Hebrews 5:7-10... powerful verses that challenge many Christian doctrines, page 4

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reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 07:27 PM by EnigmaticDill

Its easy to understand the thought that just comes to my mind is like when Satan came to him and he was tempted,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

That seems to show that there was some kind of obidience going on there and was still subject to temptation.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

That shows a fruit of that obidence through experience.

Its because he was all man and all God. Thats why its a fufillment there was obviously something to be done there.

Obviously if your saved thats how you'll become obidient to the Lord, being saved requires obidience to the faith. and all things come with it.

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

edit on 9-10-2012 by EnigmaticDill because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 08:12 PM by adjensen

reply to post by windword

Yes, those are all signs... of his physical resurrection. I find it hard to believe that you weren't fully aware of that, so, once again, please present your "good evidence."

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. (John 19:31-33 NIV)

It was customary to break the legs of those crucified in order to cause their deaths quickly. They obviously didn't need to do that for Jesus, who was already dead (one assumes that soldiers would be careful enough to know the difference between someone who was dead, and someone who was "faking".)

If you'd like, I can find you a link to a pretty horrific medical article that details out, in excruciating detail, the physical effects of Roman scourging and crucifixion. It ain't pretty, take my word for it, but it makes it clear that old Nicodemus didn't take Jesus down, revive and heal him in an hour of myrrh giving (as some nitwit tried to claim recently.)

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 08:49 PM by twoandthree

If you lend ear to the Talmud, the recordings of the Jewish Tradition as events occurred and as recorded by pious rabbi historians, it is interesting to see the (rather close to it) "day of" interpretations of who they thought Jesus was: a Jewish high priest steeped in the Nazarene traditions and with strong political allegiances.

Of course, just because that's who they thought He was doesn't mean that's who He was/is. Just an interesting note of socio-cultural history captured in time. The intrigue is certainly that this alternate scenario can, with great study, be more credible than the popular version.

And yet, even with the historical accounts (written by the hands of mere mortals) in question, the personal relationship with Christ Jesus stands true. The Spirit brings Truth; however, the sacred texts of the Bible, which have been translated into other languages, other cultures, and other times can never match the real meanings without ego-centric bias (inherent in every mortal man) and without the glasses of that very specific point in time and within the context of everything within that specific time.

If you ask me, the Teachings of Jesus Himself were/are real Truth... and to the red letter word are worth following and dying to defend. However, the Bible and the first anti-Christ who was "Saint" Paul are rife with that which makes men men: error. The Jewish historians may have recorded some bits of truth in their account.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 08:57 PM by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by windword

Why is it so hard to believe that if Jesus prayed for something it happened? He prayed to God to be saved from the ordeal of death, and he was saved. He was crucified but he didn't die on the cross after all!

The reason they cant believe that Jesus was saved from death is because it compromises their entire belief system.... the whole thing about Jesus sin sacrifice, original sin, trinity, salvation and so on.

Which is why, the christians are doing everything they can to avoid coming to that conclusion. So far I have been accused of taking the verse out of context, having malicious intent, not understanding the bible etc. They seem unable to address Hebrews 5:7-10 without giving me a theology lesson from their point of view.. or redefining terms like "death".

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 09:19 PM by SimonPeter

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Have you figured out how Jesus was scourged to the point that his bowls started to come out by a whip of sharp objects that no doubt had rotting flesh on it from the last poor guy they whipped and did not die of infection . Yes they rubbed salt into the wounds but not to preserve life but to induce more pain .The resulting infections even if the bowl was not punctured would likely kill him . Then rusty nails were driven into him cutting blood veins and causing deep puncture wounds that would have no doubt caused Tetanus and would likely have been deadly .But the spear up under the ribs into the Heart and the blood and water coming out of the wound is for sure death . The Romans were masters in the art of killing people . They knew how to kill with out fail . Jesus literally died on the cross . He didn't live and marry Marry Magdalene and live to be 54 as the lie told . The Jews that wanted him dead made sure that he died . Ironically ,the Jews didn't have him put to death instead Jesus laid down his life for those that love him .

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 10:10 PM by LeSigh

reply to post by windword

Show you in the scriptures where Christ descended into Hades?

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise’.” -Luke 23:43

^ You mean the part of Hades/Sheol/the Grave known as Paradise (aka Abraham's bosom)? The other part of Hades being Torments? Not to be confused with Gehenna/the lake of fire (which isn't around yet). Also not to be confused with Tartarus where the fallen angels are bound until the final judgment. Torments and Tartarus are also synonymous with hell- which will be cast into the lake of fire at the final judgment.

"(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)"- Ephesians 4:9-10

"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."- Revelation 1:18

"So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."- Luke 16:22-23

"...'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’"- Luke 16-26

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."- Matthew 12:40

"For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption."- Psalm 16:10

"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[c] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’[d]
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[e] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses."- Acts 2:23-32

After the resurrection- Paradise was relocated from Hades/Sheol into Heaven. We know this- as Christ resurrected the righteous dead of Paradise and they ascended into Heaven with Him where they will wait until the final judgment. We refer to this event as 'the harrowing of hell'.

"...and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."- Matthew 27:52-53

ETA: Sola Scriptura non-believers fascinate me to no end, btw! And- some don't even qualify as that! They twist to reject anything that isn't red-letter text. What a hoot. The scriptures are only part of Holy Tradition. It's like using a newspaper with lots of sections cut out of it if you have no context for it (Christ's Church).

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.- Acts 8:30-31

edit on 9-10-2012 by LeSigh because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 10:37 PM by realrelics

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

hate to break the news but a christian will find a way to say its true and the bible means something else by it....christians are typically the biggest hypocritical closed minded people in the world. not all are but most all. ex: you say god is a sinner theyll say hes perfect. you question why an all loving god would doom a city they say for disobedience which proves he isnt all loving and commends murder.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 11:18 PM by jaxnmarko

reply to post by OkieDokie

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

a) Jesus had to pray to the "One who could save him from death"... showing that only God could have saved him from death. Jesus cannot be God.

b) Jesus was seeking a way out. Recall his prayer before his capture.... "Let this cup pass from me". He did not willingly surrender to the Jews to make his so called "sacrifice".

c) Jesus was heard, meaning he was saved from death. Which basically counters the claim about Jesus being dead for 3 days for three days. It cant be said that a man was saved from death AND was dead for 3 days.

2. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

a) Jesus had to learn obedience.
Does someone who is "fully man and fully God" need to learn obedience?

b) The promise of eternal salvation is for all who obey him...
OBEY, not just believe he died on the cross for their sins. I also don't recall Jesus teaching people that they need to believe that he died for their sins to be saved. Not even AFTER his resurrection when his followers saw him. Why is that?

c) Jesus was designated by God to be a high priest in Melchizedeks order.
Jesus was NOT God but instead was appointed by God.

edit on 8-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

I think there IS a need for theology lessons here.

1. There is a need for you to uinderstand the Trinity. 3 in 1. Christ was a part of the Godhead, equal with God the Father, and The Holy Spirit. Jesus knew he was to be the sacrifice for sin from the foundations of the world. No man could have fullfilled the requirements of being spotless, thus God had to take on the flesh and remian blameless. Jesus prayed to God the Father because his flesh was becoming weak from the weight of the full wrath of God being laid on it. Wrath that should have been directed at you and I. When it says the Jesus was "heard", it does not mean that His prayer was answered the way that you have believed, that he did not die on that cross. It means that God the Father carried Him trough the agony of death and raised Him on the third day just as it is written and as was witnessed by over 500 people in the region at the time. He was delievered from death through the resurrection.

2. Jesus learned obedience by submitting to the will of the Father while He was in the flesh. It was required of Him to overcome the flesh in order to be blamelss and defeat sin on the cross. On part b of this one, I have to agree with you. We are told in Scripture that we are to pick up our cross daily and follow Him. Many professing Christians fail in this miserably. It is because of this that I believe that there are many unsaved and deceived people who sit in the pews every sunday and are in reality destined for hell. I have no way of knowing who, only God knows their hearts, but we are told that on the day of Judgement that many will say (Me paraphrasing) "Haven't we done all these things in your name?" and God will say "Depart from me you workers on iniquity, I never knew you". On C, I don't know enough to say it very plainly, maybe someone can help me out on this one. In the Bible, there are many "Types" of Christ. Adam and David are also types of Christ and display some of the characteristics of the Savior that was to come.

Very good questions!

~OkieDokie

I'm confused..From what was said, it appears as though Jesus could have failed. He pleaded and prayed to be saved, he learned obedience and was made perfect.... it sounds as if he was only saved by his actions.... which means..... he could have failed himself if he is Jesus AND God AND the Holy Spirit? The Holy Trinity? What would have happened if this portion of God, in the form of Jesus, had failed? If his prayers had not been Heard? I don't see the logic in this. To me, this means Jesus could not be God, but absorbed into the GOD fold being? If he was God in Jesus' form, why did he need to pray to himself and be heard in order to be saved? In this regard, I cannot see how the Holy Trinity is All One.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 11:32 PM by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by SimonPeter

If death at the hands of the Romans was really that gory, then I want to believe Jesus was rescued by God.

Would you rather have Jesus tortured and put to death? Or would you rather have him saved by God?

Why is it that Christians desperately hope that Jesus died that death on the cross.... and respond to any suggestion that Jesus was actually saved with so much bitterness? It appears Christians need Jesus to have died on the cross, so they could believe he died for their sins and get a free ticket to heaven. Sounds very selfish.

I believe God protects those who seek His protection. And as that verse says....
"he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."

Why is it so hard for you to accept that Jesus was saved?

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 11:39 PM by Sablicious

"Even the Devil can cite scripture." -Willy Shake

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 12:18 AM by Theophorus

reply to post by windword

Obviously you have not a clue what the words Nature and Person meant 2000 years ago, Never mind what they mean today! Without knowing this first, how could you ever understand anything the bible ( NT) reads? You have a long way as to understanding. Reasoning is Key to reading the scriptures.God gave you this faculty, use it!

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 12:24 AM by ~widowmaker~

pshh that is nothing , i got something that contradicts both religions and all passages, its called the passage of common sense, which totally trumps those easily.

why do you people even bother, both books were re-written to fit passing times, they are garbage now, man has touched them, therefor they are tarnished for ever.

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 01:14 AM by SimonPeter

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You have missed the point of the matter . God the Father makes the rules . Christians are just followers of Christ's teachings and are nothing of themselves . Christians do not feel worthy of the sacrifice of Christ for their sins but instead are thankful for his gift of His blood sacrifice for us .This thing is for sure . It is appointed to every man to die the first death . Every man who has ever walked in the flesh .
Genesis chapter 22 tells of God asking Abraham to offer his only son for a sacrifice whom God had provided him through Abraham's 90 year old wife who had ceased to have a women's natural cycles . There would be no more children . God did stop the sacrifice of Isaac but the fact is that God did offer for the remission of sin Jesus his only begotten Son .God was not just playing with Abraham . God knew that Abraham in his heart was actually going to kill Issac for him and found him worthy and in him us to be worth while to offer Jesus . That is why Jesus had to born into the flesh . The blood of Jesus had to be spilled and those who are saved are saved by the blood spilled from the Lamb of God . Revelations 7 verse 9 are the saved before the throne . Revelations 7 verse 14 the robes of those people have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb . The blood of Jesus had to be shed !

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 01:29 AM by TarzanBeta

Originally posted by buster2010

Jesus was designated by God to be a high priest in Melchizedeks order. Jesus was NOT God but instead was appointed by God.

If this is true then why do the Jews reject his teachings? Is it commonplace for Jews to reject their priests?

There are a few things I wanted to point out before I respond directly to the OP.

....

You have a picture of Sheldon and a quote from him; and yet you have absolutely no vision or knowledge whatsoever.

Read the entire Old Testament and tell me how many different sets of hands you would need to count all the times that the Jews disobeyed, attacked, and even murdered their own priests and prophets.

I can already tell you that you would need quite a few people -- and if you mean to refer simply to the Torah alone, and not the rest of the prophets and their scriptures in the Old Testament... then I simply refer you to the bold and arrogant attitude of the children of Israel towards Moses as God led him to lead them away from captivity and into the land He claimed for them. All of THAT is recorded in the Torah.. for those very, very legalistic Jews out there.

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 01:43 AM by jmdewey60

reply to post by SimonPeter

Revelations 7 verse 14 the robes of those people have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb . The blood of Jesus had to be shed !

Did you by chance graduate high school?
Just wondering, since I have to guess you did not, having failed English, which would be required to have passed in order to get a diploma.
You apparently never learned the fine points of language, including the literary use of the metaphor.
Do you really think that the saints are that because they literally washed their robes in blood?
And do you really think that literal blood could make robes white?
I am of the opinion that people such as yourself should kindly do the world a favor by ceasing to grace us with your expounding on the scriptures when you clearly are not competent to do so, either for lack of education or some organic defect in your thinking process.

I would also like to say that Revelation never clearly defines the identity of the Lamb character, or makes in clear that every use of the word lamb is meant to mean the same thing every time.
A more responsible commentary on Revelation will point that out, though I do realize that many do make that assumption (that every instance of the word Lamb has to mean, Jesus), which is most likely just based on a habit of preachers going with that interpretation in sermons, where a lot of writers don't think to question a common usage.
I would feel safe enough in my opinion that it is in fact not about Jesus in most uses of the word Lamb in Revelation. It could just as very well be referring to The Lamb as those who are the slain saints of all time, those martyred for Jesus, and who will stand as the accusers of their murderers in judgment. The seven eyes of the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of the Ancient of Days would indicate that it is recording the actions of those who will later be called to stand in judgment for their crimes.
Metaphorically, those who went through tribulation and were killed for their testimony of Jesus, would be baptized in the baptism of Christ, meaning they did as commanded by Jesus to take up their cross, and to share the experience Jesus had, to be covered in his own blood. So the "washing" was standing up in the hour of persecution with the resolve of Christ to see the thing through and to be faithful to the name of Jesus to the point of death.
Jesus did die, and it was a necessary thing in the plan of salvation for men, but it was not done such as to provide a payment of sin. The New Testament does not teach that. Instead of the blood of Jesus satisfying the demands of the old covenant, it inaugurated the new covenant with the seal of his blood. God is quite able to forgive past sins by simply forgetting them, and there is not some unknown entity out there somewhere who is forcing God to pay for it with blood.

edit on 10-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 01:53 AM by TarzanBeta

reply to post by windword

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine: and he was [is] the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, "Blessed be Abram to the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth, And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand". And he gave him tithe from all.
—Genesis 14:18-20

Windword, Jesus Christ is made High Priest after the order of Melchizedek because of THIS action - the only recorded action of Melchizedek in the entire Bible. Look at what he did for Abraham (who is the father of Isaac, the father of Israel, the spiritual nation into which we true believers in God, believers in Jesus Christ, are grafted).

After Abraham overcame, Melchizedek went out and met Abraham with BREAD AND WINE (the flesh of Jesus Christ, the blood of Jesus Christ, spiritually). And also he blessed Abraham and God and stated that God had delivered the enemies in his hand. And then HE GAVE THEM TITHE FROM ALL. Note that.

Jesus Christ will came out to meet us. He gave us his flesh and his blood. He blessed us and God. And he gives us tithe because He makes us priests with Him.

This is the order after which Jesus Christ became our High Priest. What does the High Priest do? He prophesies, blesses, and makes atonement for our sins.

Jesus Christ did all of these things, to the full. Psalms 110:4 is the Old Testament prophecy concerning Jesus Christ and His anointing as our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 02:06 AM by SimonPeter

reply to post by jmdewey60

I was quoting from the Bible . Oh , but you have your own bible . I suppose you wrote it the way you want it written .
If the King James Bible offends you then it says volumes about you and your arrogance . You shouldn't pretend to be a Christian if the blood of Christ offends you . Take your real place with the non-believers .
I know your probably majored in English grammar and write books . But how can anybody write books who can't comprehend the one book that matters ? Your comprehension of the bible and the message given is rather unconventional , down right back ass-ward about somethings . You have the grammar down but the logic seems to be missing .
Have another one on the rocks for me !

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 02:06 AM by TarzanBeta

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

And OP, I reply to you with the full chapter of Hebrews 5.

Be warned, understanding of all of the Word is required to understand any part of the Word. As it is written:

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. (Isaiah 28:10)

That being said, here is the full of Hebrews 5:

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

And I would like to point out your ultimate flaw here - in that you stopped straightaway short of verse 11 in your attempt to encourage yourself by means of your limited understanding of verses 7-10. Because in verse 11, you read that there are MANY things to say of Jesus Christ, and they are hard to be told because YOU ARE DULL OF HEARING.

But allow me to entertain you that your mouth should be shut and your fingers frozen. By the Lord Jesus Christ you will not have your way here - because you seek to spread the lies of your father.

You have said that you would rather hope that Jesus was saved from the cross and not allowed to die upon it. However, Jesus Christ HIMSELF told the disciples all things that must happen to Him and Simon Peter, when he attempted to tell Jesus that he did not have to suffer such things, was immediately rebuked because he had allowed Satan to work through him; he allowed his sensuality to attempt to connect to the sensuality of the flesh of Jesus to make him believe that he was caring for him, that he wished not that these things be done unto him. And Jesus turned and rebuked, saying, "Get thee behind me Satan!"

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16 22:24

So you see, you are the very worker of iniquity, all the same.

But Peter was saved; so maybe you can be, too. IF your heart is not set on continually being ignorant in an effort to cause strife and instead to seek to understand and expose the dissension which is among those who claim to be Christian - which point is valid, and is a weakness that must be exposed and strengthened for those who truly desire the wisdom and knowledge that is from God and not from false teachers, claiming many different banners of affiliation and denomination.

So I will show you the error of your way, if the Lord will it; and if you do not see the error, then you may remain in your error all the same. But you will remain in your error alone - because all others who truly seek and the same, if they might have been deceived by your ignorance, will learn that you yourself are deceived and they will not believe you; therefore you will remain alone in your error (as all who remain in error are truly and always alone, because they seek not the right way that they may correct their error - fools they are, scoffing at reproof and instruction; unwise and full of evil. No good thing comes from error.)

reply posted on 10-10-2012 @ 02:23 AM by jmdewey60

reply to post by SimonPeter

I was quoting from the Bible .

You did give a quote, then proceeded to give an interpretation from which you drew a conclusion.

You shouldn't pretend to be a Christian if the blood of Christ offends you . Take your real place with the non-believers .

I am offended by those who sell doves in the temple.

I know your probably majored in English grammar and write books .

I majored in math. English I learned in high school. I don't write books. I do have over ten thousand posts on this forum, so I try to use conventions of the language in order to communicate. I picked those things up from having read so many hundreds of books.

Your comprehension of the bible and the message given is rather unconventional , down right back ass-ward about somethings .

Depends on where you are getting your conventions from. If you get it from a cult, then your conventions are rather worthless in my opinion. There is a mainstream sort of Christianity out there if you look for it, and it lies, I believe in serious biblical scholarship in the better academic circles. If you look for the "majority" view, what you will find is piles of material in great quantities but churned out form the cultish mills.