Hebrews 5:7-10... powerful verses that challenge many Christian doctrines

reply to post by backcase

Jesus was heard, but that does not mean that the Father knows what is best for His children.

Right! Jesus was not the father, he was one of God's children, just like us.

"Then Jesus said to them, 'When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things'" (John 8:28).

Jesus claimed to be "the son of man."

Also, Jesus being the Word,

Jesus never said that he was the "word."

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I tend to be more of a fan of the accurate Alexandrian text than that of the Received. Question is , What bible are you reading? Plus, It really doesnt matter who, or what Jesus thought he was, Its who and what YOU think he is. This was the whole point Jesus was stressing in the verse I quoted. tsk tsk...reading comprehension.

You havent read the bible have you ? It is very evident you have no understanding about the bible or Jesus ..reply to post by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by windword

Right! Jesus was not the father, he was one of God's children, just like us.

wrong! Jesus was NOT like us. Jesus had a divine nature. He could do only what God can do. Jesus claimed to be the beginning and the end. Only God can be the beginning and the end.This is the nature of God. Their Can only be ONE God. Jesus is he.

reply to post by SimonPeter

You havent read the bible have you ? It is very evident you have no understanding about the bible or Jesus

Yes sir. I have never read the bible ever. I have no understanding about the bible whatsoever.

How about you convince me and the other Christians that your understanding of the bible is 100% accurate, so we may all believe what you believe.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I'm not sure anyone can tell you who Jesus is . You have already made up your mind .

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by windword

 

Right! Jesus was not the father, he was one of God's children, just like us.

wrong! Jesus was NOT like us. Jesus had a divine nature. He could do only what God can do.

Right. Because he was an enlightened master who was teaching the way to God.

John 12:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus claimed to be the beginning and the end.

Jesus is not God. He made the distinction continually that he was not his father!

Only God can be the beginning and the end.This is the nature of God. Their Can only be ONE God. Jesus is he.

We were all here in the beginning, that's why we are all culpable for the sin of Adam and Eve. We will all be there at the end, right?

Jesus was not God, but a messenger of his father. He was a spiritual being, probably the reincarnation of Melchizedek, while John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. He was an ascended master who chose to come into this plane.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

We are all both born of spirit and of flesh, as was Jesus!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Jesus sorrow and agony in the garden was not for Eternal Life, it was for His suffrage. The Father was hidden from Jesus perception as a spiritual suffering, but he was not praying to be saved from hell, but to save others from it, and that He would have the strength.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Ok, so who's interpretations of the bible am I supposed to subscribe to?

The interpretation you can come to if approached with the right attitude.
If you approach it to find fault in it, then the right interpretation should not be expected to come to you.
My main point is that just straight derogatory statements of course can never constitute any kind of proper interpretation, and much less the right one.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Enochwasright, I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into your posts.

But those are all just theology lessons from a christian point of view. You are just pulling up an unrelated verse from somewhere else and saying "look, the son is this and that".

It really does NOT address the verses in question.

Try and simplify by addressing the points in the OP.

1. If Jesus was "fully God and fully man"... why did he need to "learn" obedience?
2. If Jesus was crucified.... why does that verse say he was saved from death?


Can you answer these simple questions directly?

Read this reply and the OP that I set in place a few days ago. It is entirely related to your premise. The excluded middle in this case allows the broader perspective to emerge. Consider it this way.

If a train engineer and a friend argue over the train whistle, which one is correct. The engineer says the whistle does not change pitch. The friend watching the train go by says that it does. Who is correct? Both. The Doppler effect is the excluded middle.

Here is your excluded middle: LINK

Also, consider this from the Gospel of the Nazirines.

1.Again the twelve were gathered together in the circle of palm trees, and one of them even Thomas asked the others, "What is Truth? For the same things appear different to different minds, and even to the same mind at different times. What, then, is Truth?"

2.And as they were speaking Yeshua appeared in their midst and said, "Truth, one and absolute, is in God alone, for no man, neither any body of men, knows that which God alone knows, who is the All in All. To men is truth revealed, according to their capacity to understand and receive."

3."The One truth has many sides, and one sees one side only, another, and some see more than others, according as it is given to them."

4.Behold this crystal; how the one light is manifest in twelve faces, yea four times twelve, and each face reflects one ray of light, and one regards one face, and another, another, but it is the one crystal, and the one light that shines in all."

5."Behold again, When one climbs a mountain and attaining one height, he says, this is the top of the mountain, let us reach it, and when they have reached that height, lo, they see another beyond it until they come to that height from which no other height is to be seen, if so be they can attain it."

6."So it is with truth. I am the truth and the way and the life, and have given to you the truth which I have received from above. And that which is seen and received by one, is not seen and received by another. That which appears true to some, seems not true to others. They who are in the valley don't see what they who are on the hill top see."

7."But to each, it is the truth as the one mind seeth it, and for that time, till a higher truth shall be revealed to the same; and to the soul which receives higher light, shall be given more light. Wherefore don't condemn others, that you not be condemned."

8."As you keep the holy law of love, which I have given to you, so will the truth be revealed more and more to you, and the spirit of truth which comes from above will guide you, albeit through many wanderings, into all truth, even as the fiery cloud guided the children of Israel through the wilderness."

9."Be faithful to the light you have, till a higher light is given to you. Seek more light, and you will have abundantly; rest not, until you find."

10."God gives you all truth, as a ladder with many steps, for the salvation and perfection of the soul, and the truth which seems today, you will abandon for the higher truth tomorrow. Press toward perfection."

11."Who so keeps the holy law which I have given, the same will save their souls, however differently they may see the truths which I have given."

12."Many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, we have been zealous for your truth. But I will say to you, NO! but, that others may see as you see, and none other truth beside. Faith without charity is dead. Love is the fulfilling of the law."

13."How will faith in what they receive profit them that hold it in unrighteousness? They who have love have all things, and without love there is nothing worth. Let each hold what they see to be the truth in love, knowing that where love is not, truth is a dead letter and profits nothing."

14."There abide goodness, and truth, and beauty, but the greatest of these is goodness. If any have hatred to their fellows, and harden their hearts to the creatures of God's hands, how can they see truth to salvation, seeing their eyes are blinded and their hearts are hardened to God's creation."

15."As I have received the truth, so have I given it to you. Let each receive it according to their light and ability to understand, and don't persecute those who receive it after a different interpretation."

16."For truth is the might of God, and it shall prevail in the end over all errors. But the holy law which I have given is plain for all, and just and good, Let all observe it for the salvation of their souls."

2 Corinthians 3:6

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Just as life can create a stumbling block, so the letter kills. The Spirit is the way to see life from the dead letter (The Past). Look to the future of what the letter brings. This is where life is. God raises his children, including the Son of God.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
b) The promise of eternal salvation is for all who obey him...
OBEY, not just believe he died on the cross for their sins. I also don't recall Jesus teaching people that they need to believe that he died for their sins to be saved. Not even AFTER his resurrection when his followers saw him. Why is that?

The popular version of Christianity will make it a huge deal if it's gonna make their religion easy!

Here it is:

Matthew 28:19-20

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age"

Luke 24:47

"and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Acts 1:8

" But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by backcase

 

You forget that Jesus also said "Father, not my will, but yours".

Thats correct.

Now... was it in the Fathers will to save him from death, like Jesus prayed for?

Hebrews 5:7 seems to suggest so.

“Father, my flesh entreats me to ask: Is there no other way? For I am whole and perfectly sound. I am enjoined to perfection. Must I die?”
“I will answer Your flesh, My beloved Son, for it speaks plainly as a man.
A man cojoined to the divine. It is proper then that Your flesh should appeal Our decision to Me.
Surely it is that You shall sit in judgment of all flesh who have lived upon the earth. Therefore You shall fully know what Your judgments will entail. When You decree ‘life’ then that life shall be for all time for Your word anoints it.
Should You decree ‘death’ then that death shall be for all time for Your word appoints it. So that none may say ‘You know not what you decree by death’
You shall know it.
Now it is with a great fear that death is forced to encompass the divine, as I will cause death to do, for death knows to do so is to only ensure deaths own destruction liken to a mist evaporating under the morning sun.
So comfort Your flesh with the knowledge that deaths hold in Your case will be weak, tenuous and exceedingly short.”

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

b) The promise of eternal salvation is for all who obey him... OBEY, not just believe he died on the cross for their sins. I also don't recall Jesus teaching people that they need to believe that he died for their sins to be saved. Not even AFTER his resurrection when his followers saw him. Why is that?

Jesus said to believe all the words he spoke.

John 12:47-50

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

And what did Jesus specifically say about himself?

John 10:7-15

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


(Re:a)

Christ is part of the Godhead. Not a contradiction in scripture. See my reply to your other thread on this;
www.abovetopsecret.com...

c) Jesus was heard, meaning he was saved from death. Which basically counters the claim about Jesus being dead for 3 days for three days. It cant be said that a man was saved from death AND was dead for 3 days.

Being heard means nothing of the sort. That's a huge reach. Christ descended into Hades and conquered death and sin. Welcome to your (apparently) first exposure to the Christus Victor (recapitulation) view of atonement.

For your reading enjoyment along those lines- here is St. John Chrysostom's Paschal Homily (which speaks of the significance of Christ's death and resurrection):

If any man be devout and loveth God,
Let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast!
If any man be a wise servant,
Let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord.

If any have laboured long in fasting,
Let him how receive his recompense.
If any have wrought from the first hour,
Let him today receive his just reward.
If any have come at the third hour,
Let him with thankfulness keep the feast.
If any have arrived at the sixth hour,
Let him have no misgivings;
Because he shall in nowise be deprived therefore.
If any have delayed until the ninth hour,
Let him draw near, fearing nothing.
And if any have tarried even until the eleventh hour,
Let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness.

For the Lord, who is jealous of his honour,
Will accept the last even as the first.
He giveth rest unto him who cometh at the eleventh hour,
Even as unto him who hath wrought from the first hour.
And He showeth mercy upon the last,
And careth for the first;
And to the one He giveth,
And upon the other He bestoweth gifts.
And He both accepteth the deeds,
And welcometh the intention,
And honoureth the acts and praises the offering.

Wherefore, enter ye all into the joy of your Lord;
Receive your reward,
Both the first, and likewise the second.
You rich and poor together, hold high festival!
You sober and you heedless, honour the day!
Rejoice today, both you who have fasted
And you who have disregarded the fast.
The table is full-laden; feast ye all sumptuously.
The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away.
Enjoy ye all the feast of faith:
Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness.

Let no one bewail his poverty,
For the universal Kingdom has been revealed.
Let no one weep for his iniquities,
For pardon has shown forth from the grave.
Let no one fear death,
For the Saviour's death has set us free.
He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it.

By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry:
Hell, said he, was embittered
When it encountered Thee in the lower regions.

It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face to face.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is risen, and thou art overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave.
For Christ, being risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

To Him be glory and dominion
Unto ages of ages.

Amen.

reply to post by LeSigh


There is nothing in the Bible, in Jesus' words that says that he went to Hell or Hades after death. In fact, we have this:

Luke 23:43
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Jesus never talked about Hell or Hades after the crucifixion to his disciples. There is good evidence in the Bible that he didn't even die on the cross, but survived the ordeal, much to the surprise of his followers.

All that is just the imagination and wishful thinking of Paul, Saul of Tarsus, nothing more.

Why is it so hard to believe that if Jesus prayed for something it happened? He prayed to God to be saved from the ordeal of death, and he was saved. He was crucified but he didn't die on the cross after all!

Originally posted by windword
There is good evidence in the Bible that he didn't even die on the cross, but survived the ordeal, much to the surprise of his followers.

Kindly present your "good evidence," please.

reply to post by windword

Jesus never talked about Hell or Hades after the crucifixion to his disciples. There is good evidence in the Bible that he didn't even die on the cross, but survived the ordeal, much to the surprise of his followers.

Jesus said he came to lay down his life for his sheep so that they would have eternal life. (John 10)

There is mention of Jesus' resurrection in Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. So, are you saying now that along with Paul, that Matthew, Mark, Luke & John are liars too?

reply to post by adjensen

John 20:17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

"Touch me not," Because he was still in a great deal of pain, after his ordeal. Then he says something akin to, "I haven't ascended, but tell them that I have." A tell tale sign of a conspiracy.

Luke 24:39

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

No explanation is necessary.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

He was hungry after the ordeal. Ever seen a spirit that was hungry and ate? Did he use the "stool" as well?

There's more. But that's enough for now, I think

reply to post by windword


That's right. We'll have heavenly bodies that allow us to eat, but we will not need sleep and we will never grow old or die. This is consistent throughout the Bible. Over and over again the Bible says that our corruptible bodies turn into incorruptible bodies.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Regardless of the text in question, no claim about a portion of any passage should be used as proof for anything without first having a firm understanding of the context.

Your focus is too narrow to have grasped the picture. You've made no attempt to connect your interpretation to the passage as a whole. To make matters worse, your only shifting the focus to the areas that suit your agenda and ignoring anything that could potentially drive the discussion forward in a fair, unbiased, and civilized manner.

Quit filling ATS with 'anti-religous' nonsense when you've yet to demonstrate some sort of competence in the that field. Imagine what would happen if we started making our own interpretations from the OP without considering the context of the passage. I gotta say, it's not going to be pretty.

Grow up and think about what your going to talk about before you speak.