Hebrews 5:7-10... powerful verses that challenge many Christian doctrines

reply to post by SimonPeter

It changed her perspective about death .

Another thing that changes your perspective on death is getting older where most of your loved ones are already on the other side.

reply to post by jmdewey60
What Bible are you reading ?

I don't believe that you have actually read the bible . I think you have only read commentaries slanted to Preterist theology . Ezekiel 37 tells of Israel being brought back from dried bones to a fruitful thriving nation . Ezekiel 38 warns Israel about Gog the land of Magog in the later days . This war coming soon in the Middle East is most probably that war . Then in Ezekiel 39 the Lord tells of coming to Israels rescue leaving only a sixth part of of their enemy . I believe that the 6th part is left to make up Gog and Magog Rev. 20 verse 8 .

reply to post by jmdewey60


I'm 4 years older than you !

reply to post by SimonPeter

I don't believe that you have actually read the bible . I think you have only read commentaries slanted to Preterist theology .

I have only recently gotten serious about buying commentaries. The main one I have been using is Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, by G. Beale, which in no way could be construed as being Preterist. I am not aware of their being any Preterist commentaries. There are a couple Preterist type books I bought but don't find them especially useful. I stick mainly to mainstream Christian theology which may seem Preterist to you if you have been mainly feeding yourself on cultish propaganda.

Ezekiel 37 tells of Israel being brought back from dried bones to a fruitful thriving nation .

Which was supposed to happen with the return from the Babylonian exile of the Jews.

Ezekiel 38 warns Israel about Gog the land of Magog in the later days .

"Later days" means sometime off in the future. What this looks like to me is a prophecy saying things will be good again in the future to where you will look like a nice target to plunder. Where at the moment no one would even bother with them, being desperately poor. Next time (imagining this mythical golden age of the past that they had fallen from) The Lord will not let happen what happened last time, then you will actually like Him rather than directing your curses at Him like you are now.
Just propaganda for the troops. It really has nothing to do with our future and is all about what to us is a bygone past.

reply to post by SimonPeter

I'm 4 years older than you !

Congratulations!
You probably should have an attitude more like Lonewolf's.
I never thought I would reach thirty when I was young, thanks to the end-of-the-world propaganda I was fed from early childhood.

Well you of course avoided those hard questions . You are a shifty shyster when it comes to debating .
Again you did not address Ezekiel 39 . Jesus did not save Israel so your timing is definately wrong. Ezekiel 37 and 38 is then relating to the latter times meaning now .
There in lies a defect in your thinking about the timing of Jesus returning. There is a 1,000 year reign then Armageddon . Then the world is destroyed . At most a time of 1007 years for those events . 1980 years have passed since the time you have accepted as the Tribulation . So for almost 1000 years the world has gone on beyond that time you state as the end times . That does not compute . Then in Matthew Jesus gives us the parable of the Fig Tree . That parable is about Israel becoming a nation again after being spread all over the world . Israel was an occupied nation at the time of Jesus and shortly after would be scattered through out the world . Isreal was not saved . Jesus did not come again at any time up to now . You have discarded every thing not confirming your point .

reply to post by jmdewey60


Where is the promise of Jesus ? Are you not saved ? Has Jesus rejected you , or have you rejected Jesus being that you say he will not be coming back .

reply to post by SimonPeter

Where is the promise of Jesus ? Are you not saved ? Has Jesus rejected you , or have you rejected Jesus being that you say he will not be coming back .

You mean right now, before I die, from natural causes or otherwise.
No. Can you cite where it says this is what should be our main objective?
That was what the Pharisees were doing in the time of Jesus, trying to get the Messiah to come by being holy while neglecting all the things around them that they should be doing something about.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You have answered my question ! No further communication required .

reply to post by SimonPeter

Again you did not address Ezekiel 39

How about you addressing Ezekiel, chapters 40 through 48.
When did all that happen?
Or when do you think all that is going to happen, that there will be a priesthood making animal sacrifices at this temple as described?
Of course this is never going to happen and is just so much rhetoric from someone living in Babylon and imagining what Israel is like and and that the Israelites are scattered around him in countries that he can identify by name but knows nothing about otherwise.
He is presenting an idealized history and geography and an imaginary blueprint of how to build it, that replaces the actual history and geography which doesn't really work well in a story. None of this stuff is anything that is supposed to happen in the real world.

2nd Thessolonians chapter 2 explains that the harvest or Gathering to gether to the Lord will not happen by any means before the Son of Perdition is revealed by sitting in the Temple and showing himself as he were God .This is where the Temple is rebuilt . The Jews are making ready to do so as we speak .
A time stamp on the destruction of Israel where by Israel pours out a plague onthose that comes against it in in Zechariah 14 verse 12 . The Atomic Bomb is the only thing that replicates the effects of that plague . Another Time Stamp is the Mark of the Beast system that is world wide with a single person or entity in power to control the world and issue that electric money . Any hand held money could be exchanged at any time and uncontrolable by the AC . The technology of today facilitates that Beast System . Those two items logically disproves the preterist belief of a first century tribulation .

That 3rd Temple will have animal sacrifice just as before because the Jews do not accept Jesus as the Christ and recognize only the Law .
After the Abomination that Maketh Desolate occurs the Antichrist will be rebuked for presenting himself as God . In his fury he seeks to completely destroy Israel and they call on Jesus and in Ezekiel 39 Jesus tells how he will deal with the enemies of Israel and saves them .
Now Temple is no longer relevant as it has served it's purpose .

reply to post by SimonPeter

2nd Thessolonians chapter 2 explains that the harvest or Gathering to gether to the Lord will not happen by any means before the Son of Perdition is revealed by sitting in the Temple and showing himself as he were God .This is where the Temple is rebuilt .

Paul died before the temple was destroyed so what would make you think he was talking about another Temple?

The Atomic Bomb is the only thing that replicates the effects of that plague .

You are just parroting cult doctrine as if it was scripture.

Those two items logically disproves the preterist belief of a first century tribulation .

Have you ever read Josephus' Wars of the Jews?

reply to post by SimonPeter

That 3rd Temple will have animal sacrifice just as before because the Jews do not accept Jesus as the Christ and recognize only the Law .

And God will accept that as being fine that they reject Jesus, and will dwell in the temple enjoying the offerings? That is what Ezekiel is describing.
Something has to give, to you it is Christianity and Jesus and the church, to me it is the literal interpretation of Ezekiel.
You need to repent of your idolatry to your cult philosophy and accept Jesus as the Messiah.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Your English Major must have been from Bubba Gump University . Your reading comprehension is abominable or you haven't read the bible . There is a planGod laid out in the bible but you see only what you want to see . Are you in an institution or home for incapacitated people . I don't see how you can be on the computer all the time of the day and night and make a living unless you are the author John Dewey . Then I can't see it !
Have you forgot that God said the Antichrist will have his time to deceive and run his course . This is the time of the third temple . And no the Jews have not reverenced Jesus .God does not requisition the Temple to be built for Him . It is the Jewish wish to reinstitute Temple worship and the AC will permit that rebuilding where as the Arabs would attack immediatly if Israel started any activity on the Mount .
You should break away from that Preterist Cult and read the bible .

reply to post by SimonPeter

Are you in an institution or home for incapacitated people .

I'm physically disabled so I basically just sit around all day.

Your English Major must have been from Bubba Gump University .

I took a test when I started college, that everyone has to take, to see if you know the English you were supposed to have learned in High school. If you fail, you have to take a remedial course (bone head) which I did not have to take because I passed. Then all I had to do for my requirement for English was one semester of English composition where I had to write six essays of various types.

Have you forgot that God said the Antichrist will have his time to deceive and run his course . This is the time of the third temple . And no the Jews have not reverenced Jesus .God does not requisition the Temple to be built for Him . It is the Jewish wish to reinstitute Temple worship and the AC will permit that rebuilding where as the Arabs would attack immediatly if Israel started any activity on the Mount .

This is all cult propaganda. Normal Christianity teaches none of this.
These are someone's interpretation made two hundred years ago which became a cult.
The Bible does not teach any of this and what you imagine is all the stuff that had been drilled into your head that you only think the Bible says.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Isaiah 45 verse 7 says God created good and evil . He , not the Devil is in total control and has given Satan his parameters to koperate in . Just like with Job . Again you have been programed into the 7thday cult .

reply to post by SimonPeter

Again you have been programed into the 7thday cult .

How would you know what I was and what I was not (programmed into), unless you were one yourself?

OP-First, I'd like to commend you on bringing up a very valid point and continuing to hammer it home.

Having said that, let me ask you a couple of questions.

Why is it so important to you that Jesus wasn't God and that he didn't die? I mean, what does it matter, at the end of the day? How will believing that affect your life, and how do you think it will affect anyone else's life? I'm not saying that this is an answer to your challenge; I'm just curious as to why this seems so vitally important to you. You want to stop people from worshiping Jesus and believing he died for their sins...and then what? What's that going to do for them? For you?

Do you think that you are the first person to find these verses and point out what seems to be a pretty obvious error? In 2,000 years, no one has ever looked at these verses and drawn the same conclusions as you? That's pretty heady stuff. I mean, all the millions of people who have read the Bible and no one picked up on that? Well, of course they did. And no one tried to change or suppress it, the way that LDS does with the book of Mormon? I mean, that's a pretty serious liability right there out in the open. I grant you that there are some dumb people who read the Bible, but not all of them are morons. Enough people would have pointed this out and made such a fuss that it would have been changed, or the whole religion would have collapsed by now.

So we're left with the conclusion that these verses must not literally mean what you think they mean. Now, you object to people explaining Bible verses by using other ones and to people providing different definitions for terms like "death," but I'm sorry to tell you that those are two of the three ways that people interpret the Bible. The Bible has its own internal logic.

The Bible is not "user-friendly." It is not laid out like an instruction manual or a road map, despite being marketed by Christians like that. It requires digging, and reflection. It's also not like a dictionary, where you can just open it up and have answers clearly spelled out for you. Words change meaning over time, through different cultures and languages, and they require context for interpretation.

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Christians teach that the wage of sin is Hell. Now, either you have a contradiction, or you have to try to figure out what the Bible writer meant by "death." You cannot apply the modern meaning to the word and take it at literal face value. If I were to say to you, "You should check out the latest comedy video by Louis C.K.. Dude, I died laughing, " and you were to say, "You're not dead; you just contradicted yourself," it would be absurd. This seems like a silly example, because we both know what I mean by "died," but imagine if someone wrote the conversation down and then translated it to another language twenty centuries from now.

The third way that Christians interpret scripture is by oral tradition. Even the Bible admits that oral teaching is as good as or superior to the written word. 2nd Thess. 2:15 puts oral tradition on par with Paul’s letters, and 2 John 12 shows that the disciples preferred face-to-face teaching over the written word. So, who still has oral tradition? Find that out.

The early church fathers grappled with these questions in the three centuries after Christ, and from this debate came the Nicene Creed and what books are in the Bible. If Hebrews contradicted the death and divinity of Christ, they would have pulled it instead of canonizing it. Read the early church fathers if you are serious about getting an answer to your questions.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It says in the "offending" passages "Son though he was..." It is all over the NT that Jesus knew his fate, and though he said "If it be possible, let this cup pass from me," he still knew that the works of the Father would be done no matter what. So when it says that God was the one who could save Jesus from death, it is true, because God had ordained that Jesus would die on the cross. But remember, Jesus was saved from death, by the resurrection. If you ask me, I think he said things like this for the sake of his disciples, that they might also learn to accept the ways of God. Jesus did not need to lean obedience, for he always followed the will of God. But it was in his best interest to show his disciples the path to obedience, which is to accept God's path. If you cry out for the path to be changed, you will be heard, but the path remains whatever God wills it to be. If it changed, that is God's will, not man's.