Who Controls Our Children? /The secret War Against America

reply to post by Annee


my sympathies Annee.

Originally posted by OldSchoolMom
reply to post by Annee

 

my sympathies Annee.

Thank you.

This is my first real thread so I am not sure how to shut this down. It looks like it has run it's course.
Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to add your stories, thoughts, videos I really appreciate the patience for the minor errors i made when making this thread, It was not intentional, and thanks to those who helped with that issue as well. You were all great and look forward to getting to know you. Cheers

If there is a moderator available, will you please close this thread, Thank you

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple

So to answer you question of "Who Controls Our Children" The answer is we do. The parents.

Awesome!

Thank you.

I starred your star.

Still in Phoenix?

Originally posted by OldSchoolMom

Yes, I see that you missed the point of the information included in the op.

I do get your point and I agree with it. I just come at it from the angle that I don't understand why others don't get it, and I go from there. It's a bad habit of mine. I try to change peoples' minds by staying on my level when I should be more accommodating to theirs, and that in turn makes me come across as a jerk.

But all in all. I agree with you. Children are being graded based on how well they conform to the curriculum given to them, not so much by what they learn from it. I see that method being carried into adulthood as well. If you don't conform to whatever standards that the people around you have, they don't see you as being as smart as they are.

reply to post by Taupin Desciple

I try to change peoples' minds by staying on my level when I should be more accommodating to theirs, and that in turn makes me come across as a jerk. But all in all. I agree with you. Children are being graded based on how well they conform to the curriculum given to them, not so much by what they learn from it. I see that method being carried into adulthood as well. If you don't conform to whatever standards that the people around you have, they don't see you as being as smart as they are.

Ah... K I understand, I do that myself sometimes and it really can hinder communication. I see it at the angle that they are ONLY learning to conform to whatever the government sees fit.
I know you understand, I am going to give a quick example for others who might not fully get it. I will use you in my example as a parent, I hope that is ok with you.

Say for example the curriculum objective is to change all the children's attitude about our country. Say we want the attitude to be that our system of government is unfair and should be changed to help all people. I Have 20 kids (age 6) in the classroom that in order to pass this lesson and get an "A", they must have the attitude that Our system of government is unfair and should be changed to help all people.

I tell them that greedy people consume so much that other people don't even have the basics needs to live on.
During the lesson, I pile the kids on the bus and drive them through the worst neighborhood in the area and point out the poor condition (I am appealing visually to the emotions). I go through the alley and show them a homeless person sleeping against a dumpster.

Now that I have these kids sad and mad at greedy people, I will give positive reinforcement by agreeing and confirming the feelings that met my objective. Then, I will take them back to the classroom and talk about all the comforts the kids in the classroom enjoy at home. I will ask if that is fair? I will appeal to their emotions to get the desired objective met. I provoked sadness and anger at a type of people (in this case, anyone who has it comfortable), and now I have provoked guilt.
Now, most kids because they are so young will learn it is unfair for them to have more than other people. Don't worry, I will make sure they can blame their parents so they don't feel too bad because it is their parents who should know better Not once do I explain any reason why people might have more or less....that is not going to meet my objective....my objective is to change the attitude.

So, I ask the kids what can the government do to fix this problem. By asking the question the way I did, I just created the conditions in which they are permitted to find the answer. They can think of anything they want but, it must be limited to government action. The kids will naturally have a few ideas but, they will likely all include the governments action.

If there is a kid who has already learned information from his family perhaps "freedom should be what the government protects not hinders". I will challenge this child and teach him why his parents are wrong because my objective is to change this kids attitude into the attitude in the objective. I will challenge his knowledge and since I am older I can at least make him and his parents to look dumb and discourage him from straying from the opinion I just worked hard to achieve. If I can't change his attitude, he will get a "F" because he failed to demonstrate the attitude in my lesson.

Ok Taupin Desciple, you and I just went through the lesson ok. Say that kid was your kid. He comes home with a big fat "F" on his report card and a little note that just reads..."your child is failing".
What you may have taught him contradicts the school, and therefore is wrong.
In order to get an "A" your child MUST demonstrates the attitude that the system of government is unfair and should be changed to help the people.
A parent may think the grade was based on facts not attitude and punish the child for not trying to learn.
So indeed they must conform to the attitudes taught , they will conform or fail.

Thanks Taupin Desciple for allowing me to use you in the example

reply to post by OldSchoolMom


Wow, what a powerful and well said post.....it made me cry.....geez it is a mess......

I keep flashing back to a picture of my daughter getting off the school bus her first day of school, yeah I was one of those "wierdo's" that followed the bus, actually kinda sweet how many of us all did this..... we're all crying ,taking pictures....but really none of us hand a clue.....

I'm going to ask my very gifted special guy to scan this picture, I would like to share it with you all....it is a "haunting" beautiful image of a precious little girl that is getting off the school bus, going to school for the first time....of course she looks adorable...but as much as I tried to prepare her.... she also looks terrified...I don't know....mixed emotions right now....will link the pic asap.....

reply to post by OldSchoolMom

Say for example the curriculum objective is to change all the children's attitude about our country. Say we want the attitude to be that our system of government is unfair and should be changed to help all people. I Have 20 kids (age 6) in the classroom that in order to pass this lesson and get an "A", they must have the attitude that Our system of government is unfair and should be changed to help all people.

Is that what the school system is saying - or are we just 'saying' this is what it's saying?

I tell them that greedy people consume so much that other people don't even have the basics needs to live on. During the lesson, I pile the kids on the bus and drive them through the worst neighborhood in the area and point out the poor condition (I am appealing visually to the emotions). I go through the alley and show them a homeless person sleeping against a dumpster.

Wow - must be a hell of a permission slip to go on that field trip... did this ever happen for reals?

Now that I have these kids sad and mad at greedy people, I will give positive reinforcement by agreeing and confirming the feelings that met my objective. Then, I will take them back to the classroom and talk about all the comforts the kids in the classroom enjoy at home. I will ask if that is fair? I will appeal to their emotions to get the desired objective met. I provoked sadness and anger at a type of people (in this case, anyone who has it comfortable), and now I have provoked guilt.
Now, most kids because they are so young will learn it is unfair for them to have more than other people. Don't worry, I will make sure they can blame their parents so they don't feel too bad because it is their parents who should know better Not once do I explain any reason why people might have more or less....that is not going to meet my objective....my objective is to change the attitude.

So, I ask the kids what can the government do to fix this problem. By asking the question the way I did, I just created the conditions in which they are permitted to find the answer. They can think of anything they want but, it must be limited to government action. The kids will naturally have a few ideas but, they will likely all include the governments action.

Isn't all that just another version of what you're doing here in this thread?

What would you teach them about this world OSM? I'm very curious

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I was giving an example of what is being taught "attitudes and beliefs", how it is taught, and the grade depends on if the child has met the objective. The example demonstrates how a child is taught to have the attitudes, beliefs that are taught to them.
All teachers are familiar with Bloom's handbook:

Bloom explains: “The emphasis of this Handbook is on obtaining evidence on the extent to which desired and intended behaviors have been learned by the student.”

Note that it is not information that is learned, it is “behavior” that is learned.

That was the point I was making in the example I posted. That is what the children are receiving grades for.

Here is a link to tools and methods used to train your child like an animal, not to read and write but to have the attitudes, feelings, beliefs and feelings approved by the state. If your family has instilled anything in your child that does not meet the objectives of the state, the child will perform (obey) to the state objectives or fail.
Learning strategies based on Bloom taxonomy

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


actually those "field trips" do occur.....not so much now, I don't think...but when I was in high school, 80's...we did go on a field trip to ethinic markets....Chinese, Indian and Mexican markets...these were definately "tough" neighborhoods.....and I remember feeling guilty and vulnerable.....I guess our kids now are stage 2 or 3? I don't know......

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

actually those "field trips" do occur.....not so much now, I don't think...but when I was in high school, 80's...we did go on a field trip to ethinic markets....Chinese, Indian and Mexican markets...these were definately "tough" neighborhoods.....and I remember feeling guilty and vulnerable.....I guess our kids now are stage 2 or 3? I don't know......

And why is that is bad. What is wrong about learning other cultures and beliefs? Did you think it was bad before someone put it in your head that it was bad?

Have you ever seen Carl Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot"? www.youtube.com...

How can anyone think their little pin point place on earth is so important? So much more important then some other pin point place on earth? Or the whole of all?

What is your agenda? What is your neighbors agenda? What is your companies agenda? What is the guy who runs the Mini-Mart's agenda?

Everyone has an agenda. Someone says "if we do this and that - - it will affect this and that". Is "this and that" really happening? Or is someone who believes it is happening - - - reading into it what they want?

reply to post by Annee

And why is that is bad. What is wrong about learning other cultures and beliefs? Did you think it was bad before someone put it in your head that it was bad?

You seem to be missing the point. There is nothing bad with learning about other cultures and beliefs of course. It is one thing to explore various cultures and common beliefs, it is another thing entirely to train the child how they should feel about it, what attitudes they must have about it. The child should be given factual information as fact, and be informed when something is merely a theory or presumption and the child should be left to form his or her attitudes and beliefs.

I took a multicultural diversity class in college just a couple years back. One issue that stood out to me was that when we discussed slavery, the lesson portrayed slavery as a unique thing originating in America by white people. This of course is a serious distortion of the history of slavery in our world. The lesson implied that it was white man who originated slavery. Which when coupled with other lessons given in the course...gave the impression that it is white man who do all the evil in the world.

By leaving out the many times in history that slavery was prevalent and the real circumstances that have led to slavery throughout history, we mislead the children to have a negative attitude about a particular race rather than understanding the conditions that effect all humankind. If the class was to create a tolerance for all cultures and races, how is it that it has been creating feelings that further divide the races and cultures? I argue that it is because the purpose of education today is not to teach a child to think but, to teach the child to have the attitudes, feelings and beliefs that serve the state's interests not the child's.

I don't want to be rude to you Annee but, I don't find any benefit in putting forth any further effort in trying to help you understand. I see little effort on your part to even consider the legitimacy of the claims that have been made in this thread. I hope the best for you and yours. peace

Originally posted by OldSchoolMom
reply to post by Annee

 

And why is that is bad. What is wrong about learning other cultures and beliefs? Did you think it was bad before someone put it in your head that it was bad?

You seem to be missing the point. There is nothing bad with learning about other cultures and beliefs of course. It is one thing to explore various cultures and common beliefs, it is another thing entirely to train the child how they should feel about it, what attitudes they must have about it. The child should be given factual information as fact, and be informed when something is merely a theory or presumption and the child should be left to form his or her attitudes and beliefs.

I am not missing the point. You are taking it to the extreme. The extreme is what you are choosing to believe.

Do you have actual government documentation stating schools are being used to promote socialism?

Charlotte Iserbyt - - as far as I can tell - - is "reporting" on what she saw. Now did she actually make copies of these documents?

I "read the words" - - - I do not interpret them in the same mind set as you.

Originally posted by OldSchoolMom
One issue that stood out to me was that when we discussed slavery, the lesson portrayed slavery as a unique thing originating in America by white people. This of course is a serious distortion of the history of slavery in our world. The lesson implied that it was white man who originated slavery.

When you teach American history - - you teach how slavery happened in America. A young child does not need to go beyond that.

Middle school tends to teach American government.

High school tends to teach World Government.

At what age and where would you like to interject the extensity of the worlds involvement of slavery and its different categories?

Most children in America are brought up in a religion. Religion is full of stories of slavery. I'm pretty sure most American children are already knowledgeable that slavery has been around in many forms since the beginning of man.

We're talking public schools - - which have had major funding cuts. If anyone thinks teachers teach for the paycheck - - they're nuts.

reply to post by OldSchoolMom

I don't want to be rude to you Annee but, I don't find any benefit in putting forth any further effort in trying to help you understand. I see little effort on your part to even consider the legitimacy of the claims that have been made in this thread. I hope the best for you and yours. peace

What are you afraid of OSM? You just want to drop your load and run?

This is a place for back and forth...you can't seem to accept that some people won't just accept what you have to say hook line and sinker. It seems to show that you're only here to propagandize - not share or learn

Nobody is under any obligation to accept what you're saying. Why are you here if not for polite and intelligent debate?

reply to post by MountainLaurel

...we did go on a field trip to ethinic markets....Chinese, Indian and Mexican markets...these were definately "tough" neighborhoods.....and I remember feeling guilty and vulnerable....

Did they take you to see the ethnic people in the tough neighborhoods to make you feel bad for them - or to feel guilty and vulnerable?

reply to post by OldSchoolMom

I was giving an example of what is being taught "attitudes and beliefs", how it is taught, and the grade depends on if the child has met the objective. The example demonstrates how a child is taught to have the attitudes, beliefs that are taught to them.

Your example is not exactly neutral - but let's skip past that

Your example demonstrates how you might manipulate children if it were up to you. What I was asking (in my own way) was - is this in fact what the schools have been doing?

If you're going to make an accusation - you might at least provide us with what you believe to be a genuine example of something you've witnessed in real life

Bloom explains: “The emphasis of this Handbook is on obtaining evidence on the extent to which desired and intended behaviors have been learned by the student.”

What does Mr. Bloom mean by desired and intended behaviors... do you think?

Note that it is not information that is learned, it is “behavior” that is learned.

Which brings me back to a question I asked earlier - what would you teach them? And then - how would you teach them?

Here is a link to tools and methods used to train your child like an animal, not to read and write but to have the attitudes, feelings, beliefs and feelings approved by the state.

Do you believe the school should be absolved of all responsibility for teaching a child how to think?

Is the world not a subject? History? How do we teach a history they can comprehend with out also allowing them to learn how to process that information?

You think history should be sanitized for their protection? Is there something wrong with teaching critical thinking? If not, then how would you accomplish this?

Is deductive reasoning OK? You know - we chimps are pretty famous for it... :-)

If your family has instilled anything in your child that does not meet the objectives of the state, the child will perform (obey) to the state objectives or fail.

So: curses state-run school system - you are destroying the mind of my child...?

:-)

What's your point OSM? Come on - spill the beans - I know you can do it

Also - really wishing you would tell us what word in that conversation you were having tipped you off to the whole sordid mess

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

What are you afraid of OSM? You just want to drop your load and run?

This is a place for back and forth...you can't seem to accept that some people won't just accept what you have to say hook line and sinker. It seems to show that you're only here to propagandize - not share or learn

Nobody is under any obligation to accept what you're saying. Why are you here if not for polite and intelligent debate?

LOL Thanks.

I'm on a conspiracy site - - obviously I don't believe everything is straight forward.

I actually think school has come along way in addressing issues young children have or may have in everyday life. The "3 Rs" may have worked in simpler times - - - but are antiquated in the more complex life of kids today.

Multiculturalism wasn't needed in my white middle class Christian '50s neighborhood. If you were Jewish - - keep your mouth shut and participate in all the Christmas "hoopla" - - and they did. That was and is wrong. It's something that really pains me today. Knowing some of my classmates were Jewish and could not celebrate that.

Today - if a child from Timbuktu - - is in class - - he has his own file and something about his culture has to be included in the curriculum. How is that wrong?

I don't know what geographic location is being targeted as kids not having independent thought - - it sure isn't here - where I am. My granddaughter has no problem speaking her mind and what she thinks - - nor do her friends.

As far as following a program - - its the practicality of 30+ kids in a class.

America has choices. No one has to educate their child in public school. We are fortunate this country made it law that every child has access to an education. Is it perfect? NO. No where does it state the child will get the exact education demanded by the parent.

My generation was forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance with the change to Under God. Now that's real government propaganda. Today no child is required to say it or stand up for it. Some schools have completely eliminated it.

Some people's fear of anything - even remotely - related to Socialism behavior - - goes to the extreme IMO.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

What are you afraid of OSM? You just want to drop your load and run?

I am sorry I do not understand. Maybe it would help if you explained to me what OSM means. I am not the type to "run" darling.... I don't know everything or claim to... help me out and be clear when you ask me a question, it helps if you don't assume I know what OSM is. Spell it out for me ok. Thanks

reply to post by OldSchoolMom

I am sorry I do not understand. Maybe it would help if you explained to me what OSM means.

OSM - Old School Marm

:-)

I am not the type to "run" darling.... I don't know everything or claim to... help me out and be clear when you ask me a question, it helps if you don't assume I know what OSM is. Spell it out for me ok. Thanks

From now on I will spell everything out - promise

Now - be a doll and check out my extremely specific and extraordinarily simple bunch of questions just below this post you're responding to now

thanks sugar!

:-)