Hebrews 5:7-10... powerful verses that challenge many Christian doctrines

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posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 06:49 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Except that it does not say that.
The emphatic part of the Hebrews quote is that God heard Jesus' prayers.
Jesus, as our priest, prays to Him who can save (God), giving as an offering on our behalf, prayers, which God accepts, showing him as a true priest.
It does not say Jesus asked for his own life to be saved (in the Hebrews quote).


Looking at it that way, the verse doesn't say he was praying on our behalf either.

All we know that Jesus did pray for the "cup to pass from him".
Its pretty clear he was praying for himself...and we read later on in Hebrews that the prayer was answered.




posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by eight bits
 



Putting aside your anachronistic and foreign Islamic "meaning," accomplishing God's will was the point of his prayer. Jesus need only have stood up and walked out of the garden if his fear of pain and death had overridden his commitment to his mission. Nobody was there yet to stop him. His home was Galilee, which was outside Roman jurisdiction. He could simply have gone home, and stayed there in peace for the rest of his natural life.


You're the one bringing up Islam, I suspect, as a distraction.

Yes, Jesus was obeying Gods will.
Yes, Jesus could have escaped easily, but instead allowed he Romans to capture him.
At the same time, Jesus didn't willingly surrender to those who wanted him dead... and he did try and pray for the "cup to pass", meaning he was hoping for a way out.

Hebrews 5:7 suggests his prayer was answered. The cup passed from him and he was saved... in the sense, he did not end up on the cross.



But you did. You mentioned that Jesus was dead for three days.


I said "It cant be said that a man was saved from death AND was dead for 3 days."....
which is the christian position on Jesus' death. That he was dead for 3 days.


No, the four verses, read as you read them, aren't even representative of the chapter you plucked them from. The chapter boundaries were added much later. Hebrews is a letter, meant to be read as a whole in one sitting.


My concern is that you have misrepresented your opponents' position. I don't "want" the verses to say anything. I can read them, and have read more besides, so I can see that the verses don't say what you portray them as saying.

I'm fully aware that the 4 verses are inconsistent with the overall theme of the bible.... that Jesus was captured and executed. Instead of admitting that, Christians resort to twisting and skewing verses to make sure that the verse fits the over all doctrine. "Up" becomes "down", "saved" becomes "dead".

Not the first time, wont be the last.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by eight bits
 

. . . that belief-centered view is held by some, and only some, Protestants. More than 2 out of 3 professing Christians belong to older, non-Protestant churches. "Usually" doesn't mean "held by a fraction of a minority."
People who promote that particular belief seem to have a blind spot and don't realize they are essentially promoting another system of salvation by works, this one being the "work" of believing, that there is a certain way of believing, which is the result of human endeavor to suss out the "correct" theology.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

Have you ever read of a bloodless sacrifice in the bible .
Yes.
Wave offering. Grain offering. Cake offering. First fruits offering. Incense offering.
Also places in the New Testament where in the English translation it says "sacrifice" when the actual saying in the Greek is more ambiguous and the literal translation means a gift.

That stipulation was prescribed by God not Christians .
I just said you were wrong, so you have no basis to support that statement.
Beyond that, you are an extremist in that you have this idea that somehow the old testament is something that was written on the spot from before there was a human being to write it, and so is an accurate description of real events that has been magically preserved for six thousand years. The reality is that it was written in more recent times and was describing something in the dim and distant past, even to them, with no written records whatsoever, and was really describing an imaginary history based on what they could see in their current situation. There was a memory of a temple and sacrifices being performed at it and they recorded that, along with a hypothesis for how those practices came about.

Jesus shed his blood before there was Christians .
Jesus had disciples which means people who emulate their master, trying to replicate in themselves what they witness in the one who is their model. That is the definition of a Christian. You have some sort of cult doctrine in your head that tries to tell you there were only "Jews" in the time of Jesus. The Jews, as characters in the Gospels were the rulers of the temple and was not a description of everyone who believed their God was named YHWH.

Before we had the bible of any kind to read he laid out the gift of Grace and Mercy with the blood .
That is something taught by some people, that there was immediate results of sin, such as The Lord making clothes for Adam and Eve from skins, where the word means something like a membrane, which could be made of anything such as plastic, if The Lord had it in mind to make something high tech. The offering of Cain was not rejected by The Lord because it was not bloody but because it was not his best.

Christ died and his blood was spilled in the process as required by God the Father .
In your own mind it is but it happened to be part of the brutality that was given out to people considered the worst sort of criminals, at that time and place.

Now if you have a problem with Gods way of handling things take it up with him .
That is a ridiculous statement as if somehow by magic everything you think is true is so because you think so.

You probably don't have to worry , I don't believe you have had any contact with the Blood of Christ .
God has made you judge now? Jesus was a gift to us from God. We do not have the power to offer Jesus to God.
edit on 12-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 09:43 AM
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Greetings, Mr. Dewey. We could do a thread on faith and works, and have more than once, but I hold on to optimism that this thread's issues can be resolved more directly.

Scorpie:


You're the one bringing up Islam, I suspect, as a distraction.


The central problem of the thread is how anybody could possibly have misread a few short lines as thoroughly as you have misread these verses. That there is a widely-adopted approach to scripture that is prone to just that kind of misreading is bona fide useful information for the reader. The conclusion you reach is both typical of and peculiar to Islam among world religions,


The cup passed from him and he was saved... in the sense, he did not end up on the cross.


So, the description is entirely fair.


he did try and pray for the "cup to pass", meaning he was hoping for a way out.


We keep going over this. What you think that phrase means is all very interesting, but a difference between what you think and what somebody else thinks is not a contradiction in the text, nor is it a contradiction between the text of the epistle and the text of a gospel.

Jesus didn't hope for a way out. He had a way out. He could have walked away. He didn't walk away. So, he was praying for something else. That's not news, except apparently to you.


I'm fully aware that the 4 verses are inconsistent with the overall theme of the bible....


No, you aren't. There is no inconsistency in this text. You have simply made up your own, coincidentally characteristically Muslim, assumption about what the author of Hebrews meant by what Jesus prayed for and was heard, which is inconsistent with what he prayed for and was heard according to the gospels. The contradiction is between your assumption and the text, not between this text and others.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 





The offering of Cain was not rejected by The Lord because it was not bloody but because it was not his best.



And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.


The question of why Cain's offering was rejected was a matter of contention among my family. It was something that would come up during family dinners, like Thanksgiving, when we all gathered together, arguing over the value of fruit and vegetables over meat, in God's eyes.

My daughter and I moved to Maui, Hawaii, when she was just a baby, and she grew up in the upcountry rural area of the island, during the 1970's and '80's. During that time, upcountry Maui, was a veritable "garden of Eden." We could go for a walk, following a waterfall stream and find an abundant amount of wild mangoes, passion fruit, bananas, berries, lychee, avocados, etc. There was so much fruit that it was literally falling off the trees and rotting on the ground.

So when she was around six years old, and we're at a family Thanksgiving dinner, the subject of Cain's rejected offering came up between the adults at the table again. Fruits and vegetables or meat, what does God prefer, and why?

My wise little daughter chimed in. "Well, of course God rejected "the fruit from the ground" it was full of worms! You're supposed to pick it from the tree, before the bugs get it!" The argument was won, and we never needed to discuss it again!



edit on 12-10-2012 by windword because: spelling



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by eight bits
 




You have simply made up your own, coincidentally characteristically Muslim, assumption about what the author of Hebrews meant by what Jesus prayed for and was heard, which is inconsistent with what he prayed for and was heard according to the gospels.


The narrative in Hebrews 5:7-10 is not consistent with the Christian thought that Jesus was executed.

There is also a certain Psalm that confirms the same, i.e- that Jesus was saved. I didn't bring it up in this thread because I know fully well that Christians would deny that the particular Psalm had anything to do with Jesus.

Prophecies in the Psalms apply to Jesus, ONLY when its convenient.
When its inconvenient, or when it directly contradicts Christian beliefs....it does NOT apply to Jesus.


edit on 12-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by windword
 

The question of why Cain's offering was rejected was a matter of contention among my family.

I would recommend reading the Septuagint version of the story.
The NETS version web site offers free PDF files, by book, of an English translation from what the editors believe is the best Greek text version they could compile.
I don't always agree with their results but it does give a better explanation of the situation with Cain than you find in the standard version based mainly on the Masoretic Hebrew.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 

The narrative in Hebrews 5:7-10 is not consistent with the Christian thought that Jesus was executed.
That was dealt with in the Gospels so did not need to be repeated in Hebrews which was meant to encourage Christians discouraged by persecution and were considering just going back to Judaism.
The writer of Hebrews is bolstering their commitment to the new religion by explaining Jesus was everything good Judaism had to offer, only better, to where he was actually the superior of the being the Jews mistakenly took for God.
edit on 12-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


No you have convicted yourself . You are good at calling everybody else an idiot but have you looked at yourself from other peoples point of view? You have missed something , it's called faith . You can't find it by reading anything and it's required to be saved by the Grace and Mercy offered through the blood sacrifice of Christ .

I can do nothing to damage your image on this site , you have opened your mouth and let the world see your inner most thoughts, the boundries of your little world and motive . You should get outside more !



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

. . . the boundries of your little world and motive . . .

And what do you think my motive is, to belittle your faith?
Not exactly, but maybe to point out the high horse some people think they are on, much like the Pharisees of Jesus' day, of an artificial holiness based on some sort of orthodox belief.
"I thank God that I am not like those of inferior theology, like that person there, who hasn't figured out quite how to juggle the scriptures in his head into the form necessary to make himself saved." If what you claim was true, I think it would just say it and not be something you have to come up with using a sort of complex logic that happens to have some significant gaps in it.

edit on 12-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


``So you do no believe that Jesus was born of a literal virgin , the Son of God , died on the cross , rose the 3rd day , acccended to heaven to be on the right hand of the Father and will return at the time appointed in the clouds and reap His harvest and gather the dead in Christ ? Do you also believe that you are afforded Grace and Mercy through the offering and sacrifice made by God of the acceptable blood sacrifice of His son Jesus the Christ ? If not we can stop right there .



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:18 PM
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The narrative in Hebrews 5:7-10 is not consistent with the Christian thought that Jesus was executed.


The Christian position is that Jesus triumphed over death by rising from the dead. That is fully consistent with Hebrews 5: 7-10. It is also a moral certainty that that is what the author of those verses believed to be the facts of the matter, what with him being a proto-orthodox Christian.

OK - floor me. How does Jesus rise from the dead if he doesn't die first?


There is also a certain Psalm that confirms the same, i.e- that Jesus was saved. I didn't bring it up in this thread because I know fully well that Christians would deny that the particular Psalm had anything to do with Jesus.


Smart move not to bring it up, then. Oh wait, you just did, without the fuss and bother of quoting it, having to answer questions about it, or even giving number and verse so people can look it up for themselves.

BTW - I think the verb you're looking for is "spared," not "saved." Christians believe that Jesus was saved from death, by rising from the dead a few days after he died.


Prophecies in the Psalms apply to Jesus, ONLY when its convenient.


No doubt that would make an interesting thread topic, but how somebody else reads Psalms doesn't help rehabilitate your misreading of Hebrews.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

``So you do no believe that Jesus was born of a literal virgin , the Son of God , died on the cross , rose the 3rd day , acccended to heaven to be on the right hand of the Father . . .
This much is in the New Testament plain enough.

. . . and will return at the time appointed in the clouds and reap His harvest and gather the dead in Christ ?
Not if it already happened.

Do you also believe that you are afforded Grace and Mercy through the offering and sacrifice made by God of the acceptable blood sacrifice of His son Jesus the Christ ?
There is no "blood sacrifice" spoken of in the Bible like what you seem to imagine. God ignores our past sins through His forbearance. It is Jesus' righteousness that secured that for us, and it happened to involve, among other things, his dying in compliance with the plan put into effect starting with his birth from a woman.
We enter into a covenant with God that is sealed in his blood, to live unto righteousness. God raised him from the dead to be the executor of that covenant and the intermediary through whom blessings are given to us including the spirit of Christ to live godly lives.
edit on 12-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

I suppose you might read this .
Hebrews chapter 9 verse verse 11 through 28 is dripping with the importance of the blood sacrifice of Jesus . It gets mighty messy proceed at your own risk .



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

I suppose you might read this .
Hebrews chapter 9 verse verse 11 through 28 is dripping with the importance of the blood sacrifice of Jesus . It gets mighty messy proceed at your own risk .
I know about that and read it right before I made my last post.
If you think you can make an argument using those verses to support your claim (that doesn't even make sense the way it is worded), then go ahead.



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 01:16 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I have never talked to such a person as your self . Again it's not you its' the rest of the world that is screwed up . You are lord over all interpertations and the king of all understanding . Maybe you should have studied reading comprehension. Now you are dictating to the Lord how he should relate his message to people of all ages . And you say Jesus already came back during the 1st century . And what are we doing now ? Are we in the wrath ? Did he abandon us ? One thing that I see is that the bible was never enough for you . You are like some that I have seen where they are the masters of religion , they have studied all of them . And I'll bet you have studied everything as well .
I suggest you talk about this with your psychiatrist the next appointment . I'll bet you do see one !



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

And you say Jesus already came back during the 1st century .

"Coming back" is your term, not mine.
The "arrival" is Jesus coming into his power. The signs of that event were here for us to see and to know that it did take place.
The rest of the mythology that people have invented regarding a "return" is based, in my opinion, on faulty interpretation.
What was "future" in Jesus' time is now our past.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by eight bits
 




The Christian position is that Jesus triumphed over death by rising from the dead. That is fully consistent with Hebrews 5: 7-10. It is also a moral certainty that that is what the author of those verses believed to be the facts of the matter, what with him being a proto-orthodox Christian.
OK - floor me. How does Jesus rise from the dead if he doesn't die first?


For the record, I am fully aware that the overall Christian belief is that Jesus was crucified.
I am only pointing out Hebrews 5:7-10 as one of the many anomalies in the bible.

Hebrews 5:7-10 becomes consistent with the Christian position that Jesus rose from the dead... only when you force verse 7 Jesus offered up prayers to the one who could save him from death, and was heard to mean "Jesus was killed on the cross and rose on the third day, and thus saved from death".

That is pretty much how Christians are explaining away Hebrews 5:7.
Hardly surprising, considering Christians force ANY verse that contradicts their doctrine, to read as something else.



BTW - I think the verb you're looking for is "spared," not "saved." Christians believe that Jesus was saved from death, by rising from the dead a few days after he died.


To say God spared Jesus means God was the one who intended to kill him and then changed His mind and spared him.

To say God saved Jesus from death, means God rescued Jesus from those who wanted him dead, as the verse suggests.

Big difference.



Smart move not to bring it up, then. Oh wait, you just did, without the fuss and bother of quoting it, having to answer questions about it, or even giving number and verse so people can look it up for themselves.

If the Christians posting here knew their bible, they would have brought it up by now.

Till then, heres a clue.... satan quoted from that Psalm when he tempted to Jesus...thereby confirming that the psalm was a direct reference to Jesus. The most interesting part about the psalm is the way it ends.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by eight bits
 



Now, even if my interpretations of Hebrews is completely wrong....
and Jesus was indeed killed and rose on the third day, thus was "saved" from death by the one who could save him from death.... then all that does is finally prove that Jesus is NOT God.

A man who prayed, was killed and then saved by God from death... simply cannot be God. Are Christians willing to accept that?





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