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Hebrews 5:7-10... powerful verses that challenge many Christian doctrines

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posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 05:28 AM
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If you have a verse from Psalms you'd like to discuss, then cite it. I'm uninteretsed in playing guessing games with you.

I think we can cut to your second reply post, since we now seem to be in general agreement about what the Chrisitan view is, and I am not a Chrisitan apologist. Since you still disagree with both Christians and with me about what saved would mean in the context of Hebrews, I don't see that you and I could go forward with discussion about that anyway.


then all that does is finally prove that Jesus is NOT God.


That's an odd sort of final proof you've got there, Scorpie. "Proof" is when the premises and the conclusion go together in a compelling way, not in a way that one or two billion people think that the very opposite of your conclusion follows from the premises.

The argument with traction, I think, is to dispute that the Resurrection really happened, as both Muslims and many other non-Christians believe that it didn't happen. Granting the Resurrection as a fact of history is simply not a winner for your view.

Which is also why your choice of verses won't carry the day for you. The fellow who wrote Hebrews believed the Resurrection to be a fact of history. His exact christology may not have developed to the fully Nicene view yet, but he's way beyond thinking that Jesus was just a righteous man who received a special favor from God.

You might look at Hebrews 1: 1-8. God, in the author's view, has clearly begotten, and whom he begot was present at the very Creation. The author plainly is not talking about Allah.


A man who prayed, was killed and then saved by God from death... simply cannot be God. Are Christians willing to accept that?


Obviously not. And why should they? "Is not" is one thing, but "cannot" simply isn't the case.

Even as an agnostic, I can see logically that if man is an image of God, then God could be a man without contradiction. If God is omnipotent, then he can do whatever can be done without contradiction. Any man at all may talk to himself on occasion. If to pray is to talk to God, then when the man who is God talks to himself, he necessarily prays. Whatever happens after that would be the revealed will of God.

That position may be factually incorrect, but it is not necessarily incorrect and is not illogical.

Worse, if you accept the premise about God's omnipotence, as I think you might, then you have to explain how you come to know that God's will in this matter isn't to become a man. I suspect you know how that goes. You take the Koran as revelation. Your opponent does not. That's each of you contradicting the other; it's not your opponent contradicting her scriptures.




posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

Maybe you should have studied reading comprehension.
Or have spent more time looking at your post.
I think I just figured out what you were talking about here.
I said, "that doesn't even make sense the way it is worded" about
your question, "Do you also believe that you are afforded Grace and Mercy through the offering and sacrifice made by God of the acceptable blood sacrifice of His son Jesus the Christ ?"
I think the two different uses of the single word, sacrifice (as a verb and then as a noun) threw me off.
It still doesn't make sense to me, apart from the grammatical aspect of it.
It still ends up as God offering something to Himself, which makes no sense and really, in my opinion, is a confused notion that comes from a Catholic doctrine that is partially carried over into Protestantism without any real context since to admit to its origin is to legitimize Catholicism and pull out from under the Protestants, their rationale for existing.
edit on 14-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Jesus was the Lord come down and born into the flesh . He was subject also to the flesh and the burdens of the flesh . The time of his prayer was the fleshly concerns of suffering the brutal death . But the Spirit overcame it . We have a similar struggle every day during our everyday life . Let us be thankful that Jesus overcame the flesh .
I suppose you viewed the Passion of the Christ by Mel Gibson . If not you should even if you don't like Mel.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Use the word Sacrifice how you will . Your preconceived notions of what you want to believe is as arrogant as what you make" Christian Cultist " out to be .
This whole shooting match is Gods . Isaiah chapter 45 verse 5 thru 8 will tell you in black and white who God is and who you are .
Did you get the whole Abraham an Isaac as an offering and Gods promise to Abraham .
Yes God did offer the acceptable sacrifice for sin that man could never provide .
I guess you were not around for him to consult before he did anything . Well I guess we will struggle through anyway .
Do you tnhik Jwemdey can usdrentnad waht spinomteer is syniag auobt yuor atudtite .I doubt it .



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

Let us be thankful that Jesus overcame the flesh .

You may be thinking of another movie about Jesus, The Last Temptation of Christ.
The New Testament says that Jesus was tempted but it does not mention one of those temptations as being a reluctance to allow himself to be crucified.
He did accuse Peter of being Satan when he said that Jesus would never have that happen.
I doubt Jesus was tempted by Peter's take on future events.
In John, it has him saying why would he be hesitant about being killed since that was why he came.
edit on 14-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

Your preconceived notions of what you want to believe . . .
I started out a couple of years ago with views very similar to yours but studying the Bible without any cult influence, I realized I was wrong and adjusted my beliefs accordingly.

Isaiah chapter 45 verse 5 thru 8 will tell you in black and white who God is and who you are .
It is saying that The Lord brought about the collapse of Babylon and the rise of the Persians to help them out and they do not acknowledge Him for having brought that about.

Did you get the whole Abraham an Isaac as an offering and Gods promise to Abraham .
You are turning the telling of a historical event into a prophecy.

Yes God did offer the acceptable sacrifice for sin that man could never provide .
Huh? I don't think Issac was to be offered for sin. It does not say that. Abraham was told to go up and offer his son for a sacrifice. They had some strange ideas about sacrifice back then and it may not be quite so neat as you imagine.

Well I guess we will struggle through anyway .
Just keep in mind the prophecy that does hold true, that God desires obedience rather than sacrifice.
Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
1 Samuel 15:22
But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Do you tnhik Jwemdey can usdrentnad waht spinomteer is syniag auobt yuor atudtite
Lost me there, try again later.
edit on 14-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 09:39 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


First off , Isaiah is NOT speaking of Babylon or the Persians. You better read it again and stop shooting from the hip . Your missing !!

Secondmly you do not possess a skill that 55% of people have . You can't make the message out in my last sentence and that tells me your interpereting skills are lacking . That pretty much explains things .



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

First off , Isaiah is NOT speaking of Babylon or the Persians. You better read it again and stop shooting from the hip . Your missing !!
Read the first verse in the chapter, he is talking about Cyrus.
Have you ever read a commentary on Isaiah?

Secondmly you do not possess a skill that 55% of people have . You can't make the message out in my last sentence and that tells me your interpereting skills are lacking . That pretty much explains things .
I thought you were having a seizure or a stroke.
If it is a puzzle, it is simple enough, you are talking about yourself.
I understand your spelling skills are lacking so I just figured you were getting tired.
edit on 14-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Those 3 verses pertain to who God is with respects to his domain . He is saying I do it all . I'm the man . Place your self in the place of Cyrus . Verse 9 is of special importance to you .Do you really know who is writing those commentaries . Each time people comment on this site they are writing commentaries whether you agree or not .

The encrypted message was sort of a test . I think oyu failed ! If you had taken time to really look you could have read it . But you didn't . Just like some of your replys show you didn't really look at it . It reads Do you think that JMdewey can understand what simonpeter is saying about your attitude ?

My grammer skills are poor . My spelling is terrible by I can see Biblical Harmonies .
The trial by fire of Gods request for Abraham to sacrifice (blood sacrifice ) Isaac was a precursor to God the Father to Sacrifice his only begotten Son for man . Can there be any other reason for God to test Abraham in that manner ? I know that the Bible does not say this in word but instead in deed .



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 





The trial by fire of Gods request for Abraham to sacrifice (blood sacrifice ) Isaac was a precursor to God the Father to Sacrifice his only begotten Son for man . Can there be any other reason for God to test Abraham in that manner ? I know that the Bible does not say this in word but instead in deed .


Not only that but it was required of jews to purchase or aqcuire a lamb before Passover came so that they would have time to bond with the animal by feeding it, living with it and raising it as a pet, so that when the time came to sacrifice it, they would understand the true meaning of the Passover sacrifice.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


I feel we will not have long to debate the biblical interpertations , or when will Jesus come back . I think it would be a good move to store basic non perishable foods now . I and others fear something is coming that will be devastating . Good hearing from you .



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

. . . they would understand the true meaning of the Passover sacrifice.

What passes for "true" with you is really cult brainwashing and not the teaching of the Bible.
The Passover lamb was for a Passover meal.
Jesus said, this bread is my body, eat it.
This wine is my blood drink it.
That is the Passover meaning for Christians.
You are hanging out with people who want to do animal sacrifice.
That is weird.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 11:54 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

. . . or when will Jesus come back .

Jesus is not coming back.
You need to deal with that and to deal with your life and take responsibility for what you do here and now because that is what matters.
Look at the world as a place you and our descendants will have to live in, and do something about it rather than despairing and thinking it is just going to be burnt up anyway. Get involved in changing things from the evil path it is on. The way that was intended was to change things through each individual engaging with the people around them, to make it better.
Jesus said he came to save the world, so join him in that cause.
edit on 14-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

The encrypted message was sort of a test .

That is childish behavior and not something that could ever gain you any respect.
Interpreting the Bible is not a game of scrabble even if you treat it like it is.
If you studied the Bible through responsible books rather than cultish mumbo jumbo, you would know that.

Can there be any other reason for God to test Abraham in that manner ?
Apparently the Hebrews thought there was for hundreds of years.
I think if there was any sort of connection, it would have been picked up on by the writers of the New Testament.
edit on 15-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 03:55 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Hello ! You made a zero on that one . I read serveral paragraphs like that in a test to see if I was part of the 55 % that could see the message behind the misspelled words . I unjumbled the words and read the message instantly . The first and last letters are correct but the letters (Ltretes ) between them could be in any order .
This is actually a topic on ATS . The problem is is anul retentive people can't deal with it . English majors are generally not you Jocks in society but busy little people in their own controlled little existance who live vicariously through the media world . Anything out of their carefully controlled parameters does not compute . Instead of living through a similator you should take real helicopter dual instruction . It's expensive but a similator can't give you the sense of motion or peril if you screw up . I know I have been a SEL pilot for 20 years and own my own plane . I also have been a guitarest for most of my life . I guess you realize I visited your profile .
I don't think that you have addressed the fact that people are generally pretty damn smart and have always been even before established schools. Most can not face that they aren't better or superior to other people whom they have contempt . Yet those people may see you as pathetic . The statement that you thank God that you aren't one of those who in your words are cult worshipers reminds me of the man in the synagogue who prayed I thank you oh Lord that I'm not a sinner like him . Jesus had something to say about that one .
Put the books down and get out and live while you still can .



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


I feel we will not have long to debate the biblical interpertations , or when will Jesus come back . I think it would be a good move to store basic non perishable foods now . I and others fear something is coming that will be devastating . Good hearing from you .


As Jesus said "Do not fear, for all these things must come to pass before the end". I'm not going to worry about storing up anything, if the harpzao happens fine, if not i'll die anyway because my health is failing so survival isn't much of an issue for me. This is where we come to that crossroad on wether or not we will trust Jesus and his promises. I believe he will raise me up, and it is enough for me. I have a glimpse into what death is like, having 13 major surgeries and being under the knife for 11 hours at a time, all that anesthesia is like being dead. You literally do not know anything and as soon as they put me under, waking up 11 hours later it felt like i had just been out, time seemed to cease for me, it passed around me but to me it was like i had just gone to sleep before waking up.
edit on 15-10-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 08:55 AM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

The statement that you thank God that you aren't one of those who in your words are cult worshipers reminds me of the man in the synagogue who prayed I thank you oh Lord that I'm not a sinner like him .

This statement by you basically disproves the rest of the claims in your post.
I explained that I was quoting (I even put quotation marks around it) a hypothetical modern analog of the Pharisees of Jesus' day.
What you are doing with your scrabble puzzle actually fits that description, that you think interpreting the Bible is a matter of taking bits of it and rearranging it, without sitting down to understand what the actual teaching is that you took those bits from. For example the quote by you from Isaiah 45 that you did not bother to check the context of.

Instead of living through a similator you should take real helicopter dual instruction .
It's mainly a tool for studying geography to me, and making models of buildings and things to fill up that geography to see how they relate to each other positioning wise.
Anyway, you shouldn't take my theological criticism personally, though it it is hard for people to give up cherished errors that they have been brainwashed into believing by cults.
edit on 15-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Yes you are a true Preterist . How do you explain Ezekiel 38 and Jesus coming back to save Israel in Ezekiel 39 . How do you explain the Mark of the Beast system that has not been implimented in the past nor could be without the Internet . I guess we will throw out those chapters too . In fact Preterist will throw out all chapters that does not align with their self serving theology. Preterist are very close to the Jehovas Wittness and their beliefs that God lied when he said he was going to destroy the earth and that Jesus was not coming to take anybody but the 144000 to heaven . That makes you a king cultist . The top of the cultist world . There is always some motive to compel people to fashon their beliefs like I said before . For Preterist it's no Great Tribulation and I suppose no judgement on man . How nice for you !
I can't see any way that a supposedly intellegent person could take the bible and throw out parts that he believes and swear by other parts . It is either the true word of God or it's garbage .



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


The Life after death stories that you hear as well as the neuro surgeons post on this site leave little to fear . My wife for reasons unknown had one of those encounters . She didn't want to come back but didn't want to leave her loved ones . It changed her perspective about death .



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

How do you explain Ezekiel 38 and Jesus coming back to save Israel in Ezekiel 39 . How do you explain the Mark of the Beast system that has not been implimented in the past nor could be without the Internet . I guess we will throw out those chapters too . In fact Preterist will throw out all chapters that does not align with their self serving theology. Preterist are very close to the Jehovas Wittness and their beliefs that God lied when he said he was going to destroy the earth and that Jesus was not coming to take anybody but the 144000 to heaven .

Because none of these things you mentioned are actually said in the Bible.
What you are doing is repeating cult teachings that someone who was not in a cult, and just read the Bible, would never come up with.





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