Like it or not, God is immoral.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Is the OP challenging whether we like it or not? Does that not disregard any thoughts whatsoever because the decision has already been made?

If that is the challenge then I ask you this, if me liking it or not makes no difference then it should make no difference in whether or not God is moral or immoral. Do you want me to say whether I like it or not, or are you asking me if God is immoral? What are you asking us here? Do you want my opinion? No, I do not think so because you have stated your view as the preeminent choice. It is not whether God is moral or immoral, it is you telling me to like it or not. That is completely different than just asking "Is God immoral?"

Whether you like it or not, my decision is that God is not. Who cares about your opinion or my opinion, it is just telling me to like it or not. Would you like to frame a debate or just force an opinion? What would you like to know? Whether God is immoral or if I accept your statement?

Let's have a discussion on "like it or not". That is the thesis of your argument.

No it is not. It is a figure of speech. At least to me but then I am French, not English, so I will bow to any who know the language better than I do.

You say that God is moral.

Show your reasons for disagreeing with the conclusions of the court scene or chose some other violent act shown as emanating from your God that you think moral and yes, let us debate.

A E is my favorite as it shows God actively murdering then through negligence but I am open to whatever incident you care to name.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by charles1952
Come on guys, if you look, and look, and look, you can find something of value in the OP. It's FUNNY.

"God is immoral." To say that you have to say he falls short of moral values. But whose moral values?

If God makes the moral values, how can you say He breaks them? He says this is the rule, and it is.

If man makes the moral values, you're saying that what we fallible, temporary, creatures have come up with to govern our own short lives is binding on and superior to the God who made us. Time to sober up.

If the OP is attacking the Christian belief system and conception of God (which he appears to be doing) he is fighting with a sword made of soap bubbles and using a shield made of gas station tissue paper.

I'm still smiling about the silliness.

And even with such poor weapons, I have only gotten one willing to actually discuss an issue while the other so called believers tuck their tails and run.

How about you.

How about a general question on morality.

Will a moral man or God focus their morality towards others or towards themselves? Self-centered or other centered IOW?
Should both man and God be under the same rule on this or not?

How does your morality work? Is it self-centered or does it center on others ahead of yourself?

Regards
DL

reply to post by g0dhims3lf


Senseless and prejudice? I was simply making the point that if "only those with faith will understand" that's the same as saying, "Because I said so," or "Because the Bible says so".

There is absolutely no logical basis, and therefore no reason to give you any credence. At all.

reply to post by charles1952

"God is immoral." To say that you have to say he falls short of moral values. But whose moral values?

Unless you desire to outright accuse all of our biology and history books of lying to us, as well as the teachers and scientists who promote them (a hefty allegation), then you'll agree that before mankind arrived on the scene, animals were not what we would call "moral". All of their actions depended upon their survival, or perhaps familiarity. Familiarity aids survival, so yes, it's all survival.

Then we showed up, and suddenly, there's morals. It doesn't take rocket science to realize who invented morals.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

No, Unity Consciousness would see all the planes of being at once. Earth is like a single, average-sized neuron in a brain the size of Texas. Everything is connected on different levels and different places, and in Unity Consciousness, we can see it all.

There's technically over 100 different dimensions, corresponding with every musical scale...and while that may sound nuts, think of it this way: our entire color spectrum, our entire mathematics system, all of our geometry and music and matter, is all based on the same basic structure - the Fruit of Life.

Look it up, before you tell me I'm wrong.

I would not say you were wrong without having some kind of proof to back me up.

Like any definitive statement, it is to you to show or prove your claim. Not to me to disprove it. No logical fallacies now my friend.

I have claimed to have contacted a cosmic consciousness. No proof to show I am afraid as is always the case with such so let me just give this as an anecdotal rendering. It speaks to the sizing you see in the universe.

A cosmic consciousness has been described as encompassing all of space and time. My comment is that from within it, I could no more see how large it was as you would be able to tell how big a house was from inside a sealed room within it.

This speaks to your view that we have over 100 dimensions. From inside ours, if analogous to a house, how could you possibly know how many houses are in the town?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

The most effort I've ever put into a post enumerating the flaws and errors that define "God".

It's about time people stop letting their fear control how they think...or rather, how MUCH they think.

edit on 13-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Yes but the Stockholm syndrome that many theists have is a big part of their indoctrination and brainwashing.

We must continue to try to save the poor souls but it is sometimes a tough go as they fear to even think.

A shame to waste such good human talent.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by eleven44
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

How could We, Beings so far removed from God that we see ourselves as something separate from God, possibly know enough to judge God being moral or immoral?

Everything is temporarily infinite. All That Is is a series of continuously changing circumstances and outcomes. All interrelated, all intertwined. Even 'immoral' acts cause others to take action with 'moral' acts. Many times the 'immoral' acts are THE reason for others to wake up, turn to Love, turn to God and continue to act morally towards human kind.

God Is. There is nothing BUT God. Sure, God is Immoral, but God is also Moral. God made Good. God made Bad. God made Hate. God made Love. God made You. God made Me.

All we are here for is to temporarily dance through the physical realm of God's thoughts while we obtain experiences and knowledge and work our way back from whence we came.

But for anyone (myself included) to think we have 'figured this all out,' or understand how God works...and then to LABEL how God works as 'immoral'....well that takes having your head pretty far up your own ___

edit on 12-9-2012 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

Not a bad view.
You judge yourself separate from God where I do not because I am a Gnostic Christian but other than that we are on the same page.

That is why in the O P I stated ---God as described in the bible. We cannot judge God for the reasons you state but we can judge the God depicted in scriptures and judge that mythical God.

So, as depicted, is God moral or not?

You follow a good path now show me if you are on the right one.

Regards
DL

I am not Gnostic Chrsitian (but do say that with respect), but the reason I say we are separated from God is only because our mind (our ego) has separated us. Imo, this was part of 'the fall' when we got kicked out of the Garden. We most certainly are still a part OF God, we just see ourselves as individuals living individual lives. We too often forget how interconnected and perfect everything is. It's all Illusions (Beautiful, glorious Illusions.)

We live our life here to remember how to become One with God again. ('And just like a fragrance and its flower are One, so must each of us and our Father become.')

"Moral" vs "Immoral" stem from our lack of understanding. From our Ego. From our Judgement. But again, who are we to Judge what is or is not immoral? People die every day. Does this make God immoral? Should people ONLY die peacefully at an old age? Should no body ever fall down and scrape their knee?

In the wild (which we think we are separate from as well) populations are thinned before they can grow and thrive. If there are few rabbits and too many wolves, then the wolves will begin to die out from lack of food. (Is this immoral?) Yet, once there are less wolves there will become more rabbits. But, now that there are more rabbits there is more food for more wolves to grow and populate. It's a cycle. Is any of that immoral?

Are film directors Immoral just because their film may have death or punishment or hard lessons? Of course not. (That's not to say there aren't immoral film directors!) But if we consider this life like a film that we have forgotten that we are watching and started to believe we are living, then we will start to make judgements about the film and it's creator instead of just sitting back, observing and enjoying the experience.


(I want to make a note that it is possible that none of this is true. It just so happens to be what I believe.)

reply to post by Greatest I am

some people cannot decide their fate with their own free will, because they die very young.

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by eleven44
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

How could We, Beings so far removed from God that we see ourselves as something separate from God, possibly know enough to judge God being moral or immoral?

Everything is temporarily infinite. All That Is is a series of continuously changing circumstances and outcomes. All interrelated, all intertwined. Even 'immoral' acts cause others to take action with 'moral' acts. Many times the 'immoral' acts are THE reason for others to wake up, turn to Love, turn to God and continue to act morally towards human kind.

God Is. There is nothing BUT God. Sure, God is Immoral, but God is also Moral. God made Good. God made Bad. God made Hate. God made Love. God made You. God made Me.

All we are here for is to temporarily dance through the physical realm of God's thoughts while we obtain experiences and knowledge and work our way back from whence we came.

But for anyone (myself included) to think we have 'figured this all out,' or understand how God works...and then to LABEL how God works as 'immoral'....well that takes having your head pretty far up your own ___

edit on 12-9-2012 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

Not a bad view.
You judge yourself separate from God where I do not because I am a Gnostic Christian but other than that we are on the same page.

That is why in the O P I stated ---God as described in the bible. We cannot judge God for the reasons you state but we can judge the God depicted in scriptures and judge that mythical God.

So, as depicted, is God moral or not?

You follow a good path now show me if you are on the right one.

Regards
DL

I am not Gnostic Chrsitian (but do say that with respect), but the reason I say we are separated from God is only because our mind (our ego) has separated us. Imo, this was part of 'the fall' when we got kicked out of the Garden. We most certainly are still a part OF God, we just see ourselves as individuals living individual lives. We too often forget how interconnected and perfect everything is. It's all Illusions (Beautiful, glorious Illusions.)

We live our life here to remember how to become One with God again. ('And just like a fragrance and its flower are One, so must each of us and our Father become.')

"Moral" vs "Immoral" stem from our lack of understanding. From our Ego. From our Judgement. But again, who are we to Judge what is or is not immoral? People die every day. Does this make God immoral? Should people ONLY die peacefully at an old age? Should no body ever fall down and scrape their knee?

In the wild (which we think we are separate from as well) populations are thinned before they can grow and thrive. If there are few rabbits and too many wolves, then the wolves will begin to die out from lack of food. (Is this immoral?) Yet, once there are less wolves there will become more rabbits. But, now that there are more rabbits there is more food for more wolves to grow and populate. It's a cycle. Is any of that immoral?

Are film directors Immoral just because their film may have death or punishment or hard lessons? Of course not. (That's not to say there aren't immoral film directors!) But if we consider this life like a film that we have forgotten that we are watching and started to believe we are living, then we will start to make judgements about the film and it's creator instead of just sitting back, observing and enjoying the experience.


(I want to make a note that it is possible that none of this is true. It just so happens to be what I believe.)

I have no problem seeing things somewhat as you do. I give more reality to reality but have no problem with your stance of a wonderful illusion. It is. In fact, it is evolving perfection or if you prefer, always the best that things can be at any point in time.

I like to use the term for us as evolving perfection till the time we join the Godhead. Otherwise, a perfect God who cannot absorb, us becomes a stagnant pool of information and our souls and consciousness would be useless to the universe.
Evolving, the perfection of whatever God was, to whatever God will be, means we have to think this way.

Unless you see God as somehow losing his initial perfection.
This is not allowed in a perfect God’s repertoire.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle.
What do you think?

Candide.

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

www.youtube.com...

This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

The only other differences in our thinking is that I see us all as a part of nature. Not on the outside looking in.

And this.
“But again, who are we to Judge what is or is not immoral?”

If we did not judge good and evil then we would not be putting rapist or murderers in jail as we would not judge them guilty or as having to be kept from the good population. We must judge then for self-defence.

You know this I am sure because I cannot see you sitting back while your wife is raped and not judge it evil and do as you should with the rapist.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

some people cannot decide their fate with their own free will, because they die very young.

True but if any God condemned any under the age of reason or those not able to discern good and evil then he would not only be immoral but much worse. Right?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

How do we know what the best end is? We don't even know our purpose. And even if we did, how are we to know what serves that best purpose when we can't even see more than 50 years into the future? Less than that, if we're not relying on pure speculation...

You know this I am sure because I cannot see you sitting back while your wife is raped and not judge it evil and do as you should with the rapist.

You've hit it on the head. There is no such thing as good and evil, there is only how we feel about it. When our interests meet in conflict, that is when we decide who deserves more. And that is when we decide whether it is good or evil. In other words, we judge based on what we want or what we like.

Mankind is ultimately a selfish species, and that is why it has chosen Christianity - because you get all of the benefits for none of the work.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by akushla99


But, my short answer is NO...God is not immoral...

Satisfied?

A99

Thanks.

So all the times God is shown as either directly or indirectly killing children and babies because of what their parents have done are justified in your eyes. Right?

If you lived in those days and were asked to smash a babies skull against a rock you would would you?

Regards
DL

WRONG

You did not read what I wrote...patently!

...or you do not understand plain english...

Here it is again...read it...

"You are using a misinterpreted interpretation to come to a conclusion; a conclusion (incidentally), promoted by fundies (of most major faiths - think...Islamic fundies), that presents you with a vision of an omnipotent, omniscient, all-creating, all-encompassing, timeless being...who is so conflicted in its all-pervading potency, that it would pit Itself against itself, and then (in some cosmic schizophrenic episode), require its creations (essentially itself, if you follow the hidden parts of the text) to avail themselves of thier own salvation from itself...

In the EXTREME...this scenario...DOES NOT MAKE SENSE...and let me be clear, God is not an idiot...which is what is mooted in this scenario...a scenario you (at some level believe) give credit to, in the original thread question..."

A99

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

How do we know what the best end is? We don't even know our purpose. And even if we did, how are we to know what serves that best purpose when we can't even see more than 50 years into the future? Less than that, if we're not relying on pure speculation...

You know this I am sure because I cannot see you sitting back while your wife is raped and not judge it evil and do as you should with the rapist.

You've hit it on the head. There is no such thing as good and evil, there is only how we feel about it. When our interests meet in conflict, that is when we decide who deserves more. And that is when we decide whether it is good or evil. In other words, we judge based on what we want or what we like.

Mankind is ultimately a selfish species, and that is why it has chosen Christianity - because you get all of the benefits for none of the work.

This may have some of the truth for why the West went Christian but only as a continuation of other selfish acts but it is understandable as selfishness aids in survival. If you and I lived way back when, we might have made the same choice but in light of today's mentality and our knowledge of morality, Christianity must change or die.

If you recognize as I do that Constantine forced the Trinity concept down Christianity's throat by force, for his own self-aggrandizement, then these two clips show with some truth how the West became Christian.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

------------------

As to your "How do we know what the best end is? We don't even know our purpose. And even if we did, how are we to know what serves that best purpose when we can't even see more than 50 years into the future? Less than that, if we're not relying on pure speculation..."

If you cannot refute the notion that all is always as good or the best it can be at all points in time then your questions and concern disappear as you have to give that condition to all things at all times. I call it evolving perfection.

Start at your birth. You were the best possible outcome of your DNA and all other conditions at hand.
How do you know what the best end for you was at that point min time? It was whatever was there.
From that point in time, you evolved and learned at the only possible pace that you could have given all the conditions at hand and those conditions were the best that they could possibly be. That evolution continued right till now. Whatever now is at hand. See what I mean?

What do you mean you do not know your purpose?
I understand your situation but fail to see the problem.
Your purpose till now has been to get to this point in time or you would have been doing something else. If you feel that you need some purpose other than what you are doing, then chose whatever is possible that you want and go for it. Remember though that all the conditions must be at hand for the purpose that you decide on.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by akushla99


But, my short answer is NO...God is not immoral...

Satisfied?

A99

Thanks.

So all the times God is shown as either directly or indirectly killing children and babies because of what their parents have done are justified in your eyes. Right?

If you lived in those days and were asked to smash a babies skull against a rock you would would you?

Regards
DL

WRONG

You did not read what I wrote...patently!

...or you do not understand plain english...

Here it is again...read it...

"You are using a misinterpreted interpretation to come to a conclusion; a conclusion (incidentally), promoted by fundies (of most major faiths - think...Islamic fundies), that presents you with a vision of an omnipotent, omniscient, all-creating, all-encompassing, timeless being...who is so conflicted in its all-pervading potency, that it would pit Itself against itself, and then (in some cosmic schizophrenic episode), require its creations (essentially itself, if you follow the hidden parts of the text) to avail themselves of thier own salvation from itself...

In the EXTREME...this scenario...DOES NOT MAKE SENSE...and let me be clear, God is not an idiot...which is what is mooted in this scenario...a scenario you (at some level believe) give credit to, in the original thread question..."

A99

So God is moral but that does not make sense so he is not. Got you.
Good English that even this Frenchman can understand. Not.
Perhaps you are in some cosmic schizophrenic episode.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

if there is a almighty god, this god should give account to human kind about the evil and unjust things in this world.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ

 

All those who do not understand either for lack of actually reading or the lack of intelligent discernment.

God interacting with humans? Hahahahaha..... You don't even know how and when he is interacting so how can you describe him interacting at all?

You are seeing God out of the eyes of someone else, you do not personally know him!!!!

You know no more than Greatest does. So how can you say he is wrong? Perhaps he is right, and we just don't know it? We cannot prove him wrong nor right, so there's no point in arguing, is there?

The only proof you have is the Bible, and I think we can all agree that doesn't really cut it. If the court won't accept it, neither can we.

Don't put words in my mouth... Never said he was wrong. We are dealing with HALF TRUTHS. How many times can I say this before anyone gets it?

Saying God is immoral means has morals in the first place. His morals are obviously not human. Just my opinion.

reply to post by Greatest I am


You say you are a gnostic Christian, however your posts only up until recently do they even reflect Gnosticism.

You speak about the Godhead and seem like you know some of the early history of how the religion sprung up.

What confuses me is how you seem to be angered with God and continue to place judgement on the creator time and time again in threads including this one.

Why is that?

If I were to have to pick a religion to be a part of it would be the same as you, but I choose not to lable such.

As a teen I connected with Gnosticism and have sense, but I just can't stick to one because I find half truths in all of them. That's just how I SEE it in my mind.

I have an analytical mind whereas I have pieced them all together, all myths, and see where they connect, he ce my signature.

I see Jesus reflecting the Mind in all his incarnations.

So be it.

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

if there is a almighty god, this god should give account to human kind about the evil and unjust things in this world.

Absolutely.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by MamaJ

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ

 

All those who do not understand either for lack of actually reading or the lack of intelligent discernment.

God interacting with humans? Hahahahaha..... You don't even know how and when he is interacting so how can you describe him interacting at all?

You are seeing God out of the eyes of someone else, you do not personally know him!!!!

You know no more than Greatest does. So how can you say he is wrong? Perhaps he is right, and we just don't know it? We cannot prove him wrong nor right, so there's no point in arguing, is there?

The only proof you have is the Bible, and I think we can all agree that doesn't really cut it. If the court won't accept it, neither can we.

Don't put words in my mouth... Never said he was wrong. We are dealing with HALF TRUTHS. How many times can I say this before anyone gets it?

Saying God is immoral means has morals in the first place. His morals are obviously not human. Just my opinion.

What information formed this opinion and do you think it is knowledge or just a default position because you do not know?

If you do know, where did you get this knowledge?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

You say you are a gnostic Christian, however your posts only up until recently do they even reflect Gnosticism.

You speak about the Godhead and seem like you know some of the early history of how the religion sprung up.

What confuses me is how you seem to be angered with God and continue to place judgement on the creator time and time again in threads including this one.

Why is that?

If I were to have to pick a religion to be a part of it would be the same as you, but I choose not to lable such.

As a teen I connected with Gnosticism and have sense, but I just can't stick to one because I find half truths in all of them. That's just how I SEE it in my mind.

I have an analytical mind whereas I have pieced them all together, all myths, and see where they connect, he ce my signature.

I see Jesus reflecting the Mind in all his incarnations.

So be it.

"Why is that? "

Because I have a social conscience and it is an evil immoral religion.
It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

www.youtube.com...

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
www.youtube.com...

Jesus Camp 1of 9
www.youtube.com...

Promoting death to Gays.
www.youtube.com...

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

------------------------------

"As a teen I connected with Gnosticism and have sense, but I just can't stick to one because I find half truths in all of them. That's just how I SEE it in my mind. "

And that is the way it should be. Some wisdom can be found in all of the books of wisdom, bibles and philosophical writings. Nothing wrong in choosing the best from each in building your paradigm. That is what I dis and was rewarded with apotheosis for my efforts.

All Gods should be thought of as myths until one is lucky, or unlucky depending on how you look at things, to force his apotheosis.

I do not have all the pieces yet and hope I never do as then I would be idol worshiping what I found.
I am starting to confirm my view that all religions evolved from the same source.

This is long but it adds to that view.

www.youtube.com...

FMPOV, if one can make sense of the Eden myth, then the rest of the true theology that the Godhead has formed will be known.

This clip has given me a new perspective that I find compelling and is leading to the possibility that religions were created to control sexual mores in finite communities so that overpopulation would not disturb the organization of those demographic entities/cities. This may actually be why temple prostitutes were the first prostitutes. My theories are not complete yet though but the logic seems sound.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL