Born again... and again?

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posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 06:23 PM
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Im going to piece together some scripture here... This is not meant as an assult on anyones beliefs, but keep in mind this is not comming from a "christian" perspective either.

Reincarnation has always been a facinating topic of conversation for me... I believe both Reincarnation and Resurrection exist, and are both a part of our journey. The soul/spirit that lies within all life is eternal, and without an end.

Being born again ties in with this idea, but perhaps its not what is held in the traditional christian view...

Heres a different perspective...

Lets have a look at John...

3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

...........

Pause....

I'd like to point out a passage from an earlier book relating to this topic Nicodemus brings up...

Job 1

20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.


We now return you to the regularly sceduled scripture


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


.........

Here we basically have Jesus telling Nicodemus "not to worry about being born again"? Is it possible he said this because he meant everyone will be born again, and again, and again... until they are perfected?

Jesus clears it up in the following verses...

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

............

Now if "no man hath ascended up to heaven except those that came from heaven" as he said... That means anyone who is headed to "heaven" in the future, has already been there... They just didn't retain the memory of it, just like pretty much everyone. This is the veil thats placed over the eyes at birth as discussed in other scripture.

Those that ascend to this "heaven"... already came from heaven... perhaps they're returning to "perfect" themselves... as Jesus suggested in John 17:23, Matthew 5:48

And we close this perspective with the key to perfecting ones self...

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The truth, the life, and the way... to understanding the true God lies within his son...

The example given for all... and the keys to the realization of the spirit within...

Thanks for reading


edit on 7-10-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 07:35 PM
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How odd, reincarnation is becoming a new trend on ATS.

I believe it to be so, like I also believe it was edited (or attempted to be) out the Bible, as were real stories turned into fairy tales.
edit on 7-10-2012 by Sinny because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




Now if "no man hath ascended up to heaven except those that came from heaven" as he said... That means anyone who is headed to "heaven" in the future, has already been there... They just didn't retain the memory of it, just like pretty much everyone. This is the veil thats placed over the eyes at birth as discussed in other scripture.


All souls started in heaven, even Satan started in heaven. For the ones that are of man, in the very beginning, they just sat until they were called to inhabit a physical body to experience life in. For the ones that are not of man, they came here for two reasons; to either learn, or assist man in different ways.

Memory is there, but is locked. It is up to said person to bring those memories to the surface.

Above likes when you can figure things out instead of always asking for the answer.



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


There are so many other verses that confirm this.

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Keep the Dew in mind as you read the next few references.

1 Kings 17

17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[a] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”

Elijah turns off the water. No more dew. What is dew? Dew is the droplets from a larger body of water that have ascended, the fallen in the morning, shortly before the sun rises. Do you see any symbolism in that? What happens next, in this very chapter?

Elijah meets a widow woman and her son dies.

17 Some time later the son of the woman who owned the house became ill. He grew worse and worse, and finally stopped breathing. 18 She said to Elijah, “What do you have against me, man of God? Did you come to remind me of my sin and kill my son?”

19 “Give me your son,” Elijah replied. He took him from her arms, carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his bed. 20 Then he cried out to the Lord, “Lord my God, have you brought tragedy even on this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?” 21 Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried out to the Lord, “Lord my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”

22 The Lord heard Elijah’s cry, and the boy’s life returned to him, and he lived. 23 Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, “Look, your son is alive!”

24 Then the woman said to Elijah, “Now I know that you are a man of God and that the word of the Lord from your mouth is the truth.”

Elijah restores the son to life after taking him UP and then DOWN. Who is Elijah in the New Testament? He is John the Baptist. John baptizes in water as a symbol for preparing the way for the Lord in the wilderness. How does he prepare the way? He turns the water back on. 7 billion souls are here today. How can we confirm this?

Acts 24

I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Notice, both the wicked and righteous are raised. Not just the righteous. Paul believed that the dead would be resurrected before the Day of the Lord. Why? To be judged as nations on the Earth. Elijah prepared the way by bringing the dew back to the land. The Son rises and evaporates the dew with fire.

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Go back now and read Isaiah 26 again. The righteous are put to rest while the evil is consumed on Earth. They are then brought back.

I am surprised you are not a Christian in light of such a cloud of witness. Are you prepared for this?

Revelation 1:7

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[
So shall it be! Amen.

We are all here to see an event. Taking the name puts us in the character of Christ and identifies us and marks us for removal from the fire.




edit on 7-10-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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I am 99.99999% sure we are reincarnated after this life and I also believe that reincarnation is what Jesus really taught, except the church got its hands on the story and twisted it into this faith-based nonsense we have today.

My interpretation of John 3:5 fits in perfectly with reincarnation as well. What I think Jesus meant was that you have to be born of your mothers water (water breaking) and be born with a spirit (all babies gain them at conception) in order to see heaven.

We have all already been born again and we are in the kingdom of god right now, the reason we cannot "see" this is because of what religion teaches and what man (Satan) has turned the world into.

No matter who or what you believe in, you will have eternal life. The best things in (life) really are free.


S&F
edit on 7-10-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 7-10-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


You wrote:


not coming from a "christian" perspective


And then ALL of your references came from the bible. ONE book!

Sure, it's fun to play with such ideas, but to actually believe in supernatural resurrections or reincarnations, or anything that has ZERO scientific evidence is just pure folly.

You know what we need? We need to be able to take a brain from a recently dead person, freeze it, and then have the technology to bring it back into consciousness a few months later and see what this person has to say about being dead (of course we'd need to find a way to communicate with the brain). THEN maybe these silly ideas will finally be put to rest.
edit on 10/7/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 08:37 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


He is interpreting the christian text in a non-christian way, that's what he meant by perspective.



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj
 


He is interpreting the christian text in a non-christian way, that's what he meant by perspective.


Sure, but aren't there any other texts he can also use to further validate his beliefs? What is one source when dealing with such unverifiable notions?

Having one source (and a non-scientific one at that) might as well be a homeless schizophrenic that told him reincarnation was possible.

If I play with a notion and I can't find any reputable evidence to support it, I'm not going to believe in it at all.
edit on 10/7/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


I agree that you should never take anything at face value, but like you said, reincarnation is unverifiable at the moment so it does take a little guess work to come to that conclusion.

In my opinion reincarnation makes the most sense because everything works in cycles, why would life be any different? Sometimes you have to go with your gut feeling and mine is on reincarnation.



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj
 


I agree that you should never take anything at face value, but like you said, reincarnation is unverifiable at the moment so it does take a little guess work to come to that conclusion.

In my opinion reincarnation makes the most sense because everything works in cycles, why would life be any different? Sometimes you have to go with your gut feeling and mine is on reincarnation.


The cycle is not with our consciousness, but with our decaying flesh. It's all about energy transforming from one form to another.



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




Here we basically have Jesus telling Nicodemus "not to worry about being born again"? Is it possible he said this because he meant everyone will be born again, and again, and again... until they are perfected?


I don't believe so.

Let's look at those verses again...

John 3:9-12

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus asks Nicodemus, "art thou a master of Israel, and knowest NOT these things?

Notice in verse 11 how Jesus tells Nicodemus "ye receive not our witness".

Basically, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that even though he's supposed to be a master, he doesn't understand what Jesus is talking about because he has not received "our witness" (Holy Spirit). That's why he tells him to "marvel not", because he already knows that Nicodemus doesn't "get it" (because he was born of the flesh).

Jesus explains this to Nicodemus in John 3:8

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus is telling Nicodemus that the Holy Spirit is like the wind. Unless you're born of the "Spirit", you're not going to hear it, just like Nicodemus doesn't hear or understand what Jesus is saying.

John 3:6

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, had Nicodemus been born of the Spirit, he would have understood what Jesus was really talking about. Which was...

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Here's a helpful article on what "The Witness of the Spirit" is.

utmost.org...

Being born again is about the witnessing of the Spirit.

In closing, I'll leave this...

John 3:27-29

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 



And then ALL of your references came from the bible. ONE book!


Whats your point?

By your logic only christians are allowed to read the bible?


Sure, it's fun to play with such ideas, but to actually believe in supernatural resurrections or reincarnations, or anything that has ZERO scientific evidence is just pure folly.


Science isn't the end all be all of knowledge...


You know what we need? We need to be able to take a brain from a recently dead person, freeze it, and then have the technology to bring it back into consciousness a few months later and see what this person has to say about being dead (of course we'd need to find a way to communicate with the brain). THEN maybe these silly ideas will finally be put to rest.


I suppose we would have to assume said spirit would want to return to his/her body after he died...

IF you went to a place where there is no pain, no suffering... no need for money or material possessions, nothing but love from everyone and everything you can see... and a feeling of HOME unlike anything you've experienced in life... would you want to come back to this place?


Sure, but aren't there any other texts he can also use to further validate his beliefs? What is one source when dealing with such unverifiable notions?

Having one source (and a non-scientific one at that) might as well be a homeless schizophrenic that told him reincarnation was possible.

If I play with a notion and I can't find any reputable evidence to support it, I'm not going to believe in it at all.


IF i give you so called "proof" from a spiritual perspective, and you don't believe the spirit exists... Is there a point in giving you references?

Every religion in existance is based on one thing.... Life after death... Even the spirit

Now would you like a list of the existing religions that believe in reincarnation... Or can you just google it and save me some time?

edit on 8-10-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


Excellent interpretation, but again that is from a christian POV... There is more then one meaning to much of what Jesus said. Actually most of his words have many layers of meaning, even a deeper understanding so to speak. A star for you



Being born again is about the witnessing of the Spirit.


Did you miss this part?


The truth, the life, and the way... to understanding the true God lies within his son...

The example given for all... and the keys to the realization of the spirit within...





John 3:27-29

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


Similar to the verse i offered from Job...

How do you explain that passage?

Again if no man goes to heaven unless he's already been there, doesn't that explain "pre-existance" and leave open the possiblity that reincarnation might exist?




posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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Akragon, my friend, you know I agree with you. S/F

@ jiggerg, yes, there IS scientifically compiled and very convincing evidence of reincarnation. There are many books on the subject; and video docs also. If you'd like links to them, let me know. Dr Ian Stevenson has published many works on the subject. He did very meticulous work studying claims of young children who remembered past lives, and was able to compile case studies that could NOT have been faked.

Check it out.



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon

I suppose we would have to assume said spirit would want to return to his/her body after he died...

IF you went to a place where there is no pain, no suffering... no need for money or material possessions, nothing but love from everyone and everything you can see... and a feeling of HOME unlike anything you've experienced in life... would you want to come back to this place?



Think hard on this, Ak. You are human. As a human, how much sweetness can you possibly stand? Could you walk around with nothing but love and cheer and good tidings for all in your heart? Every minute of every day of every week of every year of every decade of your entire life?

I'll answer it for you. NO WAY! We humans are not designed that way. We want to get down and dirty sometimes. We want to compete. We want to relish in the moment that a bad guy gets his due.

If the afterlife strips away all the supposed negative attributes, then we are no longer human. If we become no longer human then what's the point of THIS existence?

IF there is life after death - if I am forced to live forever and ever (YUCK!) - I'd still want to be me. Not some hippie-type flower child wishing everyone a Happy Eternity.



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





IF i give you so called "proof" from a spiritual perspective, and you don't believe the spirit exists... Is there a point in giving you references? Every religion in existance is based on one thing.... Life after death... Even the spirit Now would you like a list of the existing religions that believe in reincarnation... Or can you just google it and save me some time?


No need. All the references would originate from the same single source. You tell me the spirit exists because someone told you it does, and his reference would be some bible.

If you tell me that 2+2=4, you can show me a math book, but you can also take two oranges and two oranges to show me four oranges. You can give me four dollars and take two back to leave me with two dollars, to prove your math is verified when you work it backwards.

All references of reincarnation are from either a book that someone wrote or that someone read and told you about it. In both cases reincarnation cannot be substantiated.

What you are saying is, "I don't care that there's no proof of reincarnation, darn it, I'm just gonna pretend that it's true and I'm gonna believe it."

But you would consider someone either mentally disturbed or very childish if he said to you, "I don't care that there's no proof of unicorns, darn it, I'm just gonna pretend that it's true and I'm gonna believe it."



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 



Think hard on this, Ak. You are human. As a human, how much sweetness can you possibly stand?


We are body and spirit my friend... Not just human... We are "spirits" even part of the divine, on a "human" journey for the purposes of learning...

Don't believe me? Thats ok


Let me ask though, have you read any of my threads?

Have you read this maybe?

www.abovetopsecret.com... Take a look it might amuse you

Do you honestly believe i haven't "thought hard" about what i write?



Could you walk around with nothing but love and cheer and good tidings for all in your heart? Every minute of every day of every week of every year of every decade of your entire life?

I'll answer it for you. NO WAY


I don't ever recall stating that i was perfect... Im here to learn just like everyone else... Otherwise i wouldn't be here


But im trying...


We humans are not designed that way. We want to get down and dirty sometimes. We want to compete.


Fer sure....


We want to relish in the moment that a bad guy gets his due.


I do not...

I feel sorry for said bad guy... its unfortunate when someone doesn't learn from his mistakes and his Karma eventually kicks him in the ass



If the afterlife strips away all the supposed negative attributes, then we are no longer human.


Congrats, you just found some truth.... How'd that feel?


If we become no longer human then what's the point of THIS existence?


I believe i've already given you that answer... but no one said you have to accept it...


IF there is life after death - if I am forced to live forever and ever (YUCK!) - I'd still want to be me. Not some hippie-type flower child wishing everyone a Happy Eternity.



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I look at Job 1:21 the same way I look at Genesis 3:19, Psalm 49:17 and 1 Timothy 6:7.

Job 1:21

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Genesis 3:19

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

1 Timothy 6:7

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

I don't personally look at it from a reincarnation point of view.



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Akragon
 





IF i give you so called "proof" from a spiritual perspective, and you don't believe the spirit exists... Is there a point in giving you references? Every religion in existance is based on one thing.... Life after death... Even the spirit Now would you like a list of the existing religions that believe in reincarnation... Or can you just google it and save me some time?


No need. All the references would originate from the same single source. You tell me the spirit exists because someone told you it does, and his reference would be some bible.



Isn't that what i said... its pointless to show people things who have preconcieved notions of the subject.

Thats called an arguement...


If you tell me that 2+2=4, you can show me a math book, but you can also take two oranges and two oranges to show me four oranges. You can give me four dollars and take two back to leave me with two dollars, to prove your math is verified when you work it backwards.


I hate math...



All references of reincarnation are from either a book that someone wrote or that someone read and told you about it. In both cases reincarnation cannot be substantiated.


So why are you posting in a religion forum? Just to point out that science doesn't always agree with religion?

Isn't that a bit obvious?



What you are saying is, "I don't care that there's no proof of reincarnation, darn it, I'm just gonna pretend that it's true and I'm gonna believe it."


No... what im saying is i don't care if you or anyone else believes in it. It has been a belief in religious and spiritual circles for millenia.

I believe it exists, and theres plenty of scriptural proof to back that from almost any religion aside from Christianity for the most part.



But you would consider someone either mentally disturbed or very childish if he said to you, "I don't care that there's no proof of unicorns, darn it, I'm just gonna pretend that it's true and I'm gonna believe it."



I would consider it rude to mock someones beliefs regardless of how silly they might seem...

You seem to consider anything "spritual" to be imagination, or comming from the mind of a disturbed individual...

But considering 80% of the world believes in something... You're basically saying almost everyone is mad but yourself....

Ego much?

edit on 8-10-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 



I look at Job 1:21 the same way I look at Genesis 3:19, Psalm 49:17 and 1 Timothy 6:7.

Job 1:21

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.


How does one return to their mothers womb?


Genesis 3:19

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


Matthew 6:25
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?


1 Timothy 6:7

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

I don't personally look at it from a reincarnation point of view.


On your way out, do you plan on stopping by "heaven"?

IF so... that means you've already been there... Correct?

SO if someone came from heaven, and doesn't learn what they're here to learn.... do they go to hell after they die?


edit on 8-10-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)





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