Who are you: Part 4: Who Am I?

YOU are not your body... Sit and think for a minute... IF you were your body, wouldn't you have control over that body? Can you stop and start your internal processes? Of course not, your body works independently, and in maintianed with your assistance, without which your body slowly breaks down.

All your body's feelings and reactions lead back to a spot in your head... sound waves also are acknowledged within, so is sight/smell... so is pain. Physical pain comes from damage to the body which can be ignored... While emotional pain is something entirely different, it occurs as an extremely negative vibration, but is felt in the body even though no actual damage as been inflicted.

I believe the realization of the soul/spirit is a very important issue for all of us to learn.... Some will consider this nonsence... those that do are free to do so... For others seeking understanding and truth, and those with an open mind...

This is for you... Take it as you will


THE PRECISE METHOD FOR LIBERATION

Dadashri: What is your name?

Questioner: My name is Chandulal.

Dadashri: Are you really Chandulal?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Chandulal is your name. Is Chandulal not your name? Are you yourself Chandulal or is your name Chandulal?

Questioner: It is my name.

Dadashri: Then who are you? If Chandulal is your name then who are you? Are you and your name not separate? If you are separate from your name, then who are you? Do you understand what I am trying to say? If you say, "These are my eye-glasses," then you and the glasses are separate, right? Similarly, do you not feel that you are separate from your name? In the same token there is nothing wrong with naming a shop ‘General Traders’. If we were to call out to the shop owner, "Hey! General Traders ...come here!” he would reply, "My name is Jayantilal, General Traders is the name of my shop". The owner, the shop and the merchandise inside the shop, are all separate entities. What do you think?

Questioner: That makes sense.

Dadashri: People insist, “No, I am Chandulal”. That means, ‘I am the owner of the shop and I am also the sign on the shop.’ ‘Chandulal’ is just a means for identification. From your very childhood, people kept calling you ‘Chandu’ and you have come to believe, ‘I am Chandu’. You believe this name to be you. In reality you are not that, but you insist that you are Chandulal because everyone tells you so. Since you do not know who you really are, you believe yourself to be the name that you have been given. This has had a very powerful psychological effect on you. This effect is so deeply ingrained within you, that you believe that you are Chandulal. This belief is wrong. As a result of this wrong belief, you have experienced countless lives ‘sleeping with your eyes open’.

WHO AM I?
Dadashri: Will you not have to investigate who you really are? How long can you go on being in the dark unaware of your Self? Do you not think it is ignorance to not investigate your true identity? Until you realize who you really are, everything proves to be wrong and incorrect.

Even before you purchased this watch, did you not inquire about its make, quality, price, warranty, etc.? Then, is it not ironic that you have not made inquires about your own Self yet? Who are you? You have no knowledge about your true identity, where you come from and where you are. You know none of these things and even without knowing the answer to this one vital question, Who am I?; you complicate your life further by actively participating in this relative world. In this state of ignorance you further complicate your life by getting married, having a family, etc, etc. This is how confusion and puzzles arise in the relative world.

Even when you fall asleep at night, you do so as Chandulal. All night long this wrong belief reinforces itself, becoming stronger and stronger. Only when you realize the answer to ‘Who am I?’ does your wrong belief stop. It is because of this wrong belief; that you have been wandering from one life to another. You do not know your true identity and furthermore you impress upon yourself the belief of that which you are not. You have imposed this wrong belief on your Real Self. Not only this, but you have accepted that 'I am Chandulal' and have behaved accordingly. This false accusation is a blunder. This blunder is the root cause of all suffering. This suffering is in the form of inner restlessness, misery and discontent. At the moment, you have so many worries because of your belief that ‘I am Chandulal’. This false imposition on the Self, is ignorance and brings forth suffering.

(2) BELIEFS: WRONG AND RIGHT
SO MANY WRONG BELIEFS

Dadashri: The belief that ‘I am Chandulal’, does not go, even in your sleep. And when you get married, people tell you, “You are this woman's husband.” So, you accept the role of a husband, and act like one. After that, through repetition, you keep reinforcing the belief of being a husband. Is anyone a husband forever? If you get a divorce will you still be her husband? All these wrong beliefs have become deeply ingrained within you. The first wrong belief is that 'I am Chandulal'. ‘I am this woman's husband’, is the second wrong belief. ‘I am a Hindu’, is the third wrong belief. ‘I am a lawyer’, is the fourth wrong belief. ‘I am this boy's father’, is the fifth wrong belief. ‘I am an uncle’, is the sixth wrong belief. ‘I am fair-skinned’, is the seventh wrong belief. ‘I am forty-five years old’, is the eighth wrong belief. ‘I am a businessman’, is also a wrong belief. If you say that “I am a taxpayer”, then that is yet, another wrong belief. How many such wrong beliefs do you have?

Questioner: Too many wrong beliefs.

Dadashri: Wherever you super-impose ‘I’, where ‘I’ does not belong, that is a wrong belief. You have to get rid of all these wrong beliefs. How can you be happy with so many wrong beliefs? Now tell me. What kinds of beliefs make a man happy?

Questioner: The person who does not have any beliefs, is happy.

Dadashri: No, one cannot live without beliefs. But what you need is the right belief.

Questioner: Is it possible to be without any beliefs?

Dadashri: Suppose we want to go from Los Angeles to San Francisco. Instead we take the road going to San Diego. Then do we not have to back track from San Diego to Los Angeles (our original place)? Likewise, it is important to keep this right belief in order to come back to our original place. Once you get rid of the wrong beliefs and keep the right belief for a while, you will arrive at your original place, after which there will no longer be a need to keep any beliefs. Then your work is done. Now, how will you get rid of all these wrong beliefs?

Questioner: I don't know. I need your guidance for that.

reluctant-messenger.com...

Part I
Part II
Part III

That's a very interesting read but a lot to absorb. I think I might have to read it a few times to really grasp the ideas presented.

reply to post by mark1167


What else do we have but time...

Take all the time you need to understand it...

Its worth the time you take... at least.

When he asked, "who are you?" he could have said his mind....

He is not his name...

He is not his reputation...

And he is only a part of his body in his mind/brain...

reply to post by Akragon

Really enjoyed that OP, gonna go back and read it again though, bit complex for my simple mind, or is it MY simple mind?? lol

I'll come across an old post of mine, and cringe, "Oh god, what did she (me) say, and how so, to embarrass me for all eternity! Like the poster is not really me. But a wayward kid. I have done things in my life which I just can't believe. Join the military, get involved with men, that leaves me asking myself years later, "Wwwwwhat were you thinking???" Like a higher wiser me is at odds with a delinquent. This is disturbing to me.

Originally posted by arpgme
When he asked, "who are you?" he could have said his mind....

He is not his name...

He is not his reputation...

And he is only a part of his body in his mind/brain...

we are not just our minds though,,,,, because if we were only our minds we wouldnt be able to be what we are....

we are the culmination of everything we are and do, the whole scope of "being" a process,,,,, so i think we are our reputation,, because our reputation is what we do with ourselves,,,, and what we do withour selves determines our self,,, what our self is and can do......... we are born,,,,, and our lives are the expression of what we can do and be... you can seperate it and say,,,, we are a whole comprised of parts,,,, and this part the mind is the driver of the whole machine,,, but the mind,, the you,,, depends on the whole to be....



we are many different things and we can describe these things and label them different ways but how do we know when we are accurately and finally understanding exactly......

when saying what is the sun.......... we can use things to describe what it does,,,,,, we can label its actions,,, and characteristics,,,,, the material and parts its made up from,,,,,, we can describe its process in different ways,,,, giving light,, heat,,, radiation,,,, it may do many different things,,,,, but we still dont know exactly,, who the sun is........

so are you the manner in which you think,,,,, the conversations you have with yourself your entire life which creates your will to live and create life,,, to create your personality,,, which would be you every time and for eternity..... could you be you in a different way,, in a different life form, in another planet,, is the only way to be a conscious individual "I" to be what we know as living beings....... do other animals have this same realization of self,, it is comfortable being yourself, you are used to your ways, and you have managed your self your whole life,, you are responsible for your self,, imagine having to base yourself off of everything else, or how everyone else thinks,,, which is exactly what happens,,,, our "self" is a conglomeration of whats possible to experience from our perspective on earth,,, we take from nature and fill ourselves with time,,, compartmentalize this time into desirees and emotions, and talents and skills, and likes and dislikes,,,,

reply to post by Akragon


I can't help but feel like this is balderdash.

When you relinquish responsibility for yourself, your actions, and your ego-persona, than you are no longer human. In fact, you are no longer moral, or ethical, or even "living," as you become but an empty husk of human flesh through which you believe a higher, more pure state of being might permeate. That is what these theories espouse to teach: how to remove yourself from connectivity with your actions and experiences.

Someone who relinquishes their connection to the "I" and the "My" detaches from motivation and desire entirely. This means that any action taken by these individuals is a farce, a lie. To eat, to breathe, to speak, to think: all of them ultimately trace their nature back to desire and ego, which motivates all such activity. A completely stilled mind will not think anything, and a completely stilled body will not require anything; therefore, any teacher who teaches a theory on non-egoism is a sophist. To teach these types of spiritual avenues, is to acknowledge that the "I" and the "My" exists, which is hypocritical, since the whole goal of the teaching is to prove that "I" and "My" do not exist.

I am sure to some it is fulfilling to think they are learning to detach from their ego. However, there are those of us who understand that learning to detach is really only bringing to light another level of attachment in-and-of itself.

I'm sorry. I enjoyed the read (as I love Eastern thought), but I just see too many flaws in the Teacher to believe they've actually touched on the state and purity they're claiming. Good read none-the-less.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Yes... detachment from the physical creates attachment to the spiritual...

You can not relinquish responsibility for yourself, or your actions... though one can attempt to live causing as little harm as possible

This idea can help one seperate the spiritual from the physical... Attachment to the physical creates need for the physical, but attachment to the spiritual creates the need to help others, since we are all a part of the same substance.

Alot of these "spiritual questioning" gurus and talks is very good practice for the mind BUT its totally useless as ultimately nobody will EVER, EVER find out the answer to those questions.
As to assume that someone will find the answer by asking such question, that is to assume that one is smarter or if not just as smart as the creator. That is if you believe in a creator.
If you don't believe in a creator, even better, stop asking yourself such questions for too long, just examine them and thats it...

reply to post by Akragon

detachment from the physical creates attachment to the spiritual

Exactly. Further, it is only the thoughts and beliefs (driven by maaya) which tell us that spiritual attachments are more pure than physical attachments. Take this as an example:

Prayer derives from an attachment to the spiritual. Someone who prays, whether to God, or Brahma, or Odin, or Ra, is doing so out of a completely spiritual standpoint. Let's say they they pray for starving and sick children in run-down countries. By the teachings of this post, this is a spiritual, benevolent practice. Additionally, a group like The Salvation Army, or Invisible Children, takes the opposite road. They go in with agendas and desires; bringing food, clothing, medicine, financial aid, schools and education, and so much more. Their motivations are entirely physical, but still benevolent.

By the teachings of this post, the prayer is the more noble and beneficent aspect; while the efforts of assistance groups are maaya, and therefore lies and untruths. I just cannot agree with that. Attachment to physical things has important. To discard and ignore that makes one dangerous, unethical, and immoral at some level. No matter how much they try to adhere to the Golden Rule.

I would always choose funding a child, and supporting assistance groups, over praying in a Church, or meditating on world-wide wellness.

Attachment to the physical creates need for the physical, but attachment to the spiritual creates the need to help others

Both of these facets are part of the "I/My" concept. All actions are driven by desire, or a want for something. There is no truly selfless and unconditional action which can be undertaken. Even an attempt to detach from the ego is, at it's core, an ego-based action. The false belief that we need to be apart from ourselves is based on desire.

Also, the spiritual need to help others is still an impulse driven by maaya. No matter how pure and unconditional one may think they are, they are willingly hurting others, and are willingly producing the actions they take because of an ultimate, unbreakable, attachment to themselves, the "I/My."

For instance, one who detaches from their body is discarding all of Christian teachings willingly, meaning: based on ego. Jesus never taught anything about separing the self from the ego. In fact, he taught that the world belonged to man, and was ours to reign over. Therefore, practicing this spiritual path, requires having a desire to not practice the path taught by Jesus.

However, to truly disconnect from all maaya would require you to somehow simultaneously agree with, practice, disagree with, and not practice every spiritual, political, economic, and biological philosophy all at the same time.

This is, obviously, impossible.

It is, likewise, impossible to completely and wholly detach from the ego-persona, "I/My."

~ Wandering Scribe

I am is the one thing that has no label.
It can not be named.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

By the teachings of this post, the prayer is the more noble and beneficent aspect; while the efforts of assistance groups are maaya, and therefore lies and untruths.

I don't recall anything like that being called "lies or untruths" in that artical... Perhaps you might quote that part?

I just cannot agree with that. Attachment to physical things has important. To discard and ignore that makes one dangerous, unethical, and immoral at some level. No matter how much they try to adhere to the Golden Rule.

I don't believe it said to Discard or ignore the physical... more to recognize it as it is. One can not "adhear" to the golden rule if they "ignore" their fellow human beings.

Both of these facets are part of the "I/My" concept. All actions are driven by desire, or a want for something. There is no truly selfless and unconditional action which can be undertaken.

I believe you are incorrect... Selflessness is not easy but it is attainable... but it takes practice.

Even an attempt to detach from the ego is, at it's core, an ego-based action. The false belief that we need to be apart from ourselves is based on desire.

Again im not trying to push that we need to be "appart" from ourselves... more to recognize the divine within...

Remember Jesus said he was ONE with God... This explains that idea...

When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

Also, the spiritual need to help others is still an impulse driven by maaya. No matter how pure and unconditional one may think they are, they are willingly hurting others, and are willingly producing the actions they take because of an ultimate, unbreakable, attachment to themselves, the "I/My."

Helping others hurts them? Im sorry i don't agree with your logic...

For instance, one who detaches from their body is discarding all of Christian teachings willingly, meaning: based on ego. Jesus never taught anything about separing the self from the ego. In fact, he taught that the world belonged to man, and was ours to reign over. Therefore, practicing this spiritual path, requires having a desire to not practice the path taught by Jesus.

Again i don't agree with your logic... This is a way to recognize the spirit within... This is not "the path" that Jesus taught... Jesus taught the path for the physical man to be spiritual... This is more of a way to recognize that same spirit within.... Once that is recognized, the lessons of Jesus become obvious... So i believe you are incorrect....

And besides that, no one in this time takes the path of the buddha... the world is one big distraction... And Buddhas path has become unattainable by our standards. Though his lessons still have spiritual value

Im really suprised this thread hasnt been more popular, i think the OP did a grand job.

On to my point, i agree that I am not my body, however, as mentioned by a previous poster, i am having difficuly with the fact that the person i am , OR this entity i am who exists, is thinking and feeling the thinsg that i do because of the experiences that i have had,, so stripped of the personality traits due to experience, wouldnt the real me, the "soul"me be unrecognisible to myself, Hmm, thats wrong tho, that suggests a duality, Or maybe we take all our life experiences on with us, and it becomes part of who we are.

WHo is the real me? who was i before i became what i am at this moment.

Oh dear my brain is hurting, i dont usually go this deep in a post, so sorry if you all think its a load of b*****cks.

I need a drink..

Originally posted by thedoctorswife
Im really suprised this thread hasnt been more popular, i think the OP did a grand job.

On to my point, i agree that I am not my body, however, as mentioned by a previous poster, i am having difficuly with the fact that the person i am , OR this entity i am who exists, is thinking and feeling the thinsg that i do because of the experiences that i have had,, so stripped of the personality traits due to experience, wouldnt the real me, the "soul"me be unrecognisible to myself, Hmm, thats wrong tho, that suggests a duality, Or maybe we take all our life experiences on with us, and it becomes part of who we are.

WHo is the real me? who was i before i became what i am at this moment.

Oh dear my brain is hurting, i dont usually go this deep in a post, so sorry if you all think its a load of b*****cks.

I need a drink..

These are the questions we all ask my dear... everything you are, your personality, your outlook on life, your morals and values are a result of your experience in this life... but what is the essence of the one that has went through these experiences?

Science can not explain how life comes to be... We can not create life, even in its simplest form. We also can't create "intelligence"... or consciousness...

So it always comes down to the original question...

Who/what AM I?

reply to post by Akragon

These are the questions we all ask my dear...

Nice, thought-provoking thread, Ak. I don't know how I missed it.

That said, you are so right when you say that these are the questions we all ask. And, they are the wrong questions for this time. Maybe it's because this life has gotten so complicated that we don't even bother finding out about our place here on earth. We skip over understanding the NOW in the hopes of grabbing something else - anything else.

Imagine a man waking up in a place totally foreign to him. Is his first question going to be about the stars, or gods and angels? No. After accepting that he can't get back to his own reality he'll want to know where he is, how he can fit in, and what the rules are in this new realm. This is what we AREN'T doing here.

We are HERE now. If we spent some time (years) learning what it means to be a human, to live as a human, to find our productive role in our tribe (which is now worldwide), then we can fix all of the wrongs HERE. What's the point of being HERE if we don't participate in the earthly concerns of each day?

I could be a spirit. I could be a part of a universal consciousness. My body could be made of pure energy. But, right now, I AM human. I AM an earthling. I AM a worker, a father, an American, a tax payer...

Sincerely,

I AM Jiggerj

BEAUTIFUL!!!! i kind of believe this. due to the fact, from the moment we are born and named we are made to believe we are that person, when in reality we could be some other person with someother name..... lol i hope this makes sense. it was a lot better in my mind are his mind.

reply to post by dman456


Glad you enjoyed my thread...

There are 4 more parts... just in case you didn't know

Have fun out there eh...

Who am I?

I Am Jack's Complete Lack of Surprise...

When you relinquish responsibility for yourself, your actions, and your ego-persona, than you are no longer human. In fact, you are no longer moral, or ethical, or even "living," as you become but an empty husk of human flesh through which you believe a higher, more pure state of being might permeate. That is what these theories espouse to teach: how to remove yourself from connectivity with your actions and experiences.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


... non-human, immoral, unethical, non-living empty husks of human flesh? Wow.

No true teacher would ever suggest a person relinquish their responsibilities for the self, or their actions. It is the exact opposite. What you've just described, is the state of humankind TODAY. Ego centric people who take no responsibility for their lives, blame the ills of their existence on others, Government or God. The purpose of waking up, is to turn that around.