Like it or not, God is immoral.

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by HamrHeed

Blame the christians NOT. Blame the heathens. Nobody is perfect but these people who misrepresent the will of God are in their own

You who profess to know God are the only way what you call 'heathens' will ever know of God...

Are you representing God well enough??

The unbelievers blame God for all the bad things happening in the World when the responsibility is supposed to be ours! We are supposed to be the light and salt of this world!

But we are all just bunch of cowards! Too afraid for our own lives and families. We love ourselves and families more than God!

I understand it's not of the holy spirit to openly call out people but look at the state of the world. I will be judged for my sins accordingly, and I accept the will of the Father on my life in judgement.
I say heathens because their only goal is numbers.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Originally posted by HamrHeed

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by HamrHeed

 

I consider this "testifying" (to a brother) and is very important to the faith. I hear ya

When I speak of Brother, I am speaking of Jesus, as this is what we are required to call him. From your response it sounded as though you thought I meant a brother here? I apologize if I am incorrect.

And there is the circle of completion.. Testifying of the Father about his son to another follower of Christ is HEARD and replied to.
Most people will never understand what I just posted. I know I wouldn't have back a few years ago.
The holy spirit cannot be explained and it scares the shi out of people

We will get there, lord knows we will.

How long is a time scale but never the less, it's had and experienced.

When the spirit hits you, you can't help but to be taken in and witness the wonders of our father!

All the pain for naught? I doubt this with every fibre of my being.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Like it or not, God is immoral.

Satan is said to be "the great Deceiver"

He has had a lot of time to practice this and has become VERY good at it.

The devil or Satan is the deceiver of the whole world. ~ Revelation 12:9

He is a liar and the father of liars. There is no truth in him. He must lie and deceive to get a following. ~ John 8:44

There is a VAST Satanic conspiracy to deceive the masses of every society on earth.

Who tricked people into disobeying God and bringing death into the world? Satan...

His first tactic is to steal. What would he like to steal?

Anything and everything that will lead you to Jesus and to Gods love.

The Illuminati (AKA Synagogue of Satan) use lies and propaganda to cause the world to believe that God is the cause of wars and death.

In reality THEY are the ones behind the scenes manipulating ALL world events.

LEARN TO THINK IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF PROPAGANDA...

The serpent was subtle and lied to Eve -- beguiled (deceived) her. Had Eve understood God's real love and the real consequences of obeying Satan, she would not have done it. Satan denied the consequences and made evil appear to be good. ~ Gen. 3:1-5,13

This is standard procedure for Satan. He transforms himself into an angel of light. Satan is the world's greatest counterfeiter. ~ 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by akushla99
Oh my! Shock, horror!

The Creator of all that is seen and unseen, the omnipotent, omniscient creator is 'self-serving'...

I wouldn't put much credit into arguing the toss, using material that so thoroughly contradicts itself...or...my, my...has been totally misinterpreted

Fundies will argue the word...but interpret and misinterpret nonetheless...
Detractors will argue the word against the word...but interpret the interpretation...and the misinterpretation...

A99

Thanks for your non-responce to the O P.

Is that a yes or a no to the premise?

Regards
DL

How confused could you get?

You are using a misinterpreted interpretation to come to a conclusion; a conclusion (incidentally), promoted by fundies (of most major faiths - think...Islamic fundies), that presents you with a vision of an omnipotent, omniscient, all-creating, all-encompassing, timeless being...who is so conflicted in its all-pervading potency, that it would pit Itself against itself, and then (in some cosmic schizophrenic episode), require its creations (essentially itself, if you follow the hidden parts of the text) to avail themselves of thier own salvation from itself...

In the EXTREME...this scenario...DOES NOT MAKE SENSE...and let me be clear, God is not an idiot...which is what is mooted in this scenario...a scenario you (at some level believe) give credit to, in the original thread question...

But, my short answer is NO...God is not immoral...

Satisfied?

A99

reply to post by Greatest I am

Not being a religious man, I do agree with you.... that which humanity collectively calls "G-D" (job description, not a proper name) is in fact Immortal, but then so are all of us, after all, the supposed creations in this mix. I know for a fact that I have lived many lives before this one, and as a small child my future self visited me, the same thing happened to my son. Only the carbon based human receptacle is mortal, friend, and as you know, all things mortal follow a cycle of birth, life, and death. Humanity will always exist, the human Soul is pure energy, and impossible to destroy, so life as we know it is immortal, in that sense.

reply to post by Greatest I am


If "God" is immoral, that means he didn't invent morals. If he didn't invent morals, that means he exists outside of moral philosophy. So is anything related to morals is entirely up to us. Likewise, he didn't create evil or good. Which means "God" is neither good nor bad, and the same with "Satan", which he also supposedly created. So half of what people believe about "God" is based on our own inventions, and so with "Satan".

Which means that the Christians have been looking at it wrong the whole time. Way to sell them out, my friend. You're on your way to realizing the quandaries of modern religion.

That or I will show that any of his altruistic acts are self-serving.

Finally, we are getting somewhere.

To say God is immoral is to say he exists. Which means you must prove the existence before you can move to the morality. One who has faith should never try and argue as faith is for the individual or group that believe. Once you make a claim outside of such group it becomes an objective statement being applied to others as well and requires proof or at least a more likely than not argument that outweighs what the opposer will bring to the table. The problem is those that do not believe in Gods existence have no such obligation of proof, as there would be no evidence of the lack of existence. So it would be in the best interest of the one with faith to avoid arguing their case. Pertaining to the golden rule "treat others the way you wish to be treated" has one big flaw. What about those that do not wish to be treated as you do? Shouldn't you treat others they way they want to be treated? and what if they wanted to be treated in a way that goes against your character? in either case you reach a stalemate.

reply to post by Greatest I am


How could We, Beings so far removed from God that we see ourselves as something separate from God, possibly know enough to judge God being moral or immoral?

Everything is temporarily infinite. All That Is is a series of continuously changing circumstances and outcomes. All interrelated, all intertwined. Even 'immoral' acts cause others to take action with 'moral' acts. Many times the 'immoral' acts are THE reason for others to wake up, turn to Love, turn to God and continue to act morally towards human kind.

God Is. There is nothing BUT God. Sure, God is Immoral, but God is also Moral. God made Good. God made Bad. God made Hate. God made Love. God made You. God made Me.

All we are here for is to temporarily dance through the physical realm of God's thoughts while we obtain experiences and knowledge and work our way back from whence we came.

But for anyone (myself included) to think we have 'figured this all out,' or understand how God works...and then to LABEL how God works as 'immoral'....well that takes having your head pretty far up your own ___

reply to post by Greatest I am

You will be judged by the standard of perfection, and will be found lacking "greatest I am"..

Shouldn't the thread title specify which God?......

Surely Yahweh and Ganesha disagree on certain moral issues...

**edit: I see you mentioned 'Bible'. I assume you mean Christianity's version of God?

Immoral is an understatement that being the case.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Why be judged by the standard of perfection, when he knew from the start that we would never be 'perfect'?

We all have been told that "God" is five things: omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, loving, and merciful. The average Christian would tell us that these are the commonly accepted characteristics. So for the points I'm about to make, we are operating under the assumption that these traits hold true in the being called "God".

When "God" made hell, as he crafted each seat, he knew who would sit there and why. Yet he made no move to change that course. Not only does he know what we can do, but what we WILL do. That's the meaning of omniscience. So if he refuses to alter the future in any way, that means everyone who will ever go to hell or heaven is going there because he WANTS them to. When you are omniscient AND omnipotent, doing nothing is the same as saying, "I approve of this. Carry on." In other words, the moment omniscience and omnipotence are involved with the same being, all free will is lost. When you have the power to know everything and do anything, inaction is synonymous with responsibility.

Additionally, he creates us then holds us responsible for the flaws he gave us. Why blame us for something he did? If he was that interested in having a flawless line of servants, he could easily wind back the clock and start all over again. When you exist outside of time, that's the work of a couple seconds. Yet he chose not to. Again, he is saying "I want all of you to go through hell. I want you to demonstrate what terrors you are capable of." Either that, or he just doesn't care. Either way, that's another contradiction of "God"s supposed nature.

Similarly, when he created "Satan", that's a sign that he is capable of evil. Would an entity who is supposedly love incarnate be able to create something so foul, disgusting, and abominable? Is that logically possible? All evil and all sin came from "God". This means that either "God" is capable of evil...or he didn't create sin. After all, if he's going to introduce the two qualities that negate free will, he might as well do it so that we won't be punished for disobeying, yes? And if all he wants is to be worshipped, why even bother with free will? Otherwise, he'll only be forced to destroy his creations. He could avoid the whole ordeal by recreating his servants and doing it right this time...but no. He won't. And that means he WANTS it this way.

One more thing. In order to think, your emotions and mind must undergo change. That's what thought is, right? Mental change, mental adjustment. Eternal means unchanging. Look it up. Google the definition. Something that is eternal cannot change, and so thought is impossible for that entity. Adding onto that, "God" is shown to have changed his mind multiple times. Something that is eternal will not do that. In fact, that throws even more doubt on the omniscience claim, because someone who is omniscient would have seen that coming immediately, and therefore would never have had to change his mind.

That's 1 through 4 of my list of logical fallacies regarding the nature of "God". There wil undoubtedly be arguments, but I;m fairly certain that for the most part, I've made some very valid points. In the end, not a single one of us understands "God" as much as we pretend to, and very few understand him as much as they'd like to.

So when it is said that "God" is immoral, that's a severe understatement. "God" isn't just immoral, he is a quandary. A quandary invented by desperate men. See, whenever we fear something, we create an opposite and strive toward it, because we want meaning in life. We're afraid of our dark side, and we're afraid of what comes after death, and we're afraid of the chaos in life. So we come up with "God", who promises to save us from ourselves, promises eternal happiness in the afterlife, and promises to keep us safe from the terrors of the world as long as we believe in him.

Pure psychology and reasonable analysis tell us that despite all the positive effects Christianity or Catholicism or Baptism or Mormonism or any other Judaic/Abrahamic religion may have on our lives, it's still stolen and warped beyond recognition. But in a world where we fight to take the easy road, we'll be damned before we have to take the hard, honest road.

...pun intended. Long story short: either he's a flawed deity, or you guys need to come up with a better story. The way you've written it, your "God" has a laundry list of character defects, and more plot holes than an empty grave yard. Some serious editing is needed if you expect to gather more followers...ones who don't go "baa-aaaaa-aaaa", that is.

reply to post by g0dhims3lf

One who has faith should never try and argue as faith is for the individual or group that believe.

Then why even bother with science? You should move in with the Amish...actually, scratch that. You have to think logically if you want to repair that tractor or plan the best way to plow the field.

If god exists in a conscious thinking male form like the christians portray, then I would compare him (it) to a kid putting a bunch of different fish in an aquarium who then sits back and watches them tear each other to shreds, all the while possessing the power to reach down and end the suffering but does nothing, because it is satisfying it's own morbid curiosity.

reply to post by jeantherapy


I keep saying that if the reason "God" never shows up is because first we'd blast him out of the sky, then we'd place him under arrest and put him on trial for the death of every man, woman, and child he's ever killed or been responsible for the deaths of in the existence of this world.

"God" is absent from this world because he's a fugitive from the law. He's scared of his own creations. Serves the old codger right.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I don't get it. Your comment is senseless and prejudice. For one I was talking about faith in the religious sense and your amish comment is way out in left field.

Originally posted by Murgatroid

The serpent was subtle and lied to Eve -- beguiled (deceived) her. Had Eve understood God's real love and the real consequences of obeying Satan, she would not have done it. Satan denied the consequences and made evil appear to be good. ~ Gen. 3:1-5,13

Genesis is blatant propaganda against the female-earth based religions; it names the serpent as evil, who in most all other cultures and traditions is a revered symbol of the earth and rebirth. it blames the woman for original sin and condemns birth and menstruation as punishment for her crime. it creates a male as the first being, and woman as an afterthought. and in the greatest of all blasphemies it names God as a HE....

it is this thinking that has allowed the wanton pillaging of the earth, the countless indignities perpetrated upon women and has condemned us to this unbalanced patriarchal - "my sword is bigger than your sword" - BS we must endure everyday.

the only God that is immoral is the God that hates. i will leave that for the readers to say which God is so keen on fire & brimstone.



may the Goddess & the God & the Great Mystery beyond forgive us... for we know not what we are doing.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Is the OP challenging whether we like it or not? Does that not disregard any thoughts whatsoever because the decision has already been made?

If that is the challenge then I ask you this, if me liking it or not makes no difference then it should make no difference in whether or not God is moral or immoral. Do you want me to say whether I like it or not, or are you asking me if God is immoral? What are you asking us here? Do you want my opinion? No, I do not think so because you have stated your view as the preeminent choice. It is not whether God is moral or immoral, it is you telling me to like it or not. That is completely different than just asking "Is God immoral?"

Whether you like it or not, my decision is that God is not. Who cares about your opinion or my opinion, it is just telling me to like it or not. Would you like to frame a debate or just force an opinion? What would you like to know? Whether God is immoral or if I accept your statement?

Let's have a discussion on "like it or not". That is the thesis of your argument.

Come on guys, if you look, and look, and look, you can find something of value in the OP. It's FUNNY.

"God is immoral." To say that you have to say he falls short of moral values. But whose moral values?

If God makes the moral values, how can you say He breaks them? He says this is the rule, and it is.

If man makes the moral values, you're saying that what we fallible, temporary, creatures have come up with to govern our own short lives is binding on and superior to the God who made us. Time to sober up.

If the OP is attacking the Christian belief system and conception of God (which he appears to be doing) he is fighting with a sword made of soap bubbles and using a shield made of gas station tissue paper.

I'm still smiling about the silliness.

reply to post by charles1952

If God makes the moral values, how can you say He breaks them? He says this is the rule, and it is.

Assuming the Christian God is real, and is the God of everything. Then you're right, it's his (always funny to hear God has gender) game and it's silly to say he 'falls short'.

Assuming this God is real and the Bible represents him... then many humans clearly have a moral compass gone incredibly astray. Myself for instance, I find the stoning to death of a bride based on her not being a virgin to be an immoral act. The Christian God does not. One of us is wrong. Clearly it's me. Assuming again, the Bible really represents the Creator.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

Dear Lucid Lunacy,

Thanks for joining in. You've got a good point, may I look at it a little? I know I'm going to sound weasely, but that's not my intention.

Assuming this God is real and the Bible represents him

I'm not trying to be insulting by repeating what you already know, but the Old Testament was the story, history, songs, and rules of conduct for the early Jews. It wasn't addressed primarily to us (but it is valuable for several reasons).

In the New Testament, Jesus said, basically, "Hey! Listen up! It's time to take this God thing big time, I mean, cover the world kind of big time. We've got to hit the people that have never even heard of Jews. So, here's what you do, and here's what you tell 'em. You got any questions, just ask the Spirit or the leaders I've left in my place. Now, get to it."

There's a distinction there that is easy to miss. I've never been Jewish, so I figure their dietary laws and things never applied to me. We're living in a new era. This stoning of non-virgins thing? Jesus set that straight when He told the woman "Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more."

If I've screwed up and missed your point, please tell me and let me have another whack at it.

With respect,
Charles1952