were no others like them!
3. Today, many believe the Essenes were simply a small group who lived in the Dead Sea area, and kept to themselves. However the first century historian Josephus wrote that the Essenes "...do not live in any particular town, but in EVERY town the Order has its respective 'house'. ...In this 'house' the members take their abode when they arrive on their travels, and they are supplied with all they want." It is well documented that the Christians spread far and wide... and the Bible contains many passages that describe the disciples traveling from town to town and resting at the 'house' of a member from the 'church'.