Jesus was a "Muslim"

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So, was Jesus calling God by a title, when he was nailed to the cross?
"Eloi" sounds a whole lot similar to "Allah".

2:35

Sounds phonetically similar to what the muslims call God.

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Quran 9:28
O you who have believed, indeed the
polytheists are unclean, so let them
not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after
this, their [final] year. And if you fear
privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is
Knowing and Wise.

And that verse corresponds with what Abu Bakr said. It has already been proven by the Hadith that was Abu Bakr's words, not Mohammed's. So please, show me Mohammed's words, and not Abu Bakr's.

i guess i proved the point that i wanted to, Muhammad(pbuh) did not worship alongside pagans once makkah was under muslims, and that happened in the lifetime of the prophet.
And has it occured to you that Abu Bakr(ra) would have said it because of that verse and not that what he said became a verse?
Ofcourse you are free to assume whatever makes you feel better.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If I want a christian opinion, which group do I ask? The catholics? the protestants? Which one?

Again, whatever seems right to you. I was a Protestant for several decades, but in the end, it just didn't seem right to me, so I converted to Catholicism, and that does feel right. But that's "to me", you might be different. One of the positive aspects of Catholicism (and, to be honest, it was one of the key things that led to my conversion) is that there is no "absolute" when it comes to Christ, apart from one's rejection of him.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by logical7

which Book? and why just one? There are at least three, OT,NT,QURAN.

Are they not all One? If they are not, then they belong to separate gods. if they are separate, then so their respective gods are also separate. If there is only one God, then he has only one word, and if the three are separate, then at least one of them must be false, and of a false god.

If, on the other hand, they are all of one God, then they are all One Book.

edit on 2012/10/5 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

you have an idealistic concept about a holy book, i think you'l agree that even when reading them you have to maintain a standard and not take anything that voilates the Godness of God, example, making a raped woman marry the rapist, thats not Godly.
And i dont know if you have read all the three or read one and claim that others must be same if they from same God. So i'l just give you a link of a site i like for Quran at least www.tafheem.net...

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If I want a christian opinion, which group do I ask? The catholics? the protestants? Which one?

Again, whatever seems right to you. I was a Protestant for several decades, but in the end, it just didn't seem right to me, so I converted to Catholicism, and that does feel right. But that's "to me", you might be different. One of the positive aspects of Catholicism (and, to be honest, it was one of the key things that led to my conversion) is that there is no "absolute" when it comes to Christ, apart from one's rejection of him.

Really? Now i am curious, when you say no"absolute" then to what extent? and not rejecting him in what way? As god? As messiah? As prophet?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Who am I to believe?

I tried telling you, tried showing you. It ain't up to me, it's up to God. Why he gives some people this revelation of who he is and not others, is beyond me. 2 years ago when i first became a christian believer, i didn't know he was God either. I thought of him as literally God's Son, in human terms. 6 months later i asked Jesus to show him who he is and i started finding things in the OT and NT pointing at him. Maybe it's because you can't let go and entertain the possibility he is Yahweh. Jesus himself said the Torah was written about him and Moses believed in him. The Torah was about God and the history of Israel during Genesis to Moses time. There is only one person that book could be about, the Savior. God is the Savior. Jesus is the Savior. Jesus holds the name above all names, that name is Yahweh.

Isaiah 44:6

6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Both saying they are the First and the Last.

Revelation 1:10-18

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

So how is it God can be the First and the Last in Isaiah 44 and here in Revelation 1 Jesus is saying he is the First and the Last? The simplest answer is the truest one, because he is Yahweh. He reveals the Father, who is Spirit. Think "The Lord of the Rings", the ring wraiths were spirits but you could see them because of their cloaks and armor gave them a physical appearance. The physical appearence of the Father is in the Son, the Father is where the Son is, the Son reveals Him. Just like how on Mt. Sinai he picked up Moses and put him in the cleft and showed him his back, that was the Son, that was pre-incarnate Jesus.


John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

Exodus 32:34 Now therefore, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin.”

Exodus 32:34, his visitation was the day Jesus said John 9:39.

Matthew 23:29-39

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

Now you know what the last 2000 years has been about and the upcoming Jacob's Trouble.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I tried telling you, tried showing you. It ain't up to me, it's up to God. Why he gives some people this revelation of who he is and not others, is beyond me. 2 years ago when i first became a christian believer, i didn't know he was God either. I thought of him as literally God's Son, in human terms. 6 months later i asked Jesus to show him who he is and i started finding things in the OT and NT pointing at him. Maybe it's because you can't let go and entertain the possibility he is Yahweh. Jesus himself said the Torah was written about him and Moses believed in him. The Torah was about God and the history of Israel during Genesis to Moses time. There is only one person that book could be about, the Savior. God is the Savior. Jesus is the Savior. Jesus holds the name above all names, that name is Yahweh.

See, thats just the thing. Others also feel they have been given the right revelation of God. Forget about the other religions for now, and just look at Christianity. Every christian group firmly believe they have the truth and the others don't.

On a forum like ATS, its odd to discuss/debate Christianity.... because Christians are NOT homogeneous in their beliefs. Instead the beliefs vary from one individual to the other.

For example:
Some believe in a trinity. Some believe that Jesus is God Himself.
Some believe Paul was a true apostle.... others believe he was a deceiver.
Some believe the God of the OT was the God of Jesus.... others don't
And this is just broadly speaking. I'm not even getting into minor details, such as the identities of the symbols and characters in revelations...and so on.

If Christians cant even agree on basic matters, then there is a problem.

Maybe it's because you can't let go and entertain the possibility he is Yahweh.

errr.... perhaps its because the bible establishes that God and Jesus are two seperate entities?

here is just ONE example...


"Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God" -Acts 2:22.

Tell me, just how do I force myself to read that as...
Jesus, the person who was "approved".... is actually the same One who did the "approving".

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If I want a christian opinion, which group do I ask? The catholics? the protestants? Which one?

Again, whatever seems right to you. I was a Protestant for several decades, but in the end, it just didn't seem right to me, so I converted to Catholicism, and that does feel right. But that's "to me", you might be different. One of the positive aspects of Catholicism (and, to be honest, it was one of the key things that led to my conversion) is that there is no "absolute" when it comes to Christ, apart from one's rejection of him.

Really? Now i am curious, when you say no"absolute" then to what extent? and not rejecting him in what way? As god? As messiah? As prophet?

You are welcome to reject him as you see fit.

You're not assured of coming to the correct conclusion, of course, but I can't fault you for your perspective.

reply to post by adjensen


its interesting my friend
that correct conclusion is subjective.
Another thing is that i believe that there is an "absolute" truth, but again we would differ on that. But if you do agree that there is an "absolutely correct conclusion" then the opposite of it cant be true. So my question to you is, How to figure that out?

Heres a cool thing I found earlier:

English to Aramaic translator

Pronunciation:

(Eastern) AaLaH
(Western) AaLoH


Does it sound familiar? Well, thats the word Jesus used to say "God".

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


"Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God" -Acts 2:22.

Tell me, just how do I force myself to read that as...
Jesus, the person who was "approved".... is actually the same One who did the "approving".

Maybe the keyword there is "of" instead of "by"?

If we stretch that verse a little bit further than what you quoted, here's what we have:

"Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you"

What did the Old Testament say?

Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

What does Immanuel mean in Hebrew?

Immanuel (or Emmanuel or Imanu'el, Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל meaning "God is with us")

reply to post by Deetermined


The KJV says...
"Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God"... this still confirms that God and Jesus were 2 seperate entities.

Interestingly, Acts 2:22 goes on to say that God did all those miracles and wonders through Jesus.
Here is the full quote... “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Now, this is in perfect harmony with what Jesus said earlier in John 5:30


"I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Are you even aware of how the transmission of the Quran occurred? Mohammed never had the Quran in his time. What he did have was things he said to other people, what other people said he said and what other people said he did. What Mohammed did not have was the Quran.

All Mohammed had was his own recitations, but since Uthman burned a lot of other recitations, you will never know what Mohammed even really said. Allah never said to burn the other verses and neither did Mohammed.

Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."

Does the last statement of Mohammed negate the statement that you have to speak in Quraishi Arabic? And which Quran is he speaking about here? The Uthman Quran which was made 19 years after Mohammed?

Bukhuri: vol. 4, hadith 682, book 56 Narrated Ibn Mas'ud: I heard a person reciting a (Quranic) Verse in a certain way, and I had heard the Prophet reciting the same Verse in a different way. So I took him to the Prophet and informed him of that but I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face, and then he said, "BOTH OF YOU ARE CORRECT, so don't differ, for the nations before you differed, so they were destroyed."

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 509, p. 477; book 61 Narrated Zaid-bin-Thabit: Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yama-ma had been killed (i.e. a number of the prophets companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said to me, "Umar has come to me and said: `Casualties were heavy among the Qurra of the Qur'an (ie those who knew the Qur'an by heart) on the day of the battle of Yama-ma, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra on other battle fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected'. I said to Umar, `How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do?' Umar said, `By Allah, that is a good project'. Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest (persuaded me) for it and I began to realise the good idea which Umar had realised.

So if all that Mohammed had was thoughts and sayings other people wrote down. There is no way to even prove Mohammed even said any of that, because you are relying solely on what someone else said.

Notice in this last hadith...I suggest you ABU BAKR, order the Quran to be collected. Who gave the command? Not Mohemmed. What was Abu Bakr's response? Apparently, according to the hadiths, when it comes to recitation, anything goes.

Can you give me any Quranic verse that existed before Uthman? Of course you cannot. The Quran you hold so dear, was clearly a machination by a power hungry caliph. When the hadith says that Abu Bakr said it, then Abu Bakr attempted to collect it, then Abu Bakr determined what was to be in it...except that Uthman ultimately burned everything he did not want YOU to read.

So then, prove to me Mohammed said the verse you quoted.

reply to post by Deetermined

What did the Old Testament say?

Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

What does Immanuel mean in Hebrew?

Immanuel (or Emmanuel or Imanu'el, Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל meaning "God is with us")

Immanuel means "God is with us".... yes.

But its only a name. It does not mean Jesus was God who was with them, if you were trying to suggest that. All biblical names ending with -el has a meaning that has to do with God.

Consider Ishmael. His name means "God hears". That does not mean Ishmael is actually God who hears, does it?

Take other examples...
Samuel : "name of God" or "God has heard" .... Does it mean Samuel is actually God who has heard?
Ezekiel means "God will strengthen".... Does it mean Ezekiel is actually God who will strengthen?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Here's what my KJV says:

Acts 2:22

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Let's look at some more verses in John 5.

John 5:30-32

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Jesus is saying that as a man, (the human side of himself) cannot bear witness of himself alone.

John 5:36-40

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I think people need to spend more time studying what the definition of "bearing witness" and "borne witness" really means. I talked about this earlier on how it relates together between the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Now, let's look at other verses that show what Jesus says he has the power to do "of myself":

John 10:17-19

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

Why do think think this created a division among the Jews?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by babloyi

 

It seems very disingenuous to have a line of argument of "Hahaha...Islam is so wrong, look what wrong things the Quran says" and then when you get told that the Quran says no such thing, you respond with "Hey, I read it on a website, so it must be true!"

So show them what the Catholics/JWs/Mormon/ whoever else are saying on their websites and say "Hey, these guys call themselves Christians and look what they are saying".

Christians cant even agree among themselves on so many matters.... and they have the nerve to go around telling others they are wrong.

Would you think Mohammed was a Christian? Apparently people believed he was a Sabian. Have you ever considered that possibility?

Surah 2: 17 "Those who believe and those who are the Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians [Zoroastrians] and those who set up gods (with Allah)-- Allah will decide between them on the day of resurrection for God is a Witness over all things."

Surah 2:62 "Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabeans, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."

Surah 5: 69 "Those who believe and the Jews and the Sabaeans [Sabians] and this Christians— whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve."

Now I want to know here, from these Surahs...where is the command that as a Christian, I have to accept Mohammed as the prophet of allah? And apparently, these Surahs not only say that with Allah, I'm good to go as a Christian, even if I take another god with Allah, at least Allah will decide where I go. It says nothing there about any person, no person, none whatsoever, no Muslim, no Jew, no Christian, no body even has to say the shahada. So why do you have to say it?

Now I also ask this, why in some places does the Quran say Allah and some places it says God? If Allah is God, then why no consistency in that?

reply to post by WarminIndy


you will tell me how the transmission of Quran took place?
Well i do know it all.
But maybe you dont, let me tell you, as you have mentioned about the Qurra, thats how its transmitted even nw, there are millions of Qari and the line of transmission never broke. Quran actually means Recitation. The written copy is called a Mushaf. for you lets say it a dictation, maybe nw it'l make sense.
Quran is safe right from the prophet till nw in the memory of the Qurra.
And the copies that were made were authenticated by them and kept for safekeeping in event of liked death of most suddenly, but that dint happen.
Also the 7 dialects are like accent, and not different Quran. just as the same english word would be spoken differently by a british and aussie. hope that helps.

reply to post by WarminIndy


you will tell me how the transmission of Quran took place?
Well i do know it all.
But maybe you dont, let me tell you, as you have mentioned about the Qurra, thats how its transmitted even nw, there are millions of Qari and the line of transmission never broke. Quran actually means Recitation. The written copy is called a Mushaf. for you lets say it a dictation, maybe nw it'l make sense.
Quran is safe right from the prophet till nw in the memory of the Qurra.
And the copies that were made were authenticated by them and kept for safekeeping in event of liked death of most suddenly, but that dint happen.
Also the 7 dialects are like accent, and not different Quran. just as the same english word would be spoken differently by a british and aussie. hope that helps.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

What did the Old Testament say?

Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

What does Immanuel mean in Hebrew?

Immanuel (or Emmanuel or Imanu'el, Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל meaning "God is with us")

Immanuel means "God is with us".... yes.

But its only a name. It does not mean Jesus was God who was with them, if you were trying to suggest that. All biblical names ending with -el has a meaning that has to do with God.

Consider Ishmael. His name means "God hears". That does not mean Ishmael is actually God who hears, does it?

Take other examples...
Samuel : "name of God" or "God has heard" .... Does it mean Samuel is actually God who has heard?
Ezekiel means "God will strengthen".... Does it mean Ezekiel is actually God who will strengthen?

good one!!

reply to post by WarminIndy


the verse 2:17 on which you based your question is not what you posted
(2:17) They are like him who kindled a fire, and when it lit up all around him, Allah took away the light (of their perception) and left them in utter darkness where they can see nothing.
And if you are ready to accept verses that suit you,
what about the verses that tell Jesus(pbuh) as a prophet, muslim and undead? What about denying trinity?
And about the Quran containing Allah and God, its just the choice of translator, a non muslim translator would use only God. muslim may use Allah,God, god to make it easy for reader, like a verse say, "have you seen a person who has taken his desire as god" now i prefer "god" as i wouldnt like "God" as i reserve it for just the Almighty.