It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by NavyDoc
Not the same. Silly prol-life arguement.
Pro lifers like to use this tactic but it is comparing apples to oranges.
Anyone can take responsiblity for a developed child. a developed child is dependant on many people, and any person can take care of that child.
A fetus does not have any autonomy whatsoever, and must hijack a woman's body for 9.5 months in order to gain it, and no one else but that woman can take care of that fetus. By definition, it is a parasite. It id ependant on only one person. Their only existence is defined by living in that one person.
So by your definition, if that fetus has rights, you are removing the rights of one person and forcing them to take care of another.
So if a developed child is the same as an embryo, then the government will also be able to take children, and place them in the care of who they want to force to take care of them.
Because by your definition, that embryo has a right to another human being.
As much as you would like it to, it doesn't talk, doesn't walk, doesn't think, doesn't feel, doesn't love or hate, or contain any qualities that make it human.
In order to have a right to life, you must have a life first.
Now since these gangs like to engage in war and kill each other off for stupid things like honor and territory, how much work have you done to protect the young children that are roped into gangs, because the don't have any other choice to survive?
edit on 24-8-2012 by nixie_nox because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by NavyDoc
Originally posted by nixie_nox
Let me ask the pro lifers this:
Are you so adamant about your cause, that would you be willing to pay for prenatal care for every pregnant woman, and for the medical,food, and education for every child that is brought into this country?
1. We kind of do that already.
2. I've never seen fiscal issues seen as a justification for killing someone. If the fetus is a human life, it should not matter if it is a financial hardship because we do not accept finances as a reason to kill a person.
3. The underlying issue is not how hard it is or difficult it is. THe underlying issue is, do we or do we not have a human being? If not, then there is no more moral problem than getting any other elective surgery. If it does, then all of the excuses of convenience are not consistent with how and when human life should be taken.
Originally posted by nixie_nox
Originally posted by NavyDoc
Originally posted by nixie_nox
Let me ask the pro lifers this:
Are you so adamant about your cause, that would you be willing to pay for prenatal care for every pregnant woman, and for the medical,food, and education for every child that is brought into this country?
1. We kind of do that already.
2. I've never seen fiscal issues seen as a justification for killing someone. If the fetus is a human life, it should not matter if it is a financial hardship because we do not accept finances as a reason to kill a person.
3. The underlying issue is not how hard it is or difficult it is. THe underlying issue is, do we or do we not have a human being? If not, then there is no more moral problem than getting any other elective surgery. If it does, then all of the excuses of convenience are not consistent with how and when human life should be taken.
When I am shelling out 200 bucks a week for part time daycare, I don't recall you ever helping me with that. When my son needs dental care, are you going to help me with that? I have to find a way to pay for school clothes, do you mind giving me some money?
Kids need more than just formula and diapers. And it doesn't stop, even at 18.
And regarding #2, that is the main reason that women do not keep pregnancies,they do not have the means to seek care, or raise that child. Since you are so adamant that every child has a right to life, in order to make sure that they reach birth healthily, they need prenatal care. A woman needs doctor visits, in the case of diabetes or preclampsia, she needs to be hospitalized. Then you need to replace whatever income that she is losing while being in the hospital.
So since you are forcing a woman to have this child, are you going to pay her rent and utilities that she is losing while in the hospital? Are you going to buy the cradle, car seat, diapers, crib, clothes and bedding that she will now need.
If she has other children, and she dies as a result of the pregnancy, are you going to pay to raise those children for the rest of their lives, since she can no longer provide for them?
Now if that child has disabilities, are you going to pay for retrofitting the house, for the lost income of taking care of a disabled child? Their extensive medical care that might not be covered by insurance if she had any?
See, it is not a matter of conveinence, it is a matter of life. Not only for that woman, but for all who depend on her.
It is not a matter of conveinance for a fetus to get pre natal care, it is a matter of health. It is not a matter of conveinance to have the things it needs to live. It is not a matter of conveinance for it to have a home and for the mother to have an income.
And it doesn't have a life afterall without any of those.
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by OutKast Searcher
*laughs* no one elects to have an abortion simply because. It is usually because they are not able to take care of it.
On the flipside, every baby that is born isn't destined to be a doctor. Your arguement is illogical.
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by OutKast Searcher
It costs $235,000 to raise a child with just basic necessities. I would like him to go to college, so that is another $60,000. So I would like to have another but don't have the financial means to do so.But since finances aren't an issue, then you can give me $235,000.
But if that is too much, I will be willing to do a payment plan with you.
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by NavyDoc
I have never heard of an abortion being conducted one month before they are born. Only in China.
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by NavyDoc
You can't come up with a suitable counterpoint, so you come up with euthanasia.
In the USA, where nearly half of pregnancies are unintended, and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion [1] , there are over 3,000 abortions per day. Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies in the USA (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion. [2]
According to WHO, every year in the world an estimated 40-50 million women faced with an unplanned pregnancy decide to have an abortion. This corresponds to approximately 125,000 abortions per day. .
Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by OutKast Searcher
*laughs* no one elects to have an abortion simply because. It is usually because they are not able to take care of it.
On the flipside, every baby that is born isn't destined to be a doctor. Your arguement is illogical.
Please explain what is illogical about my argument. I never claimed every baby born is destined for anything...that was you who claimed some psychic power to know their life is going to be horrible.
I'm sorry that I called you on your illogical psychic powers...but don't try to turn it around on me.
You are the one trying to equate a human to a fish...not me.edit on 24-8-2012 by OutKast Searcher because: (no reason given)
I am so sorry that science eludes you. That zygotes and embryos look like most species of zygotes and embryos until dna starts the differentiation between species.
So if all zygotes and embryos are the same, then they all have a right to life, not just the human ones.
What a great life for a kid!
Those minorities that are born, have a much lower chance at an education or success.
This is common sense, I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by OutKast Searcher
It costs $235,000 to raise a child with just basic necessities. I would like him to go to college, so that is another $60,000. So I would like to have another but don't have the financial means to do so.But since finances aren't an issue, then you can give me $235,000.
But if that is too much, I will be willing to do a payment plan with you.
I didn't tell you to have sex.
How about taking a little responsibility for your own actions.
And btw...killing a baby isn't considered taking responsibility.
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by NavyDoc
You can't come up with a suitable counterpoint, so you come up with euthanasia.
seriously?
If everyone has the right to life, then people need money to live. Are you willing to pay for it?
Originally posted by NavyDoc
Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by NavyDoc
I have never heard of an abortion being conducted one month before they are born. Only in China.
Infants are killed either overtly or through negligence all of the time. Just google "dumpster" and "baby." What makes one murder or child abuse and the other not? The justifications may all be the same, but we treat them both differently. Why?
You claim that financial reasons are not the reason to have an abortion. I am telling you it is.
You want to remove family planning decisions from women and cite that finances isn't a valid reason for it. Since you want to force women to have babies they can't raise, I am showing you that it isn't that easy.
But oh, financial considerations aren't a part of it, right?