Alternate View on Christianity

reply to post by WhoKnows100


The Bible also says that there will be a great outpouring of the spirit.

The Catholic church doesn't own the spirituality that the "Holy Spirit" endows us with, and that spirit can't be found between the pages of the Bible or inside the walls of any church.

reply to post by adjensen


Pythagoras and Plato didn't invent paths to knowledge, nor the knowledge they found. They followed paths that were laid out for seekers, by previous masters of previous mysteries schools. They didn't invent the ideals behind gnosis, they just gave it a name, and those within their following adopted the name.

Jesus didn't invent Christianity or preach anything new, he preached something old, very old. While I believe that Jesus and many of his followers were well versed in Pythagorean and Platonic philosophies, Jesus was also knowledgeable of even more ancient wisdom, passed down not from Levitical doctrine, but of the "Order of Melchizedek, and ancient school of mysticism.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Pythagoras and Plato didn't invent paths to knowledge, nor the knowledge they found. They followed paths that were laid out for seekers, by previous masters of previous mysteries schools. They didn't invent the ideals behind gnosis, they just gave it a name, and those within their following adopted the name.

Look, bottom line -- do you agree that there was a specific group of people, who were Greeks that had developed a religion based on Plato's philosophy and other Greek thinking (regardless of where they got those ideas from,) and who were called Gnostics?

Jesus was also knowledgeable of even more ancient wisdom, passed down not from Levitical doctrine, but of the "Order of Melchizedek, and ancient school of mysticism.

No. A "Priest in the Order of Melchizedek" is simply a Jewish priest who is not a Levite. Period. No mystical mumbo-jumbo required, and there is no "unbroken line" from Melchizedek to Jesus, passing along the secrets of the universe.

Originally posted by windword

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1

This not anti gnostic, but actually GNOSTIC!

No, it isn't -- the Gnostics did not equate Jesus with the Pleroma, they thought that he was an Aeon who had emanated from it.

As I said, John is anti-Ebionite, which was a First Century heresy that says that Jesus was just a guy. He was the Messiah, but he was just some guy. Background information here. That's one of the reasons that the Synoptic Gospels are subtle in their declaration of who Jesus was, while John pretty much clubs you over the head with it -- it was written to address this Jewish Christian group that said he wasn't God.

reply to post by Alexei

I have questioned and was not found an enemy of God. I found Man twisting and corrupting the meanings of scriptures to suit their needs. I found that if you live by the words of Jesus and his examples from The Bible, you will find your life changing and miracles happening in your life. This works because Jesus's words are " spirit and they are life"

The passages you quoted and mentioned in the Bible yes, but not as watered down versions. Almost off of them have multiple bible versions in the different Gospel's that taken together give you a broad picture of what Jesus was trying to say. These were written on purpose in this manner so that those who had the keys could find the knowledge. It's an old Hebrew trick or code in writing that was known to the writers of the New Testament.

Circumcision in the New Testament speaks of Circumcision of the heart. It's metaphor of repentance.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Pythagoras and Plato didn't invent paths to knowledge, nor the knowledge they found. They followed paths that were laid out for seekers, by previous masters of previous mysteries schools. They didn't invent the ideals behind gnosis, they just gave it a name, and those within their following adopted the name.

Look, bottom line -- do you agree that there was a specific group of people, who were Greeks that had developed a religion based on Plato's philosophy and other Greek thinking (regardless of where they got those ideas from,) and who were called Gnostics?

After some 500+ years of the philosophics of Socrates, Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Euripidises, Aeschylus and Sophocles, etal., I'm sure that there were many cults and factions, some gnostic and some blending gnosticism with other philosophies and mythologies as well as the eventual Christian gnostic cults.

However, what beliefs evolved withing a few hundred years after the life and teachings of Jesus doesn't have an affect on the fact that Jesus was of a cultish bend of his homeland religion as well, and was influencing his own brand of gnosticism.

Jesus was also knowledgeable of even more ancient wisdom, passed down not from Levitical doctrine, but of the "Order of Melchizedek, and ancient school of mysticism.

No. A "Priest in the Order of Melchizedek" is simply a Jewish priest who is not a Levite. Period. No mystical mumbo-jumbo required, and there is no "unbroken line" from Melchizedek to Jesus, passing along the secrets of the universe.

There are Tibetan monks who swear that they have hidden and secret ancient manuscripts and have guarded the tradition and words of the Brahman since their first teachings. It isn't inconceivable that Jesus was attuned to and able to access an unbroken line of truth and teach that truth during his ministry.

As for as Jesus being otherworldly divine, by birth rite, I tend not to believe, but I remain open minded. If we are to believe the biblical stories of angels and God's physical intervention, the mingling of angels with humans and the creation of the nephilim, the story of Noah and Gilgamesh; And then add to that the story of Jesus in the desert, dealing with Satan and the angel that ministered to him, then yeah, then we have some other things to consider, including "mumbo jumbo."

The gnostic philosophies dealt with these types of cross dimensional mysteries and otherworldly interventions. If it is true that Jesus dealt with other dimensional beings, like demons and angels and even Satan himself, then it would be reasonable to also accept Jesus teachings of the basics of gnosis, knowledge, wisdom and light.

This seems to me to be deliberate and intentional to keep people from really uncovering the truth about their existance and is in fact a way of forming a class based society

This is definitely the purpose of religion today, even if it wasn't created that way.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by adjensen
Look, bottom line -- do you agree that there was a specific group of people, who were Greeks that had developed a religion based on Plato's philosophy and other Greek thinking (regardless of where they got those ideas from,) and who were called Gnostics?

After some 500+ years of the philosophics of Socrates, Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Euripidises, Aeschylus and Sophocles, etal., I'm sure that there were many cults and factions, some gnostic and some blending gnosticism with other philosophies and mythologies as well as the eventual Christian gnostic cults.

However, what beliefs evolved withing a few hundred years after the life and teachings of Jesus doesn't have an affect on the fact that Jesus was of a cultish bend of his homeland religion as well, and was influencing his own brand of gnosticism.

That isn't what I asked you. I asked you a straight forward question that can be answered with a Yes or No.

Do you agree that there was a specific group of people, who were Greeks that had developed a religion based on Plato's philosophy and other Greek thinking (regardless of where they got those ideas from,) and who were called Gnostics?

What say you? Yes or no?

reply to post by adjensen


Before there were Christian Gnostics there were the Essenes. After the event of the life and teachings of Jesus, the Essenes incorporated and further explained and expanded his teachings through their writings, not unlike the self appointed apostle Paul.

The Essenes were the first "Gnostic Christians, and were responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were persecuted into hiding, and eventually the Catholic hammer came down on them, and all gnostic cults, declaring them heretics and bllasphemous Jews. I don't believe that there were Greek Essenes, however, there certainly were Greek Gnostic Christians.

Compared to the rest of you i'm a simple layman,out of my depth.Also not a believer perhaps my opinion won't be considered worth the words used to express it but.

I cant help being intrigued about Jesus and the bhuddist conection.They certainly have a belief in a figure,they call Issa who returned out of the West,wounded,hurt physically and spiritually around the time or just after the crucifiction took place.

Yes its easy to say the connection is retro fitting but isnt it a fascinating possibility.

That Jesus travelled east,took some influence and learning in the Himalayas before going back to Israel and bursting onto the religious scene,seemingly the complete article.

Seems equally possible he didnt die on the cross but came very close making everyone believe that he died.

For instance there was no true reliable indicator of death 200 years ago which was why the stethascope was originally invented.

What of Hiati and making Zombies by poisoning victims who appear dead until they awake in their coffins a day or so later.

Even doctors can be fooled into believing death has occured to be proven wrong.

To imagine Jesus was believed dead when he was taken off the cross isnt so far fetched.When he recoverd but still injured badly days later his followers would believe him devine.

Certainly they could have easily got him out the way and on the road eastward easily enough stating he'd returned to heaven.

Afterall whats is it that matters the man or the message !!!

oh well,an alternative perspective though perhaps one to be scoffed at by those who have seriously studied it.

reply to post by windword


So you lack the ability to answer a simple yes or no question. No one cares about your crackpot theories about historical peoples when you can't even manage to comprehend that the Gnostics were not "all mystics through all ages."

I will then reiterate that your statement that Abraham was one of the first Gnostics is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Barring your presentation of evidence of Abraham's time machine, I think few would disagree with my conclusion.

reply to post by adjensen


Do you deny that the Essenes were the first Christian Gnostics?

For centuries before the Christian era Essene communities had dwelt on the shores of the Dead Sea. These Essenes or Essæans, in the days of Philo and Josephus, were imbued with the utmost reverence for Moses and the Law. They believed in God, the creator, in the immortality of the soul, and in a future state of retribution. Finding it impossible to carry out in ordinary life the minute regulations of the laws of purity, they had adopted the life of ascetic communism. Their chief characteristic was the doctrine of love--love to God, love of virtue, and love of mankind--and the practical way in which they carried out their precepts aroused the admiration of all.

Philo distinguishes the Essenes from the Therapeuts by saying that the former were devoted to the "practical" life, while the latter proceeded to the higher stage of the "contemplative" life, and devoted themselves to still higher problems of religion and philosophy, and it is in this direction that we must look for the best in Gnosticism.
www.sacred-texts.com...

The Essenes were gnostics before they were Christians. The ideals of gnosis didn't just spring up from nowhere. Gnosticism is the study of enlightenment through the higher more spiritual qualities of the journey of the soul. Although Levitical law provided for physical protection from sinning against the laws of the spirit, it didn't address the lessons the soul must learn.

Here's an excerpt of the Gnostic text of The Gosple of Mary, addressing the journey of the soul. This was written by Jewish Essene Christian Gnostics. Not Greeks.

"it. And desire that, 'I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie, since you belong to me?' The soul answered and said, 'I saw you. You did not see me nor recognise me. I served you as a garment, and you did not know me.' When it had said this, it went away rejoicing greatly.

"Again it came to the third power, which is called ignorance. It (the power) questioned the soul saying, 'Where are you going? In wickedness are you bound. But you are bound; do not judge!' And the soul said, 'Why do you judge me although I have not judged? I was bound though I have not bound. I was not recognised. But I have recognised that the All is being dissolved, both the earthly (things) and the heavenly'.

When the soul had overcome the third power, it went upwards and saw the fourth power, (which) took seven forms. The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the

fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven [powers] of wrath. They ask the soul, "Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?" The soul answered and said, "What binds me has been slain, and what surrounds me has been overcome, and my desire has been ended and ignorance has died. In a [world] I was released from a world, [and] in a type from a heavenly type, and (from) the fetter of oblivion which is transient. From this time on will I attain to the rest of the time, of the season, of the aeon, in silence."
www.pbs.org...

Of course the Catholic Church outlawed even talking to these Gnostics, honoring their martyred dead, seeking the ministry of angels, studying the patterns and movements of the planets and seasons, mathematics and the workings of the physical body, all things associated with gnosticism.

Continued....

reply to post by windword


Of course, Abraham as father of the religions of the Hebrews, Christians and Muslims was a gnostic archetype. To believe otherwise is just myopic.

Here the question may arise, what was the reason and object of Abram [Chesed] going down into [Malkuth] Egypt?

It was because at that time [as in this time] Egypt [Mizrahim-Malkuth] was a great center of learning, of knowledge, and the science of the Divine Mysteries, and therefore referred to in scripture as:

“Even as the garden of יהיה, like the land of Egypt, as thou come unto repentance.” – Genesis 12: 10

'The garden of יהיה [is] like the land of Egypt.' Because in it [is wisdom], as in the Garden of Eden, of which it is stated:

“And [from Daath] a river went out of [the supernal] Eden [Abba and Aima Elohim Binah] to water the garden [in Mizrahim-Malkuth-Egypt]; and from thence [Daath] it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasses the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.” – Genesis 2: 11, 12

From Pison flowed a great mystical river of divine knowledge, very precious and unobtainable elsewhere. Abraham [Chesed] having entered into the [supernal] Garden of Eden [Daath] and become an adept in the secret doctrine [of Alchemy], desirous of passing through all its grades onto the Major Mysteries in order to become 'teloios' or perfect, [through the sephirah Geburah] went down into [Havilah-Malkuth-Mizrahim] Egypt where there was gold or the hidden wisdom [of Samael].

gnosticteachings.org...

Abraham went to Egypt to seek the hidden wisdom of gnosis.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Do you deny that the Essenes were the first Christian Gnostics?

Of course I do.

Essenes were Jews, not Christians, and the first Christian Gnostic was Valentinus, who was not a Jew. There is not a shred of evidence that the Essenes were the first Christian Gnostics. There is little evidence that they eventually turned Gnostic or Christian, either, for that matter. ESSENES - Jewish Encyclopedia

See how concisely I answer your questions?

reply to post by adjensen


That's absurd.

The first Christians were Jews. Essenes became the first Jewish Christian Gnostics.

The importance of these Gnostic texts is that they educate us regarding the teachings of the early Gnostics and from these we can re-construct what could probably be considered as “the first form of Christianity”. It seems from available evidence likely that the modern forms of Judaism and Christianity are the heresies that developed from this early Gnosis, rather than the other way around. When we begin to consider this paradigm, then the find at Nag Hammadi becomes of prime importance. cryskernan.tripod.com...

The Essenes were gnostic Jews and have existed since antiquity.

Josephus wrote that the Essenes " . . . have existed from time immemorial," and " . . . for countless generations . . . "

Philo called the Essenes " . . . the most ancient of all the initiates . . ." and described their teachings as " . . . perpetuated through an immense space of ages . . ."

Some sources trace the Essenes to Enoch, a name which means founder or initiator. In the Book of Genesis, chapter five, Enoch is described as being the seventh generation from Adam. Seven in Esoteric numerology, represents completion, so Enoch as the seventh generation of humanity represented perfected humanity.

In the very early years of Christianity, there was a great debate and a great division between two opposing factions fighting for dominance. One side, represented by those labeled gnostics: Nazarenes, Essenes, Pythagoreans, and others, said Jesus was a spiritually evolved teacher. The other side, Paul's supporters, claimed that Jesus was a god -- the God, in fact. It's clear which faction won out and which faction the church would eventually label heretics.

www.thenazareneway.com...

There were plenty of gnostic Christians around in the centuries after the advent of Jesus, but the Essenes were the first ones.

Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was the best known and for a time most successful early Christian gnostic theologian. He founded his school in Rome. According to Tertullian, Valentinus was a candidate for bishop of Rome but started his own group when another was chosen.[1]

As I said before, I'm sure there were numerous Christian gnostic cults around. But your guy wasn't the first. He was just the loudest of his time.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

That's absurd.

The first Christians were Jews. Essenes became the first Jewish Christian Gnostics.

No, they didn't. You're citing some random guy with a "tripod.com" website over the Jewish Encyclopedia?

Look over here, windword: How Hitler Discovered America.

Wake up. Just because some nut says something on the Internet doesn't mean that history is wrong.

You want to believe nonsense, feel free, but stop pretending that it's anything other than a fringe claim, and in the case of Abraham being a Gnostic, ridiculously impossible.

reply to post by adjensen


Your link to the Jewish Encyclopedia does nothing to support or deny my claim or your claim. It's irrelevant. What is relevant are the Dead Sea Scrolls, written by the Essenes, that provide proof of the gnostic nature of the beliefs and traditions of the Essene community.

You have no argument to support your claim that Christian gnosticism didn't arise until over a hundred years after the life of Jesus. But I have tons of evidence, which you choose to ignore or mock, that proves otherwise.

Egypt was the center for higher learning of wisdom and light, gnosis. Pythagoras and Plato studied there, Jesus studied there and finally, but first and foremost, Abraham studied there.

Here is a biblical Christian scholar who claims that the Dead Sea Scroll prove the Essenes recongnized Jesus as the messiah.



Here's an article from a Christian ministries website that claims that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove the the Essenes were the first Christians.

www.grantjeffrey.com...

Jesus was a Nazarean. Nazarean were a sect of the Essenes that married. They rejected much of Jewish so called law. Essenes believed in the immortality of the soul and it's pre-existence. They did NOT believe in the resurrection of the physical body. These beliefs align with Pythagorean Gnoticismn.

The Nazarean – they were Jews by nationality – originally from Gileaditis, Bashanitis and the Transjordan… They acknowledged Moses and believed that he had received laws – not this law, however, but some other. And so, they were Jews who kept all the Jewish observances, but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it. They claim that these Books are fictions, and that none of these customs were instituted by the fathers. This was the difference between the Nazarean and the others…[52] en.wikipedia.org...

'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And I answered, 'Who art Thou, Lord?' And He said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.

Even this knowledge, of Jesus having been a Nazarene, puts into question whether or not Jesus ate fish, as it is written that he did. It seems that Jesus didn't place dietary limits on himself or on his followers.

Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Your link to the Jewish Encyclopedia does nothing to support or deny my claim or your claim. It's irrelevant. What is relevant are the Dead Sea Scrolls, written by the Essenes, that provide proof of the gnostic nature of the beliefs and traditions of the Essene community.

I believe that you are confusing the Dead Sea Scrolls with the Nag Hammadi Library. I would suggest that you carefully read this article on the gnosis.org website: The Dead Sea Scrolls at the Gnostic Society Library. Pay particular attention to passages such as this:

While the DSS certainly do offer insights into the Jewish cultural milieu that gave formation to Christianity, there is probably nothing in the Scrolls collection directly reflecting events or personages known to early Christian history.

The Essenes were Jewish, not Christian, and there is no evidence and absolutely no reason to believe that they became Gnostic Christians.

You have no argument to support your claim that Christian gnosticism didn't arise until over a hundred years after the life of Jesus. But I have tons of evidence, which you choose to ignore or mock, that proves otherwise.

All you've posted so far is dubious claims from websites like "Tripod.com" and absolute fabrications, like "Abraham was a Gnostic" or "The Dead Sea Scrolls are Gnostic texts." That is not "tons of evidence", that is zero evidence. I, on the other hand, can point to the actual Gnostic texts, such as the Gospel of Truth, and historical documents from persons such as Tertullian, to demonstrate the accuracy of my claims.

reply to post by adjensen


You are correct, in that I was thinking that the Nag Hammadi texts were part of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

However, there are many, many scholars who claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls DO prove that the Essenes were the originators of Christianity, that Jesus' teaching mirrored the values, traditions and beliefs of the Essenes. Because of this, many believe that Jesus studied with the Essenes and aligned his ministry to their gospels. They supported and approved of Jesus, his ministry and his teachings. The Essenes were the "church" that Jesus referred to, before there was a church.

The church fathers also assert that the Essenes originated the Christian religion. Modern day clerics vehemently deny this fact. Christian writers said quite clearly that Essenism and Christianity were the same religion, the former name being used at an earlier period. Eusebius, a standard ecclesiastical writer of the fourth century, asserts in his History of the Church:

"Those ancient Therapeuts (Essenes) were Christians, and their ancient writings were our gospels."
In Matthew 18:17, Jesus clearly says, "tell it to the church" before Christians claim there was a church. The Essenes, held assemblies and congregations, which are words translated as church.

LIST OF COMMONALITIES:

58. They were wont to sell their possessions and their substance, and divide among all according as any one had need so that there was not one among them in want, even as it is related in the Acts of the Apostles (Eusebius).
For whoever, of Christ's disciples, were owners of estates or houses, sold them, and brought the price thereof, and laid them at the apostles' feet, and distribution was made as every one had need. So Philo relates things exactly similar of the Essenes.
Neither was their any among them that lacked, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the price of the things that were sold (Acts 4:34).

59. They enjoined, Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
The Confucian golden rule, as taught by Christ.

60. They considered (all) men and women to be equal.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)

61. They enjoined the loving of enemies (Philo).
Love your enemies. (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:27)
www.thenazareneway.com...

More arguments that the Essenes were the first Christians and that the Essene community was the first church.

1. Josephus Flavius, a famous first century historian, records that "there were three (Jewish) sects, the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes." The Bible makes no mention of the Essenes, but agrees there were indeed three main sects in that time... the Pharisees, Sadducees and Christians.

2. In the writings of Josephus, he gives a lengthy description of the Essenes and their customs. For each one, there is scripture in the Bible that records followers of the early Christian church observing the exact same customs. Yet Josephus also wrote that the Essenes were a very unique sect... that there were no others like them!

3. Today, many believe the Essenes were simply a small group who lived in the Dead Sea area, and kept to themselves. However the first century historian Josephus wrote that the Essenes "...do not live in any particular town, but in EVERY town the Order has its respective 'house'. ...In this 'house' the members take their abode when they arrive on their travels, and they are supplied with all they want." It is well documented that the Christians spread far and wide... and the Bible contains many passages that describe the disciples traveling from town to town and resting at the 'house' of a member from the 'church'.

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