Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Yet another example of trying to compare a developed human compared to a zygote. We have gone over this already.

But if you want to make family planning choices for other people, you should be prepared to pay for that disabled child, since it is so easy.

reply to post by nixie_nox

The demographics don't lie. Minorities get abortions at twice the rate or more than white women, and most are low income. Those minorities that are born, have a much lower chance at an education or success.

Could you link the source please?

---

My source tells otherwise, Abortion by Race - USA

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by nixie_nox

 

The demographics don't lie. Minorities get abortions at twice the rate or more than white women, and most are low income. Those minorities that are born, have a much lower chance at an education or success.

Could you link the source please?

---

My source tells otherwise, Abortion by Race - USA

In addition to that, I'd also like a source for her claim of:

And women do keep babies in this situation, and they are usually running from county to county, collecting welfare benefits, to survive, and not get killed by an enraged male who is the father.

These are both complete hyperbole to justify her belief that murdering babies is a good thing.

Originally posted by OutKast SearcherWhy are you ignoring that a human zygote is human...it has human DNA...it will always form into a human...not a fish.

The skin cells(or any other cell in the human body) we shed all day long have human DNA also but they can't live without the rest of the body to support feed them nutrients - just like a developing zygote or fetus.

Should my skin cells have rights too? I hope I don't go to jail for the booger I put under my seat in grade school.

Until it becomes an organism capable of living without depending on another body to support all its functions it’s not much "alive" for a person to have rights they have to be alive. You can not violate the rights of a dead person - they don't have any.

I suppose when I shower or trim my nails I am killing a lot of cells that contain human DNA. I am choosing to kill them for the sake of my hygiene.

Who will support the legions and legions of unwanted babies BTW? You are free to give to all the charities you want but as a taxpayer I want none of the burden of the unwanted masses of children. I have a child - I wanted one. We planned it and while financially we could likely support four or so and still pay for college with some creative financing. There would be no more Safaris to South Africa or trips to Italy but they'd be cared for.

However, I'd rather spoil one than simply "provide" for many. That is my pursuit of happiness and every dollar the government forcibly takes to underwrite the “needs” for the unwanted children of others is an infringement on my liberty.

I think our treasury is operating at a deficit last time I checked.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by nixie_nox

 

You claim that financial reasons are not the reason to have an abortion. I am telling you it is.

That is your opinion...I don't think financial reasons justify murder...but you are free to believe so.

You have yet to answer my question, are you willing to pay for all these women to raise children? ARe you willing to give me $235,000 dollars to raise a child?

You keep avoiding that question.

Some men believe that marriage entitles them to sex, your spousal rape example, doesn't mean it is right, but it is what they beleive.

Are you actually condoning it?

You want to remove family planning decisions from women and cite that finances isn't a valid reason for it. Since you want to force women to have babies they can't raise, I am showing you that it isn't that easy.

And women just can't resist their sexual urges...they MUST have sex huh???

I see what this really is, it is the old witch hunt, it is all the woman's fault. Last paragraph you acknowledge that men feel entitled to spousal sex, but the next you say women can't control their urges?

Women can't control always control getting pregnant either.

I want to force people to take responsibility for their actions without murdering a child to wipe away their irresponsible behavior.

Yet you don't want to take any responsiblity for children that people don't want. You want people to have them, but you don't care what quality of life, the status of their education or health, after that. That is no better than abortion my dear.

I'm married...me and my wife have sex all the time...for some odd reason, we only get pregnant when we intend to. It's really not that hard...unless you are saying women are complete sex crazed addicts and morons to boot.

Spoken like the privelaged middle class who has no idea what it is like to be poor or a minority.

And the majority of people that have abortions and unintended pregnancies, may not have a choice about sex to begin with, don't have access to family planning, and even if they did, they may not be able to afford it. Many don't have cars or transportation. They rely on public transporation which doesn't necessarily drop them off at a family planning center.

Even middle class struggles to pay for birth control. Many insurances don't cover it. Much less the poor who dont' have insurance at all.

lets not forget that many of these people probably got inadequate family planning education. If you think people are not stupid about it, you just need to listen to Love Line on saturday nights.

Over half of young women report that they struggle to get and pay for birth control. The closest planned parenthood is over 11 miles from me. If I didn't have a car, I would have no way to get there, as I don't have public transporation in my area.

That is if a clinic is even open for some people. Sicne birth control clinics have been taking huge budget cuts to the point of closing down.

Lets not mention the GOP who wants to remove insurance from having to pay for birth control at all. Mine is 27 a month, WITH insurance.

Typical pro lifer, addresses the symptom, but not the reason for the problem to begin with.

But oh, financial considerations aren't a part of it, right?

People murder each other over financial considerations all the time. A husband murders a wife that wants a divorce because of the money she will take from him. A wife murders a husband to collect his life insurance. A man murders another man because he owes him money.Money is not a justification for murder.

These crimes have nothing to do with the need for abortion. Completely different issues. Maybe these people should of been aborted.

Money is not a justification for murder.

It's sad that you value money over life.

Raising children in poverty is not a life.

How many children have you adopted? Have you spoken to legislators about providing a sex education to kids in poor areas? Have you spoken against legislation that wants to remove birth control coverage for insurance? Have you donated to any non profits that assist scared, pregnant teens? Have you donated to any organization to provide birth control access to impoverished areas?

Or are you just going around, painting everyone a witch, and thinking that it is all easy as pie?

reply to post by Golf66

The skin cells(or any other cell in the human body) we shed all day long have human DNA also but they can't live without the rest of the body to support feed them nutrients - just like a developing zygote or fetus.

Should my skin cells have rights too? I hope I don't go to jail for the booger I put under my seat in grade school.

Nothing like distoring science to justify your beliefs.

Please quote me where I claim that I want to protect human cells. I am talking about human organisms, as a whole, not single human cells. I love the depths of pro-choice people will go to in order to deny they support killing human life. You want to feign ignorance, just like others, in order to justify your beliefs.

Just say it out loud one time...you support killing babies.

You know they do offer courses in biology for free on the internet, I suggest many of you go take advantage of that.

Who will support the legions and legions of unwanted babies BTW? You are free to give to all the charities you want but as a taxpayer I want none of the burden of the unwanted masses of children.

And again, money trumps life.

What a sick mindset.



Back to the "human cell" irrationality that you were talking about.

One question...do you believe a single human cell is a human???

If not, why are you trying to argue that...because it definately isn't something I'm arguing...but you are trying to say I am....how dishonest of you. :shk:

Sure.

In 2004, there were 10.5 abortions per 1,000 white women ages 15 to 44, compared with 28 per 1,000 Hispanic women of that age and 50 per 1,000 black women. That translates into approximately 1 percent of white women having an abortion in 2004, compared with 3 percent of Hispanic women and 5 percent of black women. Jones attributed that to the focus on reducing teenage pregnancy and on increasing contraceptive use.

reply to post by luciddream



washingtonpost.com

If you read the beginning of the article, it says that demographics have changed in recent years, so if a site is pulling older informaiton, it will look different.

Researchers prove fetuses have memories, know mothers’ voices, and have sense of taste, touch and smell

24-Week-Old Fetus

(Posted 08/28/09 www.RemnantNewspaper.com) They weigh less than 3 pounds, usually, and are perhaps 15 inches long. But “they can remember,” reports Jennifer Harper of The Washington Times (July 16, 2009):
www.remnantnewspaper.com...
The unborn have memories, according to medical researchers who used sound and vibration stimulation, combined with sonography, to reveal that the human fetus displays short-term memory from at least 30 weeks gestation – or about two months before they are born.

"In addition, results indicated that 34-week-old fetuses are able to store information and retrieve it four weeks later," said the research, which was released Wednesday.

These findings were obtained by scientists from the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Maastricht University Medical Centre and the University Medical Centre at St. Radboud, both in the Netherlands, after a study employing “gentle but precise” sensory stimulation was made of 100 healthy pregnant women and their fetuses:

On five occasions during the last eight weeks of their pregnancies, the women received a series of one-second buzzes on their bellies with a "fetal vibroacoustic stimulator," a hand-held diagnostic device used to gauge an unborn baby's heart rate and general well-being.

The baby's responses – primarily eye, mouth and body movements – were closely monitored over the weeks with ultrasound imaging to gauge "fetal learning" patterns. The researchers found that the babies acclimated themselves to the sounds and vibrations to the point that they no longer bothered to respond – a process known as "habituation." "The stimulus is then accepted as 'safe' " by the babies, the study said.

In addition, the researchers discovered that the babies’ recognition skills improved as they grew older. Fetuses in the 34 to 36 week age group became “familiar with the hum outside the womb”:

"It seems like every day we find out marvelous new things about the development of unborn children. We hope that this latest information helps people realize more clearly that the unborn are members of the human family with amazing capabilities and capacities like these built in from the moment of conception," said Randall K. O'Bannon, director of education and research for the National Right to Life Educational Trust Fund.

No comment

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Yet another example of trying to compare a developed human compared to a zygote. We have gone over this already.

But if you want to make family planning choices for other people, you should be prepared to pay for that disabled child, since it is so easy.

Yes, and you still havent been able to define exactly when that developed zygote becomes a human being. What is it that seperates the two and when does it happen? LOgically?

Originally posted by nixie_nox

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

I have never heard of an abortion being conducted one month before they are born. Only in China.

Infants are killed either overtly or through negligence all of the time. Just google "dumpster" and "baby." What makes one murder or child abuse and the other not? The justifications may all be the same, but we treat them both differently. Why?

As I explained to you before, a fetus is completely dependant on living off of only human, and only that human for survival, a baby that is born is now independant, and others can take care of it, and shortly will contribute to society, It also acts human. That is why then she can be held for murder. And if anyone else kills that child, they will be held for murder.

The baby that is born is not independent...it will die in short order if not being taken care of. A baby at eight months gestation is exactly the same as a baby just born at nine months...the only difference is weight. Why is one human and one is not? It is not logically consistent to say that one is human and one is not. What if you have an 8 month preemie who is born but a nine month fetus still in the womb? Is the 9 month child less a human than the one that is out even though it is 1 month less developed?
If dependence makes you non-human, then if you are on a respirator and anesthesia you are not human? I can pull the plug and not be charged with murder?

It is not logical to state that it is independence or dependence that defines a human being.

reply to post by nixie_nox

You have yet to answer my question, are you willing to pay for all these women to raise children? ARe you willing to give me $235,000 dollars to raise a child?

You keep avoiding that question.

I haven't avoided it, I answered it last time.

If a women isn't ready for the financial responsibility...she should keep her legs closed. I'm sure you would give the same advice to men...would you not???

One thing I don't advocate is that you should kill a baby to absolve yourself from your responsibility...that is your position.

Are you actually condoning it?

No, you missed the point...as you have in most of this conversation.

I see what this really is, it is the old witch hunt, it is all the woman's fault. Last paragraph you acknowledge that men feel entitled to spousal sex, but the next you say women can't control their urges?

Women can't control always control getting pregnant either.

Oh look...now you are twisting my words....how unpredictable.

Women can control not getting pregnant...just as men can control not getting a women pregnant. It really isn't that hard...you are either horribly irresponsible or a moron if you think it is very difficult to not get pregnant.

Yet you don't want to take any responsiblity for children that people don't want. You want people to have them, but you don't care what quality of life, the status of their education or health, after that. That is no better than abortion my dear.

Who says I don't...raise my taxes, set up programs for them...I'm all for it.

And yes...life is better than death. Keep lying to yourself and pretend you are doing these kids a favor by killing them.

You didn't answer my question...is your life perfect??? If not...maybe you should just off yourself...you seem to think that is the preferable route.

Spoken like the privelaged middle class who has no idea what it is like to be poor or a minority.

Too funny...you are psychic in more than one way...huh???

And the majority of people that have abortions and unintended pregnancies, may not have a choice about sex to begin with, don't have access to family planning, and even if they did, they may not be able to afford it. Many don't have cars or transportation. They rely on public transporation which doesn't necessarily drop them off at a family planning center.

Hey, look at that...another completly unsoruced opinion stated as fact.

I'm still waiting for proof from your other completely unproven claims. You just can't make stuff up...I'll call you on it.

Typical pro lifer, addresses the symptom, but not the reason for the problem to begin with.

The reason for the problem is that people are irresponsible...plain and simple.

I'm sorry that you view people as base animals that are sex addicts and can't think logically about the choices they make...not to mention you keep saying this is mainly a problem with minorities...which is a pretty racist statement. Those stupid minorities...they just don't know any better...huh...they are like animals...right???

These crimes have nothing to do with the need for abortion. Completely different issues. Maybe these people should of been aborted.

They are exactly the same issue...you are claiming financial burden is a perfectly legit reason to kill a baby...those examples are no different.

You, like ever other pro-choice person I have talked to, desperately want to dehumanize the unborn baby so you don't have to admit to yourself that you support killing babies. This is why you have equated a human to a fish

Raising children in poverty is not a life.

Then we should just kill them all...mercy killings...right???

I'm amazed at your psychic powers...you have the ability to know that an unborn child would rather die than have an opportunity at life...because according to you, their life is going to suck and they will wish they were dead.

I'm sorry nixie...but all you have done is rant illogically....denied science...distored science...and make wild unproven claims.

All because you don't want to admit you support killing babies.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

In addition to that, I'd also like a source for her claim of:

And women do keep babies in this situation, and they are usually running from county to county, collecting welfare benefits, to survive, and not get killed by an enraged male who is the father.

These are both complete hyperbole to justify her belief that murdering babies is a good thing.

And denying that there isn't abuse?

You look worse with every post. To think I used to like you.

Other then myself personally seeing these women come into work everyday:

According to the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, women experience about 4.8 million intimate partner-related physical assaults and rapes every year.4 Less than 20 percent of battered women sought medical treatment following an injury.5

now.org

According to USDOJ, there were 188,000 rapes in 2010.

Between 70-90% rapes thought to go unreported …and 94% of reported cases don’t end in a conviction

University of Surrey

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Please quote me where I claim that I want to protect human cells. I am talking about human organisms, as a whole, not single human cells. I love the depths of pro-choice people will go to in order to deny they support killing human life. You want to feign ignorance, just like others, in order to justify your beliefs.

If you promote the idea that life begins at conceptions, and that the fertilized cell, the ovum, needs protection. If you propose that it should be bestowed all the rights of a fully developed human being, then yes, you are wanting to protect a single human cell.

fertilized ovum - (genetics) the diploid cell resulting from the union of a haploid spermatozoon and ovum (including the organism that develops from that cell)

If the fertilized egg is a person, then birth control pills, IUD's and the morning after pills are all forms of murder.

reply to post by luciddream


We were referring to third trimester abortions.

reply to post by Golf66


No I wasn't raped and forced to keep it...you didn't read what I wrote.

Please go back and try again.

I don't believe in entitlements either and I don't believe in killing babies.

And like I said...it's not just one way or the other.

The problem is things have been made to easy for everyone to find a way out of their mistakes and irresponsibility.

Since when did everyone think life should be a breeze?

Their are numerous other options other than murder as birth control including resisting the urge to hump everything you see and adoption.

The morning after pill, etc.

This silly argument of one way or the other is illogical and just a justification to keep killing babies and keep funding Planned Parenthood.

It also devalues life.

If you look at the argument that it's not a life because it can't survive on it's own then a great % of society could be killed off.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
Sure.

In 2004, there were 10.5 abortions per 1,000 white women ages 15 to 44, compared with 28 per 1,000 Hispanic women of that age and 50 per 1,000 black women. That translates into approximately 1 percent of white women having an abortion in 2004, compared with 3 percent of Hispanic women and 5 percent of black women. Jones attributed that to the focus on reducing teenage pregnancy and on increasing contraceptive use.

reply to post by luciddream

 

washingtonpost.com

If you read the beginning of the article, it says that demographics have changed in recent years, so if a site is pulling older informaiton, it will look different.

The two of you are pulling two different statistics.

He is pulling statistics that show that the majority of abortions are performed on white women.

You are pulling statisitcs that show that minorities have a higher rate of abortion among their own population.


They are both correct. The majority of abortions are performed on white women, but minorities have a higher rate of abortion.

While undergoing spina bifida surgery in utero, 21-week-old fetus Samuel Armas grips the finger of Dr. Joseph Bruner through the incision
youtu.be...



Hand of hope,

youtu.be...



Some people have hearts of stone.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


It isn't a fetus until cell diferentiation occurrs. First it is a zygote, then an embryo.When differentiation occurs, then it starts taking on human like qualities.

Genitals don't even develop until 8 weeks. They can't even feel pain till the 28th week of pregnancy.

reply to post by beezzer


THE HUMAN FETUS IS A PARASITE, WHY WOULD ANY OTHER UNWANTED ORGANISM HAVE DOMAIN OVER YOUR BODY?


You can't be forced into donating your kidney, so why should a woman be forced into donating her body to an unwanted fetus; the man's say is moot, because he has no authority over her body, either.

galerouth.blogspot.com...

reply to post by Golf66


We see responsibility differently than some, I think. Responsibility is something to be embraced, in my humble opinion. It is not something to be ignored, put off, pushed aside. When a woman becomes pregnant, she is initially held responsible (as is the father) for the result. The child, whether pre-natal or post will still require care and should hold to the central theme of respect for the individual rights.

I guess I see things differently than some. But just because I see things differently, does not mean that it is wrong.