This blows my mind.

I believe we can copy and paste ourselves...like a computer.

reply to post by Dustytoad

Oh Well, thanks for insulting me.

I AM everything. You identify with the part of you that thinks "I want that water." That part is but a part...

In logical terms, isn't it of relevance that your center of consciousness is your body - that you're rooted only in your body, and that to actually leave your body, as you claim, you need to do something. The fact that your original state is the physical, implies a centrality - a teleological significance to the physical relative to the spiritual. That we are not supposed to live 'up there' but down here. That is the concept of 'being rooted'.

Now, addressing the fact of there being an 'up there' in which the personality can function as a copy of itself, is certainly interesting, and perhaps in future times this perspective would fare into the human situation here on earth, but the point is and should always be, our uniqueness, our situation here on earth, myself as an I which speaks to a Thou. (do you read anything else besides this parapsychology stuff?).

Do you know the tower if babel story? That idea conveys something at multiple levels; one: the sociopolitical situation on earth. Kings want power because they want to be like God; this thirst and hunger for power leads to establishing a one unified state. This one unified state idea is not like a "united nations' which still emphasizes some 'differentness' amongst it's unity. As you just said, to notice 'difference' is to be rooted in 'the part that experiences something'. The ultimate social aims of the builders could be best expressed in the concept of a libertarian socialist society, which erases all concepts of difference; it is the ultimate moral relative society, and as you earlier implied when saying 'everything is just a part', which means to say my perception of myself as my body is 'equal' to the desk or chair I look at, you meant just that. Secondly, it really leads to a egomaniacal sense of ones selfhood. As 'great' as man can be, he is still logically only a creature. Can you ignore that? Of course not. You work from the pantheistic premise that all is 'eternal'.

That's a philosophically unsound notion. You may 'possess' the possibility' to be some place else, or to transfer consciousness into another thing, but it doesn't change the order of priority; you are by nature, and by necessity, saying this, just as everyone else says this, as a human being rooted in a body.

You're problem is that you take these experiences far too literally

reply to post by Dustytoad

science refuses to use anything conscious as a tool

Do you read what you wright ? Define a mathematician...

All science is done like anything in human experience trough our 5 senses, it is all a conscious process...

The dizziness felt like a spinning or falling sensation. This quickly intensified and soon felt as if I were caught up in some kind of insane amusement park ride....In the back of my mind I began to wonder if I might be dying...The bonedeep buzzing, droning waves and dizziness increased, accompanied by an even heavier falling sensation, as if I were continually falling backward from a great height. This falling sensation made me feel quite nauseous....The pressure around me head increased painfully....494

494 Robert Bruce, Astral Dynamics: A new approach to Out-of-Body Experience (Hampton Roads, 1999), p. 411.

O.K. so Robert Bruce distinguishes between "etheric" travel and "astral" travel.

I can verify this distinction. When you do "etheric" travel you stay in your body.

O.K. let me explain this.

Deep breath here -- I'm glad you're raising these questions as it's very fascinating and fundmental stuff. So I have a lot of information to share so just be patient.

O.K. so first of all -- etheric travel -- you stay in your body -- but your pineal gland creates an electromagnetic field that then picks up information outside of you and then the field translates the information -- or I mean the pineal gland then translates that information back into your own body. So then your own body senses the information that was external to you but is now reflected internally -- corresponding to your own body.

So -- now remember this is just "etheric travel" but it could also be considered strong "empathic" powers. But essentially if a person is very sad but doesn't express it externally -- you can actually feel their sadness the same as they do internally in their own body -- even though they may not say anything or show any expression of sadness. You could even feel their sadness if your eyes just meet -- even from a block away!

O.K. so the information travels holographically because it's based on the spirit information from the heart - the spirit energy. Westerners don't realize but our eyes transmit biophoton energy as spirit energy -- during the day. At night that energy goes to the liver. Normally.

O.K. so on etheric travel - you can transmit healing energy and -- so you can feel someone's energy blockages -- and so emotional energy is electrochemical energy and that's why it's etheric and not astral.

I could go on about that but your asking about astral travel.

So the thing is that even for etheric travel to work it needs a "carrier wave" of astral energy or spirit energy -- holographic energy. So why is it holographic? Remember that science does not have a unified field theory but probably the best is de Broglie's Law of Phase Harmony -- which relies on a "pilot wave" that is faster than light -- and works through a spacetime vortex. So there can be information from the future that then travels backwards and so this is a "pilot wave" -- this is consciousness in the sense that it can not be measured by technology until after the fact -- it is quantum entanglement -- so it is a spacetime vortex that is impersonal consciousness.

So that is also called nonduality in non-western philosophy. So we always-already exist in nondual consciousness. This freaks people out -- but consider that every night in deep dreamless sleep you don't know you exist nor do you know that spacetime exists. Yet consciousness remains - so logically we can infer we still exist even though we are not aware of our existence. So who are we really? There is something that is impersonal that guides up.

O.K. so anyway a person can create multiple astral bodies at the same time - this is called the "yin spirit." If your yin spirit or holographic quantum coherent light body -- it is high frequency energy as light energy that is coherent -- so if you spirit energy leaves your body before it can be powered by your etheric body - then there is dizziness.

See the quote I gave above by Robert Bruce? He is describing his astral body leaving him. I had this happen to me after I did intensive qigong training to finish my masters degree -- I took classes from qigong master Chunyi Lin. Chunyi Lin of springforestqigong.com... - he can create multiple astral bodies which break off from the top of his head - I saw him do this. Also dead spirits travel to him to get healed. I saw this also. He confirmed all of this.

So you ask -- how can your body be in two places at the same time? The thing is that the impersonal consciousness is guiding this astral travel -- that is the spacetime vortex. So the astral body is the coherent light energy but it goes into the Emptiness as the impersonal consciousness as the spacetime vortex. So in quantum physics this is called time-frequency uncertainty. The individual ego has to let go - so it can't be aware of multiple bodies at the exact same time but the difference rate depends on the coherent frequency of the body -- how fast can the focus change. It is Quantum Zeno Effect.

While having no experiences with OBE,,I can tell you that in tibetan buddhism for example there are numerous texts talking about this phenomenon. It is called "manifestations', where a budhha or an enlightened being can manifest itself in different worlds and different forms in the same time,for the benefit of as many as possible beings.

There is also the different levels of bodhisattva where at each level the student can projest ten folds as many manifestations as at the previous level. For example if at the first level he can project ten manifestations of himself, at second level it can project 100, then 1000 and so on.

Also if you read about Papaji's life, a hindu master dead in the 80's, there are many testimonies of him appearing in different locations in India to heal people or help them somehow, while it's physical body didn't leave his home for something like 40 years (don't remember exactly).

So yes, I would say it's a valid phenomenon; the only thing I would specify is that in most cases it happens spontaneously, not induced. It is a side effect of awakening, not a goal in itself.

Originally posted by Panic2k11
reply to post by Dustytoad

 

science refuses to use anything conscious as a tool

Do you read what you wright ? Define a mathematician...

All science is done like anything in human experience trough our 5 senses, it is all a conscious process...

A conscious person yes. But they rely on non conscious measuring. they don't just go it looks hot, they use a thermometer.. So to study me being in two places at once what device do they use to tell where "I" Am?
Only consciousness sees consciousness as far as I am aware. So therefore accurate OBJECTIVE measurements cannot be made. Especially as you get into the subtler and subtler concepts.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Dustytoad

 

Oh Well, thanks for insulting me.

I AM everything. You identify with the part of you that thinks "I want that water." That part is but a part...

In logical terms, isn't it of relevance that your center of consciousness is your body - that you're rooted only in your body, and that to actually leave your body, as you claim, you need to do something. The fact that your original state is the physical, implies a centrality - a teleological significance to the physical relative to the spiritual. That we are not supposed to live 'up there' but down here. That is the concept of 'being rooted'.

No I AM EVERYTHING. My center is God, not my body. that's the concept of being rooted. My original state was nothing, and that was a long time ago. You see I'm quite old. Once I got inside this body and lost my memory I became Identified with it. Through moral conditioning like giving me a name I was further anchored. It's just a container with a magnetic quality to it. Come on out of that lamp, it's cramped in there.

It is useful to have a body, and it's useful to identify with it.

It only appears central to you because you don't remember before. And also because you have never left it, and never became ONE. Not that this is an action that says im seperate and must become, but just from the perspective of the part of me (ego) that types I have to say it like this. It IS already and has always been.

If you want to be confused I could try and speak from the I AM I... Then grammar goes out the window, and I can't hold a perspective of object subject sentences and so cannot tell you anything. Not to mention all our language uses directional frazes that can only serve to distort the truth that is ME.




I have studied this topic a lot, and I highly recommend Robert Bruce for this. The monroe institute is also good.
My experiences match his with things like "real time Zone" "split consciousness" "energy body"

I can tell you a hint. You have to shift conscious awareness from body to spirit. You do the same thing when you "fall" (directional word) asleep, you shift the "I" from body to mind. the I can be big or small, or multiple pieces.. It is the conscious observer. Problem is you need to maintain self awareness so falling asleep is not good. This makes it much harder than sleeping, and your body image will keep coming back to your attention since it likes you so much.. Aww...

Anyway meditation helps the most out of anything to get you into the right frequency ranges to even pull this off.

reply to post by Dustytoad


You are making no sense, mathematics do not rely in instrumentation. I sort of understand your basic premise but see no value or relevance to it...

You can accept or refute reality outside of yourself, beyond that the conscious distinctions become irrelevant, your eyes are simple biological instruments themselves they are not conscious in fact you can only perceive the past not the present due to the delay that exist between light reflections hitting your retina an your biological processing of the images...

Originally posted by Panic2k11
reply to post by Dustytoad

 

You are making no sense, mathematics do not rely in instrumentation. I sort of understand your basic premise but see no value or relevance to it...

You can accept or refute reality outside of yourself, beyond that the conscious distinctions become irrelevant, your eyes are simple biological instruments themselves they are not conscious in fact you can only perceive the past not the present due to the delay that exist between light reflections hitting your retina an your biological processing of the images...

Math isn't really science. It can be used to prove itself objectively we invented it that way on purpose.. it's a bad analogy.. Pick anything else. But along the vein of Math it basically proves layered realities exist.

Pure consciousness experiences without "tools"
Your eyes are tools and they are unconscious sure I can go with that.. You can still see and hear and touch outside of your body.. Can't produce vocal sound though..

This should help you.
What objective tool sees consciousness DIRECTLY????? Without the use of watching a body or anything else like that. Tell me how they could see that. Feel it? taste it?

reply to post by Dustytoad


Consciousness is a label and idea a concept, concepts do not have measures, weight, size or color. One can even state correctly that we do not understand consciousness, we simply accept the theory that it exists as the best one...

Beyond those simple evidences I do not see were your are going.

Regarding mathematics it is a science, it just does not use the scientific process but relies on conjectures and proofs, the proofs have similitude with the scientific process it just sorta goes in reverse. In any case i chose it precisely because of it being purely abstract...

What about psychology or theology ?

reply to post by Panic2k11


maybe I should give you some examples. I may see where I lost you, it's my fault. I am not talking about proving leaving the body. Simple tools like a deck of cards taped to a window facing out could be used and then I fly out through the window (hard for me to do cause it's thick and confusing) and look at the card come back and tell them. Then they look at the card which they didn't look at before hand and bingo got an answer, then rinse and repeat.

What I was talking about was testing split consciousness. How can they tell If while I am looking at the card I am still in my body too.

Or if they set up 2 cards at once and one of me looks at one and another me looks at the other, I meet back up and hopefully keep both memory streams(hard for me also) and tell them what I saw. BUT I could just travel to each one just the same and see both cards while always being in one place...

How do they see me when I am everywhere?

By the way dejavu is split consciousness... 2 memory streams for the same event, but the closer to spirit the closer to eternity so it get's there first.. then your bodymind gets there and is like "dude what the, this happened already!!"

reply to post by Panic2k11


oh so there it is.. You think it's just a concept.

You see my friend I think it's the only thing that has EVER existed.

Here's a quote from Bill Hicks:

"what if the news told the truth for once?"

“Today a young man on _____ realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather.”


You should really leave your body some time and do the card test while you are at it. When you start getting the card right you'll know consciousness is more than a "concept"

It doesn't surprise me at all. I mean, without getting into his view of spiritual implications and explanations, only focusing on the experience as he described it (whatever the explanation may be) this is not completely foriegn to us.

We often "see through the eyes of others", or "walk in their shoes". while simultaneously keeping our own perception and position.

How well, or how accurately, I can do this depends upon how well I know the person, how much of their principles and values and philosophy they have shared with me- then I can look at any situation, or even at myself, and experience how they see it.

When I am talking to my child, for example, I am simultaneously aware of how I look and feel to the child. This may be in contrast to my own self perception. But I am experiencing both my perception, feelings and thoughts, as well as theirs at the same time.

I suspect that this involves creating a sort of "copy" of their base personality within my mind (why my knowledge of them is essential to this) like a lens, through which I can see. At the same time, as if through another eye , I can still see my own differing perception and thought associations and pathways.

I sometimes think of this as simply philosophical thought, because each person has a philosophy of their own- a network of values, preferences, learned and conditioned responses and principles, which frame their perception and experiences. So learning to grasp various philosophies is much like this experience, in my opinion.

In any case, like I point out, I think this is common enough for us everyday that even if he was wrong in his explanation and systems, if it was only his imagination, (not saying it is, just "at the very least") it is an experience we all know, when we are seeing ourselves through the eyes of a loved one and experiencing ourself from the inside of our own personalities, at the same time.

(I sometimes suspect that women experience this more than men, and that it is at the root of people who struggle with ambivalence, choice making, or being authorative. )

Originally posted by Panic2k11
reply to post by Dustytoad

 

What about psychology or theology ?

ok.. Psychology. I like that you picked this as an example. I know why you did. Well, it is a science. It can be tested in ways by probing the mind of people, and repeating these same tests on many many people. Over time the mind has been mapped. There are disagreements about exactly which concepts are true and how they are structured together like ego, id, shadow...

This is a study of the Mind.. It can not see consciousness. Many people think they are the same thing. Maybe I should be using the word conscious awareness instead? Consciousness predates the mind.. Babies have little mind but enough consciousness..

theology... study of god? Mythology? history? I mean it's not really scientific.. And it too is about the mind. IT's about what people think. You do need consciousness to think, but it is the mind that does it.

If one thinks consciousness arises from the brain then I could completely see why they wouldn't think it was anything but a concept, a word, a placeholder.. But if one thinks some consciousness created the universe setting it into motion letting evolution occur (yes I am a creationist evolutionist) and then consciousness goes into bodies and we start this game we are all playing...

reply to post by Bluesma


I Loved your post. It was such a perfect angle... If only I was seeing through your eyes earlier I wouldn't have wasted so much time debating an issue mired in "spiritual" things.. These are such hard concepts to talk about when there are not any words that mean the right thing. I have to sub in words that are close, like God is one main one that I hate... Puts out the wrong vibe of what I mean by the word.. And yet it is the closest one.

I hope everyone reads it. So simple...

I actually do what you are talking about constantly, I always have.. Makes it hard to relax when I can tell exactly what I look like and sound like from other people there with me..

I AM everyone, because I can Identify with everyone. And once you identify you can't want to hurt them. Then you want to help everyone.

Do unto others...

Originally posted by Bluesma

(I sometimes suspect that women experience this more than men, and that it is at the root of people who struggle with ambivalence, choice making, or being authorative. )

edit on 27-9-2012 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

This part is SO me. I can make choices easy as anything if I am alone. If I am with anyone else I can see their side equal as mine, and so I say I don't mind either way what do you want? And when I say that it's actually true, cause if they're happy im happy..

Peace.

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong

So the thing is that even for etheric travel to work it needs a "carrier wave" of astral energy or spirit energy -- holographic energy. So why is it holographic? Remember that science does not have a unified field theory but probably the best is de Broglie's Law of Phase Harmony -- which relies on a "pilot wave" that is faster than light -- and works through a spacetime vortex. So there can be information from the future that then travels backwards and so this is a "pilot wave" -- this is consciousness in the sense that it can not be measured by technology until after the fact -- it is quantum entanglement -- so it is a spacetime vortex that is impersonal consciousness.

This is what I meant about dejavu in a way..

So that is also called nonduality in non-western philosophy. So we always-already exist in nondual consciousness. This freaks people out -- but consider that every night in deep dreamless sleep you don't know you exist nor do you know that spacetime exists. Yet consciousness remains - so logically we can infer we still exist even though we are not aware of our existence. So who are we really? There is something that is impersonal that guides up.

exactly.. We already ARE..

O.K. so anyway a person can create multiple astral bodies at the same time - this is called the "yin spirit." If your yin spirit or holographic quantum coherent light body -- it is high frequency energy as light energy that is coherent -- so if you spirit energy leaves your body before it can be powered by your etheric body - then there is dizziness.

Oh that's why it's so hard for me to maintain?? dang man where were you before?? Any tips on staying "inside" while I power up? Or is it more a case of not having a strong enough light body?

multiple bodies.. Yep I know.

See the quote I gave above by Robert Bruce? He is describing his astral body leaving him. I had this happen to me after I did intensive qigong training to finish my masters degree

I first found out about this meditating one time. All of the sudden my body started having it's own thoughts and actions while I had my own thoughts and actions.. I was aware of both, and it confused me.. It wasn't until many split consciousness experiences later that I realized they were all "me"



You had such an enlightening post.
Thank you,
~dusty

reply to post by Dustytoad


I have very large doubts regarding OBE and even NDEs (but here it gets a bit more confusing that I can fully provide an empirical response).

What I was talking about was testing split consciousness. How can they tell If while I am looking at the card I am still in my body too.

I think OBE are self delusions, they are real to the observer and even if there could be some sort of extra sensorial inputs in the mix that would lead to something like remove viewing I do not credit the idea that consciousness has gone anywhere (thought does not need to travel in my view of reality, space even time is a construct).

In this setting I can accept that the perception of the observer was a split of consciousness but not that it actually happened as he states. I only see the viability of a personal unique consciousness or a shared one (universal) and I'm very inclined to the latter as it is simpler and creates few problems...

No, dejavu is not split consciousness it is a memory gaff, this has been studied...

PS: If you are into self exploration of consciousness you should take a look at hypnosis, the power of "make believe" it will open you some new paths on how mind can it truly the shaper of your own reality...

Originally posted by Panic2k11
reply to post by Dustytoad

 

I have very large doubts regarding OBE and even NDEs (but here it gets a bit more confusing that I can fully provide an empirical response).

What I was talking about was testing split consciousness. How can they tell If while I am looking at the card I am still in my body too.

I think OBE are self delusions, they are real to the observer and even if there could be some sort of extra sensorial inputs in the mix that would lead to something like remove viewing I do not credit the idea that consciousness has gone anywhere (thought does not need to travel in my view of reality, space even time is a construct).

In this setting I can accept that the perception of the observer was a split of consciousness but not that it actually happened as he states. I only see the viability of a personal unique consciousness or a shared one (universal) and I'm very inclined to the latter as it is simpler and creates few problems...

No, dejavu is not split consciousness it is a memory gaff, this has been studied...

PS: If you are into self exploration of consciousness you should take a look at hypnosis, the power of "make believe" it will open you some new paths on how mind can it truly the shaper of your own reality...

edit on 27-9-2012 by Panic2k11 because: (no reason given)

I KNOW what you think about OBE you are transparent. I proposed a way to test it.. You always respond to little bits of what I say that have the least meaning.. Maybe that's all you can tackle?

"you don't have to travel spacetime doesn't exist" Der.. Are you not listening. I AM the Universe... You want things to be I am a body in a world and you want things to be there is no time?? Gawd man you want too much.. God is inside me as I am inside god. I agree space is an illusion, and yet you doubt OBE.. Your ideas are against each other.

You don't understand what you are writing.. Of course if this whole thing is one consciousness as you say you are inclined to believe then obviously you can experience other parts of the ONE that you ARE. From the perspective of your body it is Leaving the body.

You are getting lost in words.

I don't need any recommendations from you..

Enlighten me about how they proved a memory gaff... Think about that. How do you prove that?? Nah man dejavu is not a memory gaff. I get whole 1 minute videos that after the first 10 seconds I KNOW the rest that's going to happen and I tell people in real time, and point here she comes, before the girl walks in the door who is about to say... "hey where's sandy?"

See I told you guys that was about to happen.

I thought you were a materialist, but now you just seem confused.

You quote my post that is about testing this and you respond with an opinion that isn't even about what I was even saying in that one line you quoted.. I wrote way more than that.

Think about it.. This IS testable. If someone leaves their body and sees something and comes back and reports accurately without any way of prior knowledge then that is Proof. If you want to say mind is all and they really didn't go anywhere then the same thing still happened, and we are not bodies. I can't believe what I am having to respond to here..

I have read those dejavu studies as I have read the OBE studies where they simulate each in a fake manner and then say see look what we did we made them think this happened haha, and they believed the illusion, we just PROVED, that OBE and Dejavu are fake...

I couldn't think of worse nonsensical "science" if I tried. (hint: you cannot prove a negative, and even if you prove a positive there are often more than one cause for similar reactions) Come on though Feed me some links. I want to see your proof. Let's do dejavu first. Prove to me it's a memory fault.

I can prove eating 100s of hot peppers will make you throw up. So based on what those "science tests" about these subjects are like I just explained sickness, it's just hot peppers guys. Drinking 15 beers won't make you sick at all... eeehhhh...

reply to post by Dustytoad

No I AM EVERYTHING.

Also a tad fanatical, it seems.

My center is God, not my body.

Of course, relative to the conscious personality, God is our center. I agree. But the teleological fact of our being rooted in a body in life, must carry some importance as well. That's what I've been trying to get you to understand. You can claim that you are 'everything' but that 'everything' is not quite as constant as your own rooted experience in a physical body as a human being. This 'otherness' then that you experience as another object or thing, is thus a process of sympathy, not an actual fact of you being that thing as it is in itself. If that were true, you wouldn't be permanently separated from those things by your particularized placement as a human being.

My original state was nothing, and that was a long time ago

Ok, so my sense of myself, as Michael, is 'nothing'. Nice to know.

It only appears central to you because you don't remember before.

Listen, no experience you speak of will change my mind, or the philosophical truth of man being mind+body.

While I acknowledge this fact as being plausible, It no way alters philosophical discussion, as philosophy - something you appear to have lost interest in with all this fun 'floating through walls' business which makes you feel godlike, apparently, is less important to anything you experience.

Hence, despite the presence of the 'mysteries' in ancient Greece, still, Plato and Aristotle saw it as equally or even more important to set about a path for living for human beings. I also disagree with Plato and Aristotle, but their thinking is far more rooted and sensible than yours is.

If you want to be confused I could try and speak from the I AM I...

You seem to think I'm new to this literature. I may be new to Robert Bruce, and his type of parapsychology, but I have a long history of studying Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, Kabbalah, Sufism and Vedanta, Theosophy etc. I've been interested in this subject for a long time.

My problem, philosophically, is the much vaunted belief that the perception of the Absolute or Universal should have any say in mans real life day to day living. There is also the particular, the relational; the reality which unfolds from these experiences, between one person and another, are RICHER and more full of meaning than the homogenized sense of "I AM" everything. I'm not taking away validity to those perceptions, but they are entirely personal, and mystical; they have nothing to do with social life, and should have nothing to do with it.

Attitudes such as yours - is what leads to crimes that the Nazis committed (Nazis actually worshiped the Germanic god "wotan", who is identified with Pure Will, making the experience of him an experience of a unified reality unaffected by external conditions. As well as Muslims; Allah is also seen as Pure Will, hence the complete disregard shown for those they kill; they don't 'exist'. They are mere shadows of Allahs pure willing.

My experiences match his with things like "real time Zone" "split consciousness" "energy body"

He later emphasizes, as I continued reading, that only one of his bodies could continue moving; while his physical body sat and thought, he only had control of one body.

This implies to me that this 'split' he discovered is a phenomenon accompanying an attempted OBE that fails, and isn't a normal phenomenon in itself. In any case, it's pretty amazing.

I can tell you a hint. You have to shift conscious awareness from body to spirit. You do the same thing when you "fall" (directional word) asleep, you shift the "I" from body to mind.

I have no interest in this. Most mystics aren't themselves very interested in this. In fact, many consider a life's focus on developing and playing with 'psychic ability' to be a waste of time, distracting one from actual spiritual growth.

Besides, as I've done this in my dreams before, I don't like the tired feeling I wake up with.

reply to post by Bluesma

We often "see through the eyes of others", or "walk in their shoes". while simultaneously keeping our own perception and position.

You mean sympathy, or empathy?

how they see it.

But it's always just an approximation of their experience. It's never actually their experience. But something is definitely picked up - psychically - which probably differs between sympathy and empathy, that allows your conscious mind to absorb a perception that likens theirs.

When I am talking to my child, for example, I am simultaneously aware of how I look and feel to the child. This may be in contrast to my own self perception.

I probably have nothing of similar extent to mention, as I'm not a woman and I know from my own mom, that the connection and sympathy between herself and her child (me) is enormous. I can only look at it, understand it, and enjoy the pleasure of knowing that my mother knows me as well as she does.

But I am experiencing both my perception, feelings and thoughts, as well as theirs at the same time.

At all times? While I agree to some extent that a mother can intuit her child's feelings - and thus thought - this is usually a momentary sensation, and cannot last.

I suspect that this involves creating a sort of "copy" of their base personality within my mind (why my knowledge of them is essential to this) like a lens, through which I can see.

Why is creating a 'copy' necessary? As I see it, what happens is the spirit between the two people - mother and son - carries with it the information, or 'copy' if you prefer, of the others present thoughts/feelings. But what transfers the feeling itself is responsible for the perception.

At the same time, as if through another eye , I can still see my own differing perception and thought associations and pathways.

I think only one perception dominates, while at a lesser level of conscious perception, there is the simultaneous awareness of your sons thoughts/feelings.

This is in any case what I've experienced.

So learning to grasp various philosophies is much like this experience, in my opinion.

Much less mind blowing, though. I agree that in principle, that two sets exist simultaneously - of different intensities - exist; but this is far more strange, as it is two different selves of his perceiving two different things at two different places all within the same time period.