This blows my mind.

So I'm reading this book called "Astral Dynamics" by Robert Bruce.

In the first 30 pages he essentially describes what he sees as multiple levels of conscious perception, existing at the physical level, what he calls the "real-time" level, and at higher 'astral' levels.

On page 29-30 he describes something mind blowing. He explains that during one of his OBE when he was coming to return toward his house, as he descended through the roof and towards his body, his own body looked up at him; as the two of them met each others gaze, he all of a sudden had a slew of memories pour in from both sets of perceptions: he recalled both the actions and thoughts of his astral self, flying through the air, and the thoughts of his actual physical self, in his room, analyzing the rooms features. He calls this phenomenon the mind split effect, where the mind makes 'copies' of itself allowing it to exist at two different places simultaneously.

Now, so far this guys system is lacking overall coherence, although what he claims - OBE being experiences of ontological zones of being, is certainly believeable, however, his comprehension of it doesn't seem to be as solid as one would like it to be. But this claim - this perception he claimed to have had, how can one think of it?? It presents unbelievable problems to the logical mind, and its implications, that the conscious mind can both be acting in this world, as in a conversation between me and you, morally responsible for his every action, and yet also someone else, exploring some place, is patently absurd.

Has anyone else read this? Does this sound plausible to you?

reply to post by dontreally


You would think that if the mind was able to separate from the body, it would leave an empty vessel behind, incapable of any type of comprehension. That was always my understanding of how OOBE works.

Maybe this is a sign the author suffers from schizophrenia or his body is occupied by more than one soul or spirit (possession maybe?).

It sure doesn't sound right to me.

Originally posted by dontreally
Does this sound plausible to you?

more than plausible you just described an obe and a split consciousness memory transference. you answered your own question ie.

we are multi-dimensional beings

reply to post by dontreally


I don't believe in astral projection. It is simply a lucid dream that you concoct in your head. I have had that experience many times since I was a kid, it sure did feel like I was leaving my body and floating around doing stuff. Reality is, I was asleep the whole time having a lucid dream...........I think.

I haven't read this book, but I'll definitely check it out. Although, it isn't likely that my library carries it.

There's a debate on ATS right now on the validity of OBE's. www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm a pretty new member and just discovered the debate forum, it's pretty great check it out.

Your post reminds me of some stuff from one of the books I'm currently reading. It's called "Physics of the impossible" by Michio Kaku.

A quote (pg. 248):

"This leaves open some tantalizing questions: If physicists can't rule out the possibility of several types of parallel universes, would it be possible to make contact with them? To visit them? Or is it possible that perhaps beings from other universes have visited us?"

reply to post by FortAnthem


Well, ya, that would be the logical interpretation.

But he claims these levels exist sui generis, on their own terms. And the only reason we don't remember the activities of other selves is because as we return to ourselves, the only memories we recall are the ones that occurred while in the body.

These claims are pretty out there.

This author seems to have a bit of a following on the internet. And has man books on the market. His 'parapsychology' claims that while in an astral state, he'll sometimes encounter the real-time double (his term for the bodies used in this 'real-time' astral world) of someone else, but these doubles fall asleep half way through conversations, indicating to him that the conscious animating that body is only partially aware of this level of existence.

It's breathtaking in it's complexity, and he does appear overall to the of 'sound mind', but the claim is strange. On that alone, I'm going to err to the side of caution in his interpretation of his experiences.

reply to post by dontreally


I have read it and I think what he claims is more than plausible, and seems to support my own journeys, although I do not have mental recall of the split mind phenomena that you refer to.

My own theory on consciousness goes even further than what you have expressed here. Not only do we have multiple conscious selves operating simultaneously in this Earth reality, but we have multiple souls with multiple conscious selves in an infinite number of alternative realities, in all dimensional matrices. There is no end to what is real and unreal where spirit is involved.

Alex Grey is probably one of the best artists for trying to express this type of thinking within his work. Sometimes words can't adequately explain a spiritual experience.



Good luck with your adventures. Don't let fear get in the way of a good trip !

* Ned

Originally posted by billy197300
reply to post by dontreally

 

I don't believe in astral projection. It is simply a lucid dream that you concoct in your head. I have had that experience many times since I was a kid, it sure did feel like I was leaving my body and floating around doing stuff. Reality is, I was asleep the whole time having a lucid dream...........I think.

Lucid Dreaming and Astral Projection are essentially the same thing, the only difference is AP is making the disconnection while still conscious. A Lucid Dream is just realizing you're not awake mid dream.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by FortAnthem

 

Well, ya, that would be the logical interpretation.

But he claims these levels exist sui generis, on their own terms. And the only reason we don't remember the activities of other selves is because as we return to ourselves, the only memories we recall are the ones that occurred while in the body.

These claims are pretty out there.

Makes it sound like our spirit may be wandering around all the time without our knowledge, maybe even living its own separate life outside the body.

If its capable of having a life and experiences outside what the body's consciousness is aware of, could it really be called part of the body's consciousness?

If what he's saying is true, who or what is controlling the body while the spirit takes its journey? Is it possible for the body to go to work or go out on a date or something while the spirit is wandering?

This just seems to far out there to be plausible. To me, if the spirit wanders, the mind goes with it and the body lays dormant. That makes the most sense to me.

Then again, I don't have any experience with actual OOBE so, maybe I could be wrong.

reply to post by dontreally


Actually Robert Bruce is the man and if you really follow his book, and especially "New Energy Ways" you WILL get out of your body. Astral Dynamics is FREE by the way... I bought it way back in the day, and I think he has an updated version now that adds a little more, but he insists that the free version is all you need, which is a good sign for his credibility, even if his system wasn't already working for me haha.

The thing about being in 2 places at once...

When you dream, you ARE in 2 places. One of you is laying in bed, and the other has projected into dream land or anywhere else really. I have had dreams where both of me where conscious. I was laying there on the couch and could feel my whole body, and yet I was also walking through my old highschool, late for class or course and couldn't remember which class I was even going to (typical school dream)..

All the sudden my 2 selves realized we were both me. This was confusing as anything, because part of me even made a third part that was watching my two halves wonder which was right, while "I'm" thinking we are all right, and we are all conscious..

Then my minds all tried to be one, naturally, and I couldn't fix my perception that I was both sideways(in bed) and vertical(in dream) so my dream character lost his ability to exist, slowly.. First I got paralyzed, then I fell slowly(floating ) to the ground until my body positions matched and then "I" woke up..




How do you think the first creator even created us?? He split up.. It's all one thing, and it's all conscious.. Sometimes when you project you only put a small bit of you there, and so you're weak and it's hard to see, and sometimes you project almost all of your consciousness and at first it's amazing, but then your body needs more consciousness so it pulls you back..

moral of the story is that even though you think you are always in one place, you are really everywhere, all the time forever in an instant called Now.

Get it?

Your body is really only a tool, a magnet, an anchor.. All it's for besides carrying an amazing brain is that it keeps you together while you build up your soul and your identity.. With no identity you would just become everything else. But once you've had a body you'll have a personal soul, that still has the ability to re-learn how to be all...

What funny games we play.

reply to post by nimbinned

There is no end to what is real and unreal where spirit is involved.

If that were true, that would still have no claim on basic concepts of right and wrong, just and unjust.

Now, he's basing this on nothing more than an 'experience' he had, and tries to build his parapschology on 'experiential knowledge'. This no good by the scientific standard.

Until this can be proven in a measurable way - since he speaks of it as a measurable experience - it will remain ignored by science.

I do believe in higher levels of being; I even admit to the possibility of higher states of being existing at an abstract or metaphorical level, in which thoughts or feeling animate higher selves in seemingly automatic way, as symbolic impressions of our thoughts and feelings; But there is really only one true self, and that is the self at union with the body, in this very solid, very real and very intense world of matter.

While these spheres are of definite intellectual merit, and definitely must be explored by science, they must be so harmonized with this dimension to support basic laws of human reason, in how the world should function here.

In other words, we shouldn't imagine that this perception affords us true god-like powers. There is still a God, and this world and how it was created - is the true center of our being, inasmuch as we revolve about a teleological core. Robert Bruce may have alluded to this when he says that the 'higher self' protects us by keeping us rooted in physical reality; in other words, this is the world of action; this is the world of spiritual activity, of spiritual growth, of having families, having children, performing acts of kindness, etc.

Does that make sense?

Originally posted by dontreally
Now, so far this guys system is lacking overall coherence, although what he claims - OBE being experiences of ontological zones of being, is certainly believeable, however, his comprehension of it doesn't seem to be as solid as one would like it to be.

The book sounds interesting. As for how solid he seems, I think that a little doubt is a lot more believable than those running around, after these types of experiences, thinking they have looked into the mind of the almighty himself and now know all.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by nimbinned

 

There is no end to what is real and unreal where spirit is involved.

If that were true, that would still have no claim on basic concepts of right and wrong, just and unjust.

Now, he's basing this on nothing more than an 'experience' he had, and tries to build his parapschology on 'experiential knowledge'. This no good by the scientific standard.

one experience?? Haha you maybe need to learn more about who you are talking about. He's been around a long time, and he doesn't exagerate too much and isn't a money whore..

Until this can be proven in a measurable way - since he speaks of it as a measurable experience - it will remain ignored by science.

Explain how science can test being everywhere all at once? You cannot see consciousness without consciousness and science refuses to use anything conscious as a tool, because that has unknown variables..
You don't need pure science to get a good idea of what's happening though, just like you can win a court case by arguing your point.

Science won't answer this question for a bit, because when they do they're going to feel REALLY sheepish. Currently I know of no scientific way of testing. Gathering evidence is the best we can do, and that's good enough for me.

reply to post by Dustytoad

How do you think the first creator even created us?? He split up.. It's all one thing, and it's all conscious.. Sometimes when you project you only put a small bit of you there, and so you're weak and it's hard to see, and sometimes you project almost all of your consciousness and at first it's amazing, but then your body needs more consciousness so it pulls you back..

Indeed, man is made in the creators image, imbued with his abilities.

But just as a 'copy' of consciousness is never as solid as the awareness of my physical existence, so too is our existence predicated on some higher, more 'real' existence.

When we talk about God, we necessarily talk about a negative reality. However, God too has a positive aspect, just as we do. His 'positive aspect' is this world of His creation, implanted with His wisdom; and perhaps too, God is that 'person' we speak to when were afraid, or scared, or we address in prayer, in thanks and praise. It's like an impulse to go inward, to convey the experiences of life to the source of these experiences.

reply to post by Dustytoad

one experience?? Haha you maybe need to learn more about who you are talking about. He's been around a long time, and he doesn't exagerate too much and isn't a money whore..

No, I mean a subjective experience is not scientifically valid evidence.

You can have a million of them, and they still couldn't be take on face value.

Explain how science can test being everywhere all at once?

I'm not a physicist. I'm just saying their must be a fundamental connection between this physical world and these 'astral worlds' at some mechanical level. The historical idea is of a world that 'emanates' from the Godhead or "source" in the language of Robert Bruce, eventually resulting in the creation of this condensed world. The 'in between' worlds, are these 'astral' dimensions; progressively subtler realms of being.

It was Carl Jung and the physicist Wolfgang Paulie who explored this possibility in their work on archetypes and quantum physics, believing there was some causal relationship between them. Hence reality was 'arranged' to 'coincide' with archetypal events in a higher dimensionality, what we call 'synchronicity', which everyone has experienced.

In order for Bruces parapsychology to remain consistent, it must accommodate these sort of experiences, which necessitates an understanding of these realms from the perspective of quantum physics. Eventually, I believe it is likely that we will discover a cause - effect relationship between these two realms.

It would after all support your claim to having objective experiences when in an outer-body-state.

reply to post by dontreally


As Dusty explains above ^^, there is no science of consciousness and there probably never will be. It's purely speculative and reliant on ones experiential frame-work. As I see it , our conscious selves are the spirits conduit to physical and metaphysical experience, so is extremely difficult to define using human logic and reasoning.

Peace

reply to post by dontreally


That's the part you responded to?
(just the creator part)

I see my experience is wasted on you..

You're missing the point.

I can become the table sitting in front of me If I so desire. I AM everything. You identify with the part of you that thinks "I want that water." That part is but a part...

Maybe you should meditate, and leave your body...
You are asking things and then not accepting anything subjective while also conceding there is no objective way so...

No info can be given to you, you've already excluded everything.
Maybe you should just leave all this mumbo jumbo to those who know how to do it??

reply to post by SuspendedBelief


You are new I know, but you may wish to edit your post. It's NOT ok to talk about these things on this website.
Also you seem to think that a natural brain chemical relates to demons, and that someone seeing himself is a demon? you are very wrong I can assure you. A demon cannot give you it's memory as your own. You don't know as much as you think you do.

I agree that certain brain chemistry is related, and a very important part to mastering these experiences NATURALLY.

3rd eye...

I believe we can copy and paste ourselves...like a computer.