The objection i have is you telling me what God i worship
Originally posted by WarminIndy
Nope, got it from a pro-Muslim website. I gave the link, so go look at it. I could not even make that up if I tried. But here is the link again...
Muttaqun Online
When you want to know the most about the Quran, you either read it for yourself (which I have) or you read it from someone who has. If you have problems with these Muslims saying this, then go contact the site and inform them of their error. Otherwise, don't complain to us that these people said it.
Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy
The objection i have is you telling me what God i worship or even going and assuming that all the muslims are pagans? So i had to bring to notice that nobody can reach up to catholic church in the acceptance of paganism, they went to the lengths of erasing a commandment to accomodate statues to please their roman masters and crowds.
.
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and about your accusations regarding Islam and Muhammad(pbuh) i can tell you, i agree 100% with Umar(ra)
and the prophet dint worship alongside pagans after having control of makkah and to this day no pagans are allowed near Kabah.
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And pointing at something and saying "Allah hu Akbar"(Allah is greater/greatest) doesnt make that thing god, pointing at it was a symbolic act of touching from a distance. And a muslim can say "Allah hu Akbar" and even bow down in front of a tree while praying. And only a pagan would assume that he is worshipping the tree or calling it god.
Bukhari V2, B26, #689 (V1, B8, No 365): Narrated Abu Huraira: “In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'”
Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy
Originally posted by WarminIndy
Nope, got it from a pro-Muslim website. I gave the link, so go look at it. I could not even make that up if I tried. But here is the link again...
Muttaqun Online
When you want to know the most about the Quran, you either read it for yourself (which I have) or you read it from someone who has. If you have problems with these Muslims saying this, then go contact the site and inform them of their error. Otherwise, don't complain to us that these people said it.
Again with this same line. Who says it is a pro-muslim website? I know nothing about it. I should just accept it because you say so? Because IT says so? Who made them experts? I didn't. They didn't. There doesn't even appear to be any information on who exactly the group is or what qualifications they have.
Even if it is a "pro-muslim website", it has been found wrong on 2 occasions now, yet you still use it. You say you've read the Quran. If you have, then why do you need to use this website? Why can't you simply reference what you are talking about directly?
And sorry, if you are the one who keeps bringing up incorrect information, it doesn't matter where you get it from. Since we are talking and discussing on these ATS forums, my interaction is with YOU, not with the website.
It seems very disingenuous to have a line of argument of "Hahaha...Islam is so wrong, look what wrong things the Quran says" and then when you get told that the Quran says no such thing, you respond with "Hey, I read it on a website, so it must be true!"
MOL is comprised of Muslims across the globe whose goals are not limited to, but include the following: to spread daw'ah,to encourage piety,to provide a halal, online gathering place,and to provide resources for Islamic research and study. Our purpose is not to impress anyone, appease anyone, or to bring attention to ourselves. Our soul purpose, insha'Allah, is for the sake of Allah, subhana wa ta'ala. We pray that Allah, subhana wa ta'ala, will be pleased with our actions and direct us away from error and bid'a (innovation in religion), keeping us upon the sirataal mustaqeem (path [that is] straight). 'Ameen.
Originally posted by WarminIndy
Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy
The objection i have is you telling me what God i worship or even going and assuming that all the muslims are pagans? So i had to bring to notice that nobody can reach up to catholic church in the acceptance of paganism, they went to the lengths of erasing a commandment to accomodate statues to please their roman masters and crowds.
.
.
and about your accusations regarding Islam and Muhammad(pbuh) i can tell you, i agree 100% with Umar(ra)
and the prophet dint worship alongside pagans after having control of makkah and to this day no pagans are allowed near Kabah.
.
And pointing at something and saying "Allah hu Akbar"(Allah is greater/greatest) doesnt make that thing god, pointing at it was a symbolic act of touching from a distance. And a muslim can say "Allah hu Akbar" and even bow down in front of a tree while praying. And only a pagan would assume that he is worshipping the tree or calling it god.
And the assumption again is that I am Catholic, which I am not. By the very act of bowing down is worship. Would you like the Hadith on Mohammed worshiping with the pagans in Mecca? OK here it is....
Bukhari V2, B26, #689 (V1, B8, No 365): Narrated Abu Huraira: “In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'”
Mohammed worshiped with pagans. Abu Bakr was the one who who said no pagans were allowed there. Now who is this Abu Bakr? The father of Aisha and the first caliph who fought with Ali in the Battle of the Camels.
Are you still sure 100%?
Now as far as that goes about Canaanites and the Hebrews, yes at different time the Hebrews did fall into idol worship, the Bible says they did. No one is disputing this fact. Yes, Suleiman did have pagan wives, which he was commanded not to, but did anyway and was led away by them. Elijah stood up to the 400 prophets of Ba'al and God consumed his sacrifice. This is not a new thing, we all know this happened.
Now the accusations you have made against the Roman Catholic faith, yes, paganism has influenced that as well, but again I am not Catholic as I belong to the original Christian faith founded on the testimony of Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God of which over 300 OT prophecies came to pass about Him.
The Book of Isaiah is exactly the same as it was written. And because the Jews rejected Jesus does not mean they always will, Bible prophecy is very clear that one day they will accept Him. About the prophecy of Jesus from Isaiah "Unto us a son is born, unto us a son is given, and He shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. And upon His shoulders shall be His government and His government shall have no end". Unto whom? Who was the son born to? Isaiah was a Jewish prophet.
When you discuss a religion, you must always go back to the author of that religion. Mohammed was the author of Islam, therefore it is his words and deeds we have to look at. If you dislike the Quranic verses and Hadiths, take that up with Islamic scholars who provided the information. If I had posted only nice verses and hadiths, then you would have been happy because that is the whitewashed version the west has been given. So why dispute the bad things if they come from the same Quran and Hadiths? I am not the writer of either one and neither are you. So take the good and the bad, every Christian and Jew accepts that prophets were not always righteous or even right. They were not always good and they sinned. We accept that, so why can't you apply the same thing to yours? Oh yes, because yours said to overlook his indiscretions.
It seems very disingenuous to have a line of argument of "Hahaha...Islam is so wrong, look what wrong things the Quran says" and then when you get told that the Quran says no such thing, you respond with "Hey, I read it on a website, so it must be true!"
Originally posted by WarminIndy
Show me the two occasions that was wrong. Just because you and another guy says it is wrong and yet neither of you are Islamic scholars? That is what Muslims always say when a Quranic verse or Hadith is shown that disparage Mohammed. So my question to you is this.....if those verses disparage Mohammed, then why are they allowed to remain?
Originally posted by WarminIndy
It was not a Christian or Jew who made that website, those were Muslims of the Islamic faith. If you dislike that information, go to them and tell them they are wrong, don't tell me because I am not the one who made the website.
Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy
Originally posted by WarminIndy
Show me the two occasions that was wrong. Just because you and another guy says it is wrong and yet neither of you are Islamic scholars? That is what Muslims always say when a Quranic verse or Hadith is shown that disparage Mohammed. So my question to you is this.....if those verses disparage Mohammed, then why are they allowed to remain?
I did. The first time was when you claimed (yes, you, you may have linked to a website that was making the claim, but you were supporting them, and I am talking to YOU here, not a website) that the Quran said/implied Adam and Moses were alive at the same time. The hilarious thing here was that you provided verse numbers as reference, but if you went to those verses, you'd see no mention of this claim.
The second case was right here, where you claim that the Quran says that the Angel Michael "brings rain". This too is objectively false, and very easy to disprove. Go to any quran translation website. Two I use are:
www.islamawakened.com...
www.cmje.org...
And do a search for "Michael" or even "Mikha'il". You will only find one reference, which is the one I mentioned in the post where I addressed this point of yours. And that reference has nothing to do with bringing rain.
Neither of these two supposed verses disparage Muhammad in any way, they just happen to be totally, provably, objectively WRONG. They don't exist.
Originally posted by WarminIndy
It was not a Christian or Jew who made that website, those were Muslims of the Islamic faith. If you dislike that information, go to them and tell them they are wrong, don't tell me because I am not the one who made the website.
You didn't make the website, but you keep bringing it up as "proof" of various points. So yeah, I will tell you you are wrong if you keep bringing up wrong points. I'm not debating with the website. I'm in no contact with the website at all. I am talking to YOU. The "endpoint" source is very easily accessible. The Quran. Available online for extensive word-by-word, translation-by-translation searching. Since you say you've read the Quran already, you can easily do a "That point was in that general area", and then search for it there. IF you've read the Quran.
As skorpion says, I could bring up several dozen "Christian" websites (and not just from the controversial sects) that hold views that you might disagree with ("Jesus is not God" "Jesus is God" "Jesus is the son of God" "Salvation can only be attained through faith" "Salvation requires works" "Physical baptism is necessary" "Physical baptism is not necessary" "Divorce is permitted" "Divorce is not permitted" etc.), the ultimate proof doesn't lie with them, it lies with the scripture itself.edit on 5-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by logical7
Originally posted by WarminIndy
Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy
why do you assume that whatever your are telling is NEWS to me?
and i am not assuming that you are chatholic, but i am assuming that you believe God has a son.
the makkans were performing hajj, long before Muhammad(pbuh) actually it was started by Abraham(pbuh) but they had introduced paganism in it, moving naked etc,in short a lot of ignorance.
so after Kabah was restored with muslims, they stopped the pagans.
a verse was revealed in that effect. whats so sectacular about that?edit on 5-10-2012 by logical7 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy
Quran 9:28
O you who have believed, indeed the
polytheists are unclean, so let them
not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after
this, their [final] year. And if you fear
privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is
Knowing and Wise.
Originally posted by WarminIndy
So then we are agreed, not all Muslims agree about the Quran or the Hadiths.
Originally posted by WarminIndy
There is no archeological evidence anywhere in the world that supports Abraham being in Mecca, not even the Bible which the Quran says to believes, then says it was corrupted. And yet no evidence is ever presented of who corrupted it and when.
There is no "archeological(sic) evidence" of the existence of the Biblical Abraham at all. All we know is that the name (along with Abram) was not uncommon at the time.
And there is NO EVIDENCE of the Bible being corrupted? Are you serious? This isn't an exclusively muslim claim. There is tonnes and tonnes of scholarship on the subject. I'm sure you can find it easily enough
Not only that but they would all compliment eachother and validate eachother. OT and NT validate eachother,
Quran jews must be exterminated, OT and NT they will be redeemed.
Both OT and NT establish the identity of God, Quran? God has no name, he has a title for a name.
OT and NT his name is to be proclaimed to all the world. Quran, well you can't proclaim what was never given. Who are the people of the book?
Well, logically, when did he say that he wasn't?
Believe what feels right to you, pal. That's what it's all about, and tell anyone who tells you otherwise to get bent.
